Skip to main content

104 replies

Should academics ALWAYS come first?

S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
It's very common on this site to read advice about putting academics first and making sure our young men have a degree to fall back on when the long odds against making it to the majors eventually put an end to their baseball dreams.

I wonder if we aren't doing our kids a disservice by discouraging their dreams and steering them toward "safe" lives with practical degrees that lead to steady jobs. What if that's not the life they want, and what if they would rather pursue their dreams full out instead of doing what we risk-averse parents expect of them? Aren't we limiting their development as men when we tell them not to chase their dreams? Is it wrong for a young man to put baseball ahead of academics if he's willing to accept the consequences of that choice?

When my son made his college decision this summer, he was initially tempted by an offer from a prestigious academic school to which he couldn't have gained admission on the strength of his grades and test scores without an assist from the baseball coach. However, he eventually realized he wanted a school with good academics, but not one with great academics. Then he surprised me further by telling me he wants to make acceptable progress toward a degree, but he's quite willing to leave school after three or four years without completing it. His reasoning? He really, really wants to find out how good a ball player he can be. He intends to be 100% committed to baseball in college, and he doesn't want an overly rigorous academic load to get in the way of his baseball development. He doesn't ever want to be a middle aged guy wondering how good he might have been. He says he can handle the possibilities of never starting in college or not getting drafted or not rising in the minors--but only if he knows he's given baseball his absolute best shot. He can accept failure, but only if that's the result of total effort. He's willing to be the 25 year old finishing his degree after a pro career didn't pan out, but he's not willing to reduce his time in the weight room if that's what it takes to graduate "on time." He can always go back to finish school, but he only has one chance to be a ball player.

Even now as he begins his senior year in high school, he's not focused on academics. He does just enough work to get a 3.5 GPA to keep me off his back, he takes just enough advanced courses to keep me from saying he has a slacker schedule, and he spends all his spare time working out because that's what he really wants to do.

As a dad who did put school first and played football to no distinction at a seriously rigorous academic-centered school, I'm starting to think he might be showing greater wisdom by putting the baseball goals he has chosen for himself ahead of the academic goals I might have chosen for him. I'm really surprised to find myself respecting his decision.

Maybe academics shouldn't always come first. Maybe it's okay to make school take a back seat for a few years.

What do others think?
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

M monstor34410+ posts
Academics should DEFINITELY come first...But I feel like in your son's situation he chose a school where he has still established academics as his top priority in that he is going to a good school while at the same time fulfilling his criteria in other areas. I think there is a difference between using athletics to get into the most prestigious school possible and going somewhere that suits your son the best while at the same time providing a solid education. I think he made the right choice. In my mind problems only arise when a kid goes to a school that is below where his academics dictate he should be just because a school is offering him the college baseball opportunity.

If you don't mind saying though, what top academic school offered him and what school did he end up picking?
Last edited by monstor344
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.
First, Not an either or...Every situation and decision making process is unique. There is no pefect template...no universal rules. The factors in any decison are many....cost, goals, social, geographical, housing, alumni network, visibility, financial, financial aid, passion, emotional, academic, family needs, baseball, coaching, life experience, gut, IMO you and your son have to decide what is the best mix for your family. What my seem wrong to one may be the best fit for another. You have to honestly and realistically know your son and his passion and goals, your family, the program, your goals, your limitations, your finances.

Second, As a result there are not always simple either or answers, for the vast majority the decision is a series of trade offs, pro's and con's...which is one of the reasons that it is so hard to decide...only a fortunate few get exactly what they want. While it may seem at times that the majority do...that is not the case.

Third, even with the best laid plans and exhaustive research what you see, may not, in the end be what you get. Regardless of the decision you have to be ready to adapt, adjust and deal with it. The decison is most often not an ending point but rather a starting one. Like the DJ says, The hits just keep on comin'...

Cool
.
fenwaysouthfenwaysouth10,000+ posts
As a parent, my job is to mentor and guide my son to become all they he can be based on his strengths/weaknesses and long term goals. I feel very passionate about that for my 18 year son as well as my two younger ones.

Based upon everything swampboy has shared with us, I know there are schools out there that will meet his son's needs of baseball first and education second. I agree for some kids the preferred path may be to pursue professional sports while others want to become Drs, lawyers, engineers, etc.... Opportunities to go down a professional sports path is just as slight as an opportunity to pursue a prestiguous university degree. Again, our job as parents is to help guide them and show them the differences when appropriate. Show your son the path where he has the best chance for success, and he can understand the risks & rewards.
Last edited by fenwaysouth
wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
This question becomes much more difficult when athletics come easily, and academics are much harder for your kid. An athletic career is so high risk, that you just don't want to succumb to the temptation of letting go of the fall-back plan. For those kids, we may be saying "academics must come first", when we're really meaning "you just can't take your shot at athletics without securing your education as well".
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by observer44:
.
First, Not an either or...Every situation and decision making process is unique. There is no pefect template...no universal rules. The factors in any decison are many....cost, goals, social, geographical, housing, alumni network, visibility, financial, financial aid, passion, emotional, academic, family needs, baseball, coaching, life experience, gut, IMO you and your son have to decide what is the best mix for your family. What my seem wrong to one may be the best fit for another. You have to honestly and realistically know your son and his passion and goals, your family, the program, your goals, your limitations, your finances.

Second, As a result there are not always simple either or answers, for the vast majority the decision is a series of trade offs, pro's and con's...which is one of the reasons that it is so hard to decide...only a fortunate few get exactly what they want. While it may seem at times that the majority do...that is not the case.

Third, even with the best laid plans and exhaustive research what you see, may not, in the end be what you get. Regardless of the decision you have to be ready to adapt, adjust and deal with it. The decison is most often not an ending point but rather a starting one. Like the DJ says, The hits just keep on comin'...

Cool
.



This topic comes up here from time to time and it always interests me and usually leads to strong passions on both sides of the argument...

That said... I think many view baseball as a frivolous activity where I am not sure it is any different (or less worthy of a pursuit) than other forms of entertainment. We have members here that argue that academics is first and foremost yet they spend countless hours here on a baseball website. I think it is more important than they are willing to admit.

I spent many trips in the LA area and there are many degreed kids out there waiting tables in hopes of becoming the next Tom Cruise or Julia Roberts. How many consider using a UCLA film school degree to wait tables a frivolous activity? Is pursuing an acting career frivolous? Is pursing a career in film (behind the scenes) also frivolous after the dream of appearing on the "big" screen has ended.

We often see advice here that kids should pick a college as if baseball were not involved. What if your kid wanted to be a musician or an artist? Would you tell them to pick a school assuming music or art were not involved? Moreover, why do kids almost ALWAYS transfer when the baseball does not work out to their liking (even though they picked their school as if baseball was not involved)? All rhetorical questions to be sure but there is no shame in admitting that baseball is a worthwhile activity imho. Not everyone gets to play in the big leagues but there are other ways of making baseball a satisfying and worthwhile career (for those whose passions steer them that way). Like ob44 said above, these are deeply personal questions that need answered and they cannot be answered from the outside or from a set of pre-crafted rules (e.g., academics ALWAYS comes first).
Last edited by ClevelandDad
PD PA Dino500+ posts
quote:
I wonder if we aren't doing our kids a disservice by discouraging their dreams and steering them toward "safe" lives with practical degrees that lead to steady jobs.


I don't think the two necessarily go together. You can get a practical degree that will lead to a steady job without sacrificing your dreams.

As far as the premise of your post.....academics aren't that important and can take a back seat....I can't disagree more.

The student-athlete model is already falling apart at many schools because the institutions themselves are undermining it with compromises. The student-athlete's intellectual development is hugely important. I would suggest the following:

No athletic scholarships period. Only academic based scholarships for student-athletes.

Penalties for low graduation rates.

Athletic elegibility tied to academic progress.

College is suppose to be a higher level of education, not an excuse to "chase" dreams. You can't eat dreams, dreams don't provide health care, dreams don't pay taxes, mortgages or provide for your kids. An education will probably do all those things. You can't count on the dream any more than you would winning the powerball. You still buy the tickets....but you don't count on it.

My son, a student-athlete, has a baseball dream. But he has a committment and responsibility to lay a foundation for his future. One that can be trusted to hold the framework of his life, and his future family. I hope he takes that seriously.

There are parts of what you wrote that make me believe your son understands that too. He's not cut out for Stanford or MIT but he's still going to get that degree. So in the end I don't think your thoughts are that bold. A college education is so expensive.....you got to take the academics seriously or why go at all?
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
PA Dino - excellent arguments for why acdemics should always come first...

What if your son wanted to be a musician? Would you discourage that? The odds are slim and none that he becomes the next Harry Connick Jr. and a multi-millionaire. Suppose that is his ultimate dream. Suppose he falls short of that and winds up as a music teacher who occasionally plays weekend gigs in a wedding band. Suppose that does not lead to a wealthy life-style but one that is completely able to pay for all those real-world things you mention above. Suppose that completely makes him happy. Would you discourage that or should he go into something practical like accounting, engineering, or management - even though his passions drove him otherwise?
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
Good discussion so far. Thanks.

Observer 44's comment about it not being an either/or makes sense. So does PA Dino's about needing to lay a foundation. I would definitely have a different view if he decided to skip college altogether or pick a fluff major and coast through college. He does intend to make progress toward a real degree, but he's going to take close to the minimum full-time load as opposed to the schedule needed to graduate in four years. So I guess you could say he's laying the academic part of the foundation slowly. If his baseball playing ends early because of injury or insufficient talent, he won't have to start laying that foundation from scratch. There will already be some well-laid blocks in place.

WraggArm's comment about what comes easily probably applies in terms of desire, not aptitude. He could probably excel at either school or baseball, but not both at the same time. If you're equally good at two things, but really enjoy one of them, it's easier to do the one you enjoy. So he has chosen to make the trade off of trying to excel at baseball while keeping academic options viable, just not primary.

PA Dino: You almost got the premise of my original post. I'm not saying that academics aren't important, but I am saying they can take a back seat in certain circumstances. (Taking a back seat means they're still part of the journey: they're not driving, but they're not getting kicked out of the car either.) I come from a family that placed a great deal of emphasis on academics--I, my parents, and all my brothers and sisters have advanced degrees from respected schools (Cornell, Wash U/St. Louis, Tulane, Rensselaer Polytechnic, etc). My oldest son was a national merit scholar and got a full-tuition academic scholarship. Academics are important. I just think in the case of this particular kid, putting pressure on him to go to a similarly prestigious academic school and graduate "on time" isn't the best thing for him.
Last edited by Swampboy
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
I wonder if we aren't doing our kids a disservice by discouraging their dreams and steering them toward "safe" lives with practical degrees that lead to steady jobs.


Playing pro ball can be a steady job, but is it all that practical? Lot depends on how each individual sees it.

College is by far very challenging, with baseball it is all the more so. Working towards that "safer" degree isn't going to be as easy as one would expect. I do beleive that many can just get by in HS and do well, then struggle at the college level. Your son will have to work in the classroom just as hard as he will in the field. There are a lot of players that get into some college academic programs because they play great baseball, and then realize that they are academically way over their heads, I don't agree that this is always appropriate (getting into a college where it may become a struggle), and I guess so does the NCAA, as they have come down hard regarding academic progress for all student athletes.

DK was an excellent HS student, his first semester at college, he was pretty lost. Big adjustment, he found out that he had to "work" for better grades. He had to learn what most others do, to find the balance between the field, weightroom, classroom, study hall and social activities. You can'ty play if you don't perform in the classroom, it's hard to just "get by". JMO.

That also becomes the time when those that pursue the "dream" often get a reality check, that is when many players realize that working towards that degree (whichever they choose or where ever they chooose to do it) brings on a new meaning. Without going into detail, your son will find that as he progresses through college. Priorities change for many, you'd be surprised.

We talk about the quest to make it to the highest level as following your dreams. I beleive that one should never give up that dream, but plan with goals in mind to pursue that dream, your son has taken the first step that he feels is the corret choice for him. In other words, if all else fails, he will have his degree or part of to fall back on when the time comes that he either decides to walk away or that decision is made for him. Or, as often happens he gets hurt, which is the biggest of why why most fail before they even make the 40 man roster.

I often times look at the bios that son pitches against, 27,28, 29, 30 year olds still playing that have yet to make the 40 man, I am not always sure that is still for pursuit of the dream, rather they just never had an alternative to consider. This shows how academics took the back seat, and trust me, those at that age, married with children will find it difficult to begin their college education.

I also believe that when a player is in HS academics should always come first (talent usually takes care of itself). Academics opens many doors for the player, it can mean the difference between playing at a program that will help develop him further or not and even give him more exposure towards his future. For the college drafted junior, your GPA in college may even mean the difference in how much money a team will give you to finish when you return.

Either way, your son has decided upon pursuing his dream though a goal (go to college) which would best fit his situation and his desires, that is what is more important and that he has a plan B is too.
Last edited by TPM
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
I don't see it as an either or situation either. If he does things right he can get a good, quality education while still working his butt off to try and make it. What's wrong with being an educated struggling minor leaguer that's holding on? You can have both and when / if baseball doesn't pan out he's not going to have to delay starting the next phase of his life while he makes up for time lost. By having an education he can transition to the next phase with minimal trouble.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
It is very much an individual choice. It can certainly constrain a student athlete. My son turned down MIT because he didn't feel he was capable of competing there academically, he didn't want to be on the East Coast, and his dream is to play D1.

He's attending a JC and doing well with solid courses so far. He still wants to go D1 but he also insists that he go to a school that will allow him to pursure his major and not limit his ability to finish school once he gets there. A couple of the D1 schools he did camps at made if fairly clear that they would decide what courses the players took and that baseball would be the priority. That isn't going to be easy to find and at some point my guess is that some compromises will have to be made. In the meantime we'll see how he does athletically and academically for the next year or two and have a better data base to work off of.
Last edited by CADad
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
I don't think we're getting to the root of my question. So far, folks seem okay with his choice if they think he's staying on track for a degree and don't like it if they think he's not. That's not what I'm really asking.

I'm really asking if a young man is always better prepared for life by obtaining a degree that makes him initially acceptable to grad schools or hiring managers and whether he might actually learn more from the process to totally committing himself to a goal he probably won't attain. Even in the failure he's likely to encounter, might he not learn more about himself, what he's capable of doing, and what it takes to pursue grand goals than if he just built a resume? Isn't this the difference between making a living and choosing how to live? Between setting your own course and letting others do it for you? Frankly, in the economy our kids might see over the next generation, learning how to operate without a safety net might be the best preparation a young man could have, anyway. (Or is this just my mid-life crisis that I'm projecting on to him?)
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Swampboy,
There isn't one right answer. There are a lot of different paths to success and to failure and the end result is more dependent on the persistence of the person taking the path than which path is taken.

It would be nice if all of our sons could get a full ride to Stanford but that isn't in the "Cards" for most of our sons so we simply muddle along and somehow most of the kids will come out allright.
Last edited by CADad
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
I prefer academics first and baseball second but I also agree that that adage does not hold for all kids.

Without baseball I don't believe my guy would have even thought about college. He was a terrible hs student and it cost him more than a few college situations.

He finally found a spot at a D-I program---and played four years , got his degree and had a better college GPA than he did in HS.

Academics does not necessarily mean elite high end academic colleges--not to me at least-- to me it means getting a degree

Also I like to see a kid in a school where he doesn't need to struggle in the classroom and be concerned about staying eligible. As one coach said to me " if I get him in can we be sure he will stay eligible because of the strenuous academics?"

Too many of us are hung up on the "elite" colleges---don't be--it is no failure if your son attends a school that does not have the reputation of a Stanford or and IVY--it is a failure if your son does get the chance to get a degree
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
Good discussion so far.

Thrit and many others make valid points.

As Thrit said some kids would not go to college if it were not for baseball.And there are many kids like that.

My own son doesnt care for school.He is smart but doesnt particularly care for academics.He is getting a basic degree in Sociology.Because I do want him to graduate in four years.

Swamp mentions he doesnt want his son to be confined to a FLUFF degree and it doesnt matter if he graduates in four years.See for us it does.My son is at a Private school and I can not afford a fifth year.My son has no idea what he wants to do outside of baseball.So a basic degree from USC in four years can give him a starting point.At that time he can go to a less expensive school and get a minor in business or a masters in something if that is what he desires after his baseball days are over.
If you look at rosters across the country many baseball players major in Psychology, Sociology(look at Stanfords roster, at least 12-15 players are majoring in Sociology).Communications is another big one.Many say you cant get jobs with those degrees.That is not true.My daughter has a Psychology degree and her first job was a financial aide officer at a college.

Unless your son wants a very specific degree such as engineering etc,many players take as you say fluff degrees.

I can tell you Sociology or any degree from USC where my son goes sure isnt fluff.16 units a semester is tough.They are required to take 16.Some drop down if they struggle, but most finish 16 units.

To me for most boys playing college baseball they will get a basic degree.My hats off to those that can take engineering, or pre med and do school.My own son couldnt handle those types of classes and pursue baseball.

There isnt a recipe that all fit into.My son struggled to get it all done with his Fluff degree last year.But he managed and did well.He has come to relize after having surgery how important his degree is.

College baseball is tough for most these boys.Until your son has done it for a year you really have no idea what it is like.You can read about it, but it isnt the same as watching your son go through it.Many players start out with BIG degrees in mind and many of those end up having to change.

I really dont think any degree is a fluff degree.It is a starting point for life.They learn to write and communicate and learn about many things.They need skills to survive in entry level jobs.Most will start out with entry level jobs even with a degree.

Swamp, I think your son made a wise decsion for him.My own could of went to a less academic school and it would of been easier academically then where he is at.But he decided to go to USC and even not liking school, many would of thought why choose that.

He felt that a degree from USC would help him with his resume.But dont think for a moment he has given up his dream of playing at the next level.Most of these boys willnot play at the next level.

I agree with Cleveland dad, so many parents spend a lot of time on a baseball site and say academics are most important.Then they omly want D1 baseball.If academics really are most important there are outstanding D3 schools that offer great academics and good baseball.

I think many parents want their boys to play D1 baseball.Many of our boys want D1 baseball.That is fine.But D1 baseball is a business, and it is about winning.The schedule is rigorous and demanding.And many leave after one year.Many fail their first year.Many cant deal with more than a basic degree.It is way toughr than most know.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
With maximum effort there's about a 1% chance of earning a living in MLB baseball. With maximum effort there's a 100% chance of earning a living in the business world. It's great to dream. It's also good to be rational and not delusional.

Through high school a kid should be giving maximum effort to academics. If a kid is a jaw dropping baseball stud I can understand selecting an ASU or similar college over Ivy due to baseball. If a kid wants to play college baseball I can see selecting a college one notch down academically that provides a better baseball option.

What I can't see is choosing Whatamattah U just to play baseball. I told my son no way, no how am I paying 50K a year for some BS school just so he can say he played college baseball.

Talk about tough choices
Last edited by RJM
KrakatoaKrakatoa1,000+ posts
I often wonder if by "academics", we should really be saying "academic reputation", because there are bad profs everywhere. Being at a great "academic" school doesn't automatically mean that the student will have a slate free of bad profs (smart as hell, but difficulty with communicating, huge work loads, playing favorites, sometimes even English is a challenge, would rather be doing research, huge classes taught/graded by TA's, etc etc).

Another reason why ALL things (listed nicely by obs44) really need to be factored in...."academic reputation" being just one of those factors.
Last edited by Krakatoa
ILVBBILVBB1,000+ posts
Our kids will be people far longer than they will be baseball players. Everything that goes into helping them grow to become good, productive people is important. For most that will mean and education; for some their education will be limited to baseball. Each family will have a focus based upon their traditions, dreams, aspirations and beliefs; not everyone is the same and as such their is no best answer for the question "should academics come first?"
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
In the big picture there aren't going to be any right or wrong answers. This is a subject my responses will be based on conditioned environment. A parent whose family members has always attended top academic institutions is going to have a different view than a parent where no one in the family has attended college. It doesn't make one parent right, wrong, better or worse. It's just going to be a different view.
N njbb1,000+ posts
I'm some what offended when people believe a formal education is necessary for success.
Is a farmer and better farmer because he has a degree?

I say life is short so follow your dream, your passion, work hard and you will have few regrets.

PS I went to college, my husband is a tradesman,my brother is a lawyer and my father was a farmer.. guess who made the most money Smile
Last edited by njbb
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
quote:
NJBB - No, a farmer is not a better farmer because he has a degree. He just has more options and alternatives in case that doesn't work out



Good point.And the real issue here is we are talking about baseball past highschool, so if they aren't drafted out of HS they have to play in college.And to play they have to stay elgible.So while there they should work towards their degree.Whatever that is, wherever that is depending on the family and player.
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
i have a much different view of the situation. i completed the 9th grade, i worked construction from then on.thats what you did with no formal education.
i have a concrete foundation co. i have carried more than i care to admitt on my back ,because i had a strong back. but i wouldn't do anything different, maybe because i don't know any better. Wink there is no substitute for an education.

all though for some school just isn't the thing, i can understand that. but in my opinion you don't go to school to become a pro player. it just cost to much, even with scholy money. even then its up to a chosen few that decide that , if you even get chosen to try. if he wanted to be a plumber,muscician, dr, you need to go to school (or should),not to be a baseball player.

you should pretty much have an idea by now if he has a shot. if he feels that strongly about baseball, see if he's drafted out of high school. if not tryout for any indy team. if he's good enough they'll sign him from there.

sounds as though he is thinking it through some. but why waste time and money in college?

i told my kids they could be whatever they wanted in life, i lied. Big Grin
Last edited by 20dad
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
I have thoroughly enjoyed every post in this thread!

20dad - have always loved your posts. You bring a unique perspective here. No shame in having a strong back and using it accordingly. Hard work is what this country is about. My son is a blue-collar player and our family is very proud of that. Going out and outworking the next guy will always work in this great country of ours.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by fanofgame:
quote:
NJBB - No, a farmer is not a better farmer because he has a degree. He just has more options and alternatives in case that doesn't work out



Good point.And the real issue here is we are talking about baseball past highschool, so if they aren't drafted out of HS they have to play in college.And to play they have to stay elgible.So while there they should work towards their degree.Whatever that is, wherever that is depending on the family and player.


I don't think that this discussion is about college vs. pro but about college options. Should one pass up the better, harder academic option or play it safer with an easier acadeimc load for the pursuit of the game. That's what I am getting anyway. FWIW, son had some very good options to consider at very high academic programs, with so so baseball programs, he chose where he would have better baseball opportunities, and work towards a degree at the same time. Players do it all of the time.

Swampboy, there is nothing wrong in your son's decision, congratulations to him for doing what HE felt was in his best interest, which is to work hark for teh next level after college, and I agree for many there really is no right or wrong answer. I get the feeling that you may not be too comfortable with his decision, just a feeling I get from what you are trying to get across. We, as parents have a tendency to over think and over analyze, our kids are smart, they end up figuring it out and yes, working dilligently towards one dream reaching goals along the way, prepares you for what lies ahead in your life, baseball or no baseball.

The NFL provides counseling for players after they leave the game, this includes help in finishing their academic degree, along with career counseling. They make huge efforts to see that the players finish what they beganin college, no matter how much money they made or didn't in the game.

There is no such animal that exists in MLB. That's why these discussions are good, statistically it is against everyone (even the most talented) that pursues playing at the highest level that they will not get there, so realistic options and prior discussions are important.
JMO
Last edited by TPM
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
Swampboy:

Tell your son to get drafted and sign. Problem solved. College is not for everyone. If, however, he does not get drafted, then he has some tougher choices. He can go to college; he can become a public safety office (fire or police); he can go to technical school. It is not that big of a dilemma.

If, however, he is counting on baseball for his living for a lifetime, he might find himself in a very tough situation at age 30 or 40. I know guys who played in the Big Leagues for 10 years and made a lot of money who now struggle to survive, mainly because they have no other marketable skills. It is even worse for the many of the guys who played 10 years in the minor leagues without ever making the Majors and the money that comes with it.
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
quote:
I don't think that this discussion is about college vs. pro but about college options


I get what the post is about,The original poster said his son chose a less academic school, and is taking a lighter load, and taking longer than 4 years to get a GOOD degree not a weak degree, due to the fact that he wants to focus on his dream of playing at the next level.I did not say there is anything wrong with that.

I am stating after several posters, that unless a player is drafted, academics do come into play.And I really dont care where you go, it is going to be hard.

So if academics arent the most important to a player, and his dream is to play in the BIGs then if he gets drafted out of HS go play baseball.

Then when and where he goes wont matter.
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
My husband has been a Blue collar worker our entire marriage and has provided us with a great life.Now he is 60, At and T decided they want him to retire early, or maybe not have a job, he hurt his back at work and can hardly walk.He is now too slow to do the work they want him to accomplish in 8 hours.They forced him into an early retirement.

No options, no education.Not a lot of jobs out there to support family and help finish sons education.So something to fall back on is huge.His parents never encouraged college.My husband wants our son to finish his degree.
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
Just for the sake of a discussion I put this question out there.

If a young man goes to Dartmouth, Stanford, UCLA, Pepperdine, USC, those top academic schools(there are many mnay others, so not trying to exclude any good schools, and mainly chose D1 as that is where a lot of families want to shoot for first.

Anyway trying to clarify so NO one is offended.

And then you have the kids who go to state schools and get their degrees.

Do you on this board thinks it means anything as to where you go as far as the persons future and connections , job market etc?

I am just curious as to peoples thought process on this.

With that being asked, again a college education anywhere is a Great accomplishment.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
Yes...Academics ALWAYS come first with us. However, I agree that there's certainly different circumstances in each family. College is definitely NOT for everyone. There are a number of jobs/careers that do not require a college degree and still offer you a chance to succeed. I personally had a great time in college. Unfortunately for me, I had such a good time (away from the books!) that I neglected my studies and spent half my sophomore year academically ineligible watching my buddies play from the bleachers. I had Pell/Cal Grants, but I was still struggling to pay my portion of the montly bills. My parents who have been divorced since I was five, didn't have the resources to help, nor did they understand what I was going through. They had been brought up in Blue Collar households and college was never a high priority, therefore I didn't have them to fall back on. After my sophomore year, I lost one of my Grants. It became apparent that I'd have to find a job to stay in school and still play ball. As the summer approached, I took on a job at a major company an hour away from campus. I was making pretty good money for a twenty year old, and made the mistake of purchasing a new truck. When the end of August rolled around I received a phone call from my college coach asking why I hadn't registered for the fall semester? I was embarrassed, I informed him of my financial situation and loss of my Grant. He was understanding, and even offered me an opportunity to stay with his family until I was able to reinstate the Grant. I appreciated the offer and I thought long and hard about my decision before ultimately deciding to remain working at my job beyond the summer. It's been more than 23 years, and I still represent the same company, although in a much different capacity. I've been Very Lucky, but I often wonder if I should have taken my coaches offer and what could have been? By the way, that coach is still coaching at the same school.

I feel it's my job as a parent to help direct my kids in the right direction. With that said, I will support my kids with whatever decision they make as it pertains to college. Will I have a strong opinion? You bet I will! We all want what's best for our children. I have explained the above paragraph/story to my son in the past, and I'm sure I'll remind him if he deviates from his goals in the future. Everyone has different opinions, and the road is not the same for all of us. Academics are important to me because I never completed what I started. The only thing I want to stress to young people that read this site, is YES, you can pursue other dreams...professional baseball, acting, modeling, traveling the world, etc...BUT it's much more difficult to go back to school the longer you're away. It can be done, my sister and her husband went back to school at age 38, graduated, completed their teaching credential last year at age 40/41, and now they're both teaching in Wyoming...I'll be honest though, they were lucky to have his military pension to help get them through and it was still very hard raising two kids!

CD made a good point earlier. If academics are so important, what are we doing on this site constantly? I can't answer for everybody else, but I'm just learning. I'm learning that this site is similar to our society, as TRhit said in a previous post, a sort of Melting Pot. There are several different opinions, some are good, some are bad, and some make you say hmmmm? As for college information, I visit the collegeboard.com site often for facts and information on schools, but it's just not as entertaining as the HSBaseballweb. Smile In the long run, I don't necessarily disagree with Swampboy, I just have a different opinion. If we all agreed with everything, this site would be boring and we wouldn't have nearly as many members and visitors logged on daily, but as I stated earlier... it's JMO. Wink
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by fanofgame:
Just for the sake of a discussion I put this question out there.

If a young man goes to Dartmouth, Stanford, UCLA, Pepperdine, USC, those top academic schools(there are many mnay others, so not trying to exclude any good schools, and mainly chose D1 as that is where a lot of families want to shoot for first.

Anyway trying to clarify so NO one is offended.

And then you have the kids who go to state schools and get their degrees.

Do you on this board thinks it means anything as to where you go as far as the persons future and connections , job market etc?

I am just curious as to peoples thought process on this.

With that being asked, again a college education anywhere is a Great accomplishment.

The better the school, the more doors that will be open initially and perhaps in the future imho. Scott Boras is one of the wealthiest men in America and I believe he went to Pacific. I don't think anyone has ever posted a question about them here at the hsbbweb. Scott said after he got his law degree and started interviewing at the big firms in Chicago and New York that all anyone ever wanted to talk about was the fact he played baseball in college and the pros. Go figure...
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.
Open Question...

Is it better to...

A. Play baseball at a highly visible baseball but much less academic school and get a 3.9 GPA degree.

Or..

B. Play baseball at a much less visible but much more highly regarded academic school...and get a 3.0 GPA.

Which goes farther...High GPA or academic reputation?

44

BTW...excellent observation FOG...trade school or education?
.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by bsbl247:
Yes...Academics ALWAYS come first with us. However, I agree that there's certainly different circumstances in each family. College is definitely NOT for everyone. There are a number of jobs/careers that do not require a college degree and still offer you a chance to succeed. I personally had a great time in college. Unfortunately for me, I had such a good time (away from the books!) that I neglected my studies and spent half my sophomore year academically ineligible watching my buddies play from the bleachers. I had Pell/Cal Grants, but I was still struggling to pay my portion of the montly bills. My parents who have been divorced since I was five, didn't have the resources to help, nor did they understand what I was going through. They had been brought up in Blue Collar households and college was never a high priority, therefore I didn't have them to fall back on. After my sophomore year, I lost one of my Grants. It became apparent that I'd have to find a job to stay in school and still play ball. As the summer approached, I took on a job at a major company an hour away from campus. I was making pretty good money for a twenty year old, and made the mistake of purchasing a new truck. When the end of August rolled around I received a phone call from my college coach asking why I hadn't registered for the fall semester? I was embarrassed, I informed him of my financial situation and loss of my Grant. He was understanding, and even offered me an opportunity to stay with his family until I was able to reinstate the Grant. I appreciated the offer and I thought long and hard about my decision before ultimately deciding to remain working at my job beyond the summer. It's been more than 23 years, and I still represent the same company, although in a much different capacity. I've been Very Lucky, but I often wonder if I should have taken my coaches offer and what could have been? By the way, that coach is still coaching at the same school.

I feel it's my job as a parent to help direct my kids in the right direction. With that said, I will support my kids with whatever decision they make as it pertains to college. Will I have a strong opinion? You bet I will! We all want what's best for our children. I have explained the above paragraph/story to my son in the past, and I'm sure I'll remind him if he deviates from his goals in the future. Everyone has different opinions, and the road is not the same for all of us. Academics are important to me because I never completed what I started. The only thing I want to stress to young people that read this site, is YES, you can pursue other dreams...professional baseball, acting, modeling, traveling the world, etc...BUT it's much more difficult to go back to school the longer you're away. It can be done, my sister and her husband went back to school at age 38, graduated, completed their teaching credential last year at age 40/41, and now they're both teaching in Wyoming...I'll be honest though, they were lucky to have his military pension to help get them through and it was still very hard raising two kids!

CD made a good point earlier. If academics are so important, what are we doing on this site constantly? I can't answer for everybody else, but I'm just learning. I'm learning that this site is similar to our society, as TRhit said in a previous post, a sort of Melting Pot. There are several different opinions, some are good, some are bad, and some make you say hmmmm? As for college information, I visit the collegeboard.com site often for facts and information on schools, but it's just not as entertaining as the HSBaseballweb. Smile In the long run, I don't necessarily disagree with Swampboy, I just have a different opinion. If we all agreed with everything, this site would be boring and we wouldn't have nearly as many members and visitors logged on daily, but as I stated earlier... it's JMO. Wink

Absolutely loved that post - thanks for posting! Wonderful thread. Nobody agrees 100% but nobody is incorrect in what they are saying. I think everyone here has indeed figured it out for themselves. More posts please - very enjoyable reading.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by observer44:
.
Open Question...

Is it better to...

A. Play baseball at a highly visible baseball but much less academic school and get a 3.9 GPA degree.

Or..

B. Play baseball at a much less visible but much more highly regarded academic school...and get a 3.0 GPA.

Which goes farther...High GPA or academic reputation?

44

BTW...excellent observation FOG...trade school or education?
.

Great question. It depends Big Grin For the baseball player, A is probably the better option imho but there are obviously schools that satisfy both A and B and players capable of executing at a high level in both arenas.
PD PA Dino500+ posts
ClevelandDad:

quote:
What if your son wanted to be a musician? Would you discourage that? The odds are slim and none that he becomes the next Harry Connick Jr. and a multi-millionaire. Suppose that is his ultimate dream. Suppose he falls short of that and winds up as a music teacher who occasionally plays weekend gigs in a wedding band. Suppose that does not lead to a wealthy life-style but one that is completely able to pay for all those real-world things you mention above. Suppose that completely makes him happy. Would you discourage that or should he go into something practical like accounting, engineering, or management - even though his passions drove him otherwise?


I don't make the distinction that the arts are any less practical than the sciences when it comes to making a living. While wealth will make a person more comfortable, it's not a necessity for happiness. There are infinitely more musicians and artists making a living than baseball players. If a dream is tied to wealth, I'd want to certify it a real dream before I continued on. My answer is simply, what makes one happy must be tempered by one's responsibilities and duties. Many times both can exist, but sometimes we have to chose to cope, face the crisis and look for other opportunities for happiness. I guess these days, I'm looking for a little less "me" and a little more "we" in our future leadership.

Swampboy,

quote:
I'm really asking if a young man is always better prepared for life by obtaining a degree that makes him initially acceptable to grad schools or hiring managers and whether he might actually learn more from the process to totally committing himself to a goal he probably won't attain. Even in the failure he's likely to encounter, might he not learn more about himself, what he's capable of doing, and what it takes to pursue grand goals than if he just built a resume? Isn't this the difference between making a living and choosing how to live? Between setting your own course and letting others do it for you? Frankly, in the economy our kids might see over the next generation, learning how to operate without a safety net might be the best preparation a young man could have, anyway. (Or is this just my mid-life crisis that I'm projecting on to him?)


I dectect some serious introspection in your words.......All of us have committed ourselves to goals we didn't attain. No matter what your suggestions are to him, he will probably chose to do it his way. Isn't that how it should be anyway?
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
i'm sorry for missing the big picture here. i thought the young mans dream was pro baseball.

either way, my point is you don't get to be a pro player because you WANT to. only if they want you. even with hard work there is no promise there. but you can choose to be a college graduate.

it is a choice the young man should make, unless it's the wrong one. Big Grin
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.
While I do believe that in the end it is a package question...All other things being equal...

...herein lies the central question..not the value of the baseball or the baseball dream per se...if they are really talnted they will likley get a shot...

...but your personal insight into the relative value ranking of...academic reputation, grades, degree, or education for your son's future.

While this is not an either or question exclusively...Some see grades as a measure of value, a way to keep score, and get ahead. Others see a degree in an immediately employable arena as the real goal. Others see prestige and contacts as the best way to insure a future. Some see education in a different ore classical way, that an ability to think and express and discern is the real goal.

The problem is that we/our sons will not know which move was right for them for 25 years. Stick around.

Cool 44
.
Last edited by observer44
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
I'm jumping in here no matter who doesn't like it.
My son just signed his 1st contract after graduating from a small D1 in SC.
He had several offers in the US but he signed with an Interntional company with locations all over the world. He starts on Monday.
Not one of the companies cared about the school . They did care about his marks and everyone asked about his adventures in BB. That includes the 3 top Fortune 500 companies that offered him a job. They cared about how he did in college. In every job he had tough competition.
I hope you take my opinion in the manner it is intended. Enjoy the college experience above all other things.
I forgot he negotiated his starting pay and they upped their offer.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
Do you on this board thinks it means anything as to where you go as far as the persons future and connections , job market etc?
Connections can matter and help a lot. The largest membership association in the world is the Penn State Alumni Association. I know people who got jobs that started by a conversation in a social setting acknowledging they both went to PSU.

If two people interview for a job and the competition is close, who do you think gets the job? The candidate who went to the same college as the future potential boss or the candidate who didn't.

My best connection was the reputation of the first company I worked for. I won out over fierce competition. My bosses son attended the same college I did. I doubt it was 100% coincidence.

On the other hand it is possible to get a degree from Whatsamattah U and kick down doors.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
Regardless of college, employers who employ people in competitive situations like sales prefer former athletes and military people. It's two kinds of people who thrive on winning, understand the protocols of leadership and don't understand the meaning of the word "lose."
Last edited by RJM
B Brickhouse100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by observer44:

The problem is that we/our sons will not know which move was right for them for 25 years. Stick around.

Cool 44
.


I graduated on The Director's List for Business from a private school twenty five years ago. I worked my way up to managing a team of thirty high paid technical analysts at a large corporation. The organization was restructured and I have been looking for work for over a year and a half now. As we all know, there are no guarantees. Life constantly provides new opportunities to prove yourself over and over again.
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
quote:
Scott said after he got his law degree and started interviewing at the big firms in Chicago and New York that all anyone ever wanted to talk about was the fact he played baseball in college and the pros. Go figure...


I have heard that from him and others, how much playing college baseball can effect your resume as well.That many employers like college athletes as they have great timemanagement skills and the work ethic etc.

This has been a great thread.And the best thing about this thread is nobody got inflamed.Just great contributions, different points of views.Some great posts by all. Well done HSBBWebbers.
J justakid100+ posts
What's got me thinking here is that maybe Swampboy (and lots of others) get challenged by the shift in direction...or the shift in plan...that is happening to his son because of his baseball success. It might be fair to say that 4 years ago, in 8th grade, Swampboy would have NEVER imagined that his son would have chosen a light load at a "good" but not "great" school so that he could focus on baseball and even have a glimmer of a chance of making it to the big time.

So, the question might be that if we allow or encourage our kids to change direction from the "original plan" are we compromising our objectives? Assuming our number one objective as parents has always been to educate our kids?
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
Regardless of college, employers who employ people in competitive situations like sales prefer former athletes and military people. It's two kinds of people who thrive on winning, understand the protocols of leadership and don't understand the meaning of the word "lose."


RJM,

I can't argue with that statement. As I said earlier, I left school early and unfortunately never completed my degree. To make a long story short, after starting at the bottom of the totem pole at a major insurance company, I was given the opportunity to open my own agency after four years. A degree was/is required, however, the local District Manager fought to have that rule waived for me. His argument to our Home Office sales staff was that my experience in the regional office would be valuable in the agency force. Apparently, he just liked my jumpshot and the way I competed in a local mens basketball league. The fact that I played baseball for a few years in college was icing on the cake. I still remember my initial interview with him twenty years ago, the Sales/District Manager told me that he preferred former athletes. He went on to say something very similar to RJM's above quote.

I've been with the same company the past twenty-three plus years as an employee and agency owner, and that's pretty uncommon for my generation. I tell my kids frequently that my situation is not the norm these days, and there's been plenty of times that I wish that I stuck it out and finished school. I tell them Yes, it's possible to succeed without a degree in our country. But I remind them often that if my company decided to change to 1-800-insurance and dismiss the agency force, I'd be in big trouble...and being a former athlete won't help one bit, but a degree in my back pocket more than likely would! I apologize if I went a little off topic, but it's still in line with "Should academics ALWAYS come first?"...and my answer will always be Yes, but with a Bryce Harper bonus disclaimer! Big Grin
Last edited by bsbl247
M mikamom100+ posts
Whoa!!! I have little to say about whether or not a student should go to this school or that, but when njbb and others agreed that a farmer is no better off with or without a degree, you hit a nerve!!

I suggest you take a trip to your local dairy, beef, row crop (the vegetables you eat each day), fruit, nut, wheat, corn or other farm. Chances are you will find a person with a bachelors at the least, and perhaps a masters or a Phd in some form of agriculture. Or perhaps it is a business degree.
Ask them where they went to school - Cornell, Purdue, Ohio State, U of MN, U of WI, UC, U of Washington, Iowa, Iowa State, Illinois, Texas, K-State just to name a few.

He or she aslo has on staff or contracts with a nutritionist (animals eat WAY better than most people, and their ration is adjusted to suit their body type and weight), a veterinarian, a pest control advisor, etc etc (and those are the jsut the start of the folks who have the masters and Phd's to even have the start of enough knowledge to do this job.

Then there are people like me, who supply farmers with the "stuff" they need to produce the highest quality, safest food suppply in the world. We have at least bachelors if not masters, Phds and other post - grad work.

I know this is totally off topic, but any chance I get to inform about how complex ag is, how science has impacted it, and how students of it are learning more and more about care for the environment, care for animals, and people and business management, I do it.

Remember, support the American farmer, don't scoff at him or her, they feed you, your family, your town, and your country. Lose the ability to feed ourselves (without buying our food from China) and we lose the last stronghold we have on security. And who knows how that food is grown or what's put on it??

The American farmer that feeds your family is no longer Mr. Greenjeans, more like Dr. Carhart or Wrangler.


Now then, carry on.
WklinkWklink500+ posts
Like others have said, I don't believe that that grades and playing are mutually exclusive.

Academics has been emphasized in my household since day one. It doesn't matter how talented a player may be. All it takes is one Stephen Strassborg incident in AA ball and your kid is done. I've known more than a few ballplayers that have had this happen. I had one friend, a lefty playing AA ball, rip his shoulder up moving furnature of all things. Two surguries later and one comback try and he was out of baseball. I have another friend that couldn't make it past AA because of back issues. He is playing independent league ball now but has stated that he is pretty close to hanging up the cleats for good, at least professionally.

There is too much chance involved in baseball to just use it as your primary focus. A smart, well rounded athelete has a much better chance of not only adapting to the changing aspects of the game but also to the outside if and when his playing days are done. Lets face facts, even the best ballplayers rarely play the game past the age of 35. Very few go beyond 40. That means that even if a young man defies the odds and makes it all the way to the majors he probably will have 10-15 years tops before he is forced to do something else.

No, not all ballpayers need to go to a top tiered Ivy League university but I do believe that all ballplayers need to develop an interest that will serve them well if baseball doesn't pan out for them.

I like to remember the old saying, 'Remember that you are closer to your last day playing than you are to your first day.' Most kids don't know when that last day is coming so they need to be prepared for that eventual day.
fillsfanfillsfan1,000+ posts
Better late than never.

Just like every kid is not a top notch D1 player, not every student is Ivy league student. And, just like baseball, each kid should attend the academic school that fits his level of intelligence and/or desire and make the best of it.

The first step is to get the degree. That will help you get the job. If baseball and alumni help getting the job, great choice of school. When you get the job, if you, the State U. grad out performs the Ivy grad, I would think the State U. grad gets the promotion. Just like baseball.

My bottom line is attend the school where the combination of baseball and academics don't drive you crazy and do the best you can at both.
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.
Would agree...absolutely get a degree...

but baseball is simply a great/the best second major...

...it is most often seen as exclusive, respected, ultra competitive, full of contacts, provider of references, prover of charcater and work ethic...

And frankly if you go to State U and excel at both you can impresively fill up a resume with academic/athletic accolades which are invaluable in getting inteviews.

Cool 44
.
W Will1,000+ posts
A few thoughts.

do academics come first? lets look at things. Talent level. Now if you are a high draft choice out of high school being offered a big bonus with also a scholarship then you can debate. I know of guys who did it both ways. Out of high school did not go to school bounced around the minors released and starting from scratch. out of high school went to college got a degree drafted bounced around minors released had something to fall back on. For every guy in the major leagues there are hundreds who did not make it. With that said it is wise to know the odds going in and be smart about it.
08Dad08Dad1,000+ posts
When this discussion comes up, I always think of a guy that have have worked with for the last 6 years.

He played college baseball back in the 1980s - but his approach is one that I think would work today - he simply has two degrees - one in general studies (his "baseball degree") and the other in Electrical Engineering from a top 10 engineering school.

What he did was take all of the pre reqs for his engineering degree over his first three years of college - and then a couple of engineering classes his senior year. After finishing his senior year and deciding not to go pro, he transferred to the engineering school and finished his engineering degree in 1.5 years. He then transferred units back to his baseball school and got his BA in General Studies. When you look at his resume, it shows two degrees awarded in the same month at universities 1000 miles apart.

Hasn't hurt him at all professionally - he is making good money, has had a series of interesting jobs with good employers, and continues to advance in our company.

The bottom line in telling this story is that baseball, in his case, did come first - but that he had a plan from the beginning to work towards a EE degree - and he stuck to that plan. Yes it took 5.5 years to graduate - but in the process he got to play the game he loved for four more years - making some all league teams and going to the CWS. So it can be done.

08
DaddyBoDaddyBo100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
Regardless of college, employers who employ people in competitive situations like sales prefer former athletes and military people. It's two kinds of people who thrive on winning, understand the protocols of leadership and don't understand the meaning of the word "lose."

I'm kinda' liking this post. Big Grin
DE Double Eagle100+ posts
Great Discussion. I have more questions than answers in this area.

I agree with Will that the first time the question might arise is in High School. If drafted and signed to a University, which option to choose? Once the decision to attend college (either because not drafted or because fit of mlb team was not right) for me the equation changes. There are places for a person to play ball, hone baseball skills while not attending college.

I am struck by the thought that by preaching "academics first" we might be undercutting the dreams of playing professionally. I don't think there is a son/player who is referred to on this board who doesn't still harbor the dream of being paid for playing baseball. For some, the chances are almost non-existent, some slim, some they've got a shot,some they are a sure thing. Where any particular player falls is somewhat subjective. My son is playing at college. For him "academics first" is the right way to go.

When we speak we talk about classes and baseball. In what order probably depends upon the time of year. I always say my kids get a look on their faces when they are engaged in an activity about which they are truly passionate. The baseball field is where I see that look most often with my son. I never want to discourage him from pursuing a career working in an arena where he can feel that passion on a regular basis.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Just some thoughts...

Both Baseball and Academics are important. No one is likely to change what is the driving force in an individual.

I've never believed in odds when it comes to baseball. If everyone were to make their decision based on the odds, we might not have enough Major League Players to field a team. Someone has to buck the odds. I always look at the odds as something that every individual has to beat.

Also, the earlier the round a player is drafted and the more money they have invested in that player... The odds get much better.

Anyone should do better academically if they didn't play any sport in college. So if academics are that important, it would be wise to stay away from athletics. However, there's something very special about a player that can excell as a student and as an athlete. Even being a college athlete who stays eligible is quite an accomplishment.

Just being a good student doesn't mean enough to me. Can he get along with others? Can he work on a team? Will he be loyal? Will he be a positive addition? Will he get dirty? Does he have the right attitude? The degree doesn't give us the answers to many of those type questions, but perhaps the athletic involvement (pro or college) does.
08Dad08Dad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Swampboy:
The situation 08Dad describes sounds like the kind of outcome my son might be happy with, except he'd settle for one degree. The school he'll attend has a generous tuition policy for athletes after their eligibility is used up, and he has mentioned the possibility of switching to a harder major when he's done playing baseball.


Just to be clear - the second degree was basically an accident - he looked at the graduation requirements and figured the cost of sending a transcript and filling out the paperwork was trivial...
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
I think it's a false choice.

At any level of academics, you can find any level of baseball.

Find the school that fits you in both departments and go after it.

Basically in the OP, the message is that the player does not put a high value on a degree right now, much less a degree from an elite institution. If that is so, he is not terribly likely to succeed in that environment anyway. If he were on my team, I would listen to that message and work with the boy to line up a school where he could get the value of some progress on a degree without flunking out. That way, maybe baseball would prove to be the motivator to get him more education than he otherwise might've gotten done while young.

We forget, a whole lot of kids start college straight out of HS only because they've always been told it's what they were supposed to do. The fall in love with beer or what not and end up out of school.

So here's a kid who, because of baseball, is going to stay after it for 3 years. If the pro thing doesn't work out on that schedule, he might well end up staying for 4 years, or even 5 if he has to redshirt. He might finish. At worst, he is in a position where he could at least be within reach of finishing his bachelor's degree later in life, when baseball is done and he discovers employers want to see that degree on the resume.

To me it would be a mistake to push that kid to a tougher school where he might struggle both on and off the field, have to transfer, find himself sitting out a year, and maybe fall off track in both departments.

We say "academics first" because the professional baseball roadside is littered with the carcases of former phenoms. I say, you can pursue the dream and not compromise your education. But at the same time, the education needs to fit the particular student, not someone else. You can compromise the education by overshooting the target, just as you can in undershooting it.
D dswann100+ posts
Locally, kids who were drafted and IMO signing was the right choice. Primarily, because they were not especially good students in HS. Others who signed were tremendous students in HS and again it was the right choice. It was the right choice because they will probabaly beat the MLB odds and will use MLB money to complete their education.

In the boys case, a number of teams had expressed interest during the summer and fall. As parents.we did not want to be the "bad guy" and force our will on what direction he should choose. Fortunately a late growth spurt(2")the winter of his senior year pretty well set the tone for the 2010 draft.

As parents, we're grateful that we were not put into a position of having to weigh the pros and cons between school and the milb. Academics, simply put are academic. You can make what you want of the opportunity. Take challenging courses that will prepare you for a career, or courses that will assure you can maintain elegibility. In the boys case, school has been the perfect choice. He loves the experience and to date is thriving. Moreover. I'am positive, he would have been one of 94% who would not have completed their degree, after 5 or 6 years within the milb system.
N njbb1,000+ posts
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikamom:
Whoa!!! I have little to say about whether or not a student should go to this school or that, but when njbb and others agreed that a farmer is no better off with or without a degree, you hit a nerve!!

I suggest you take a trip to your local dairy, beef, row crop (the vegetables you eat each day), fruit, nut, wheat, corn or other farm. Chances are you will find a person with a bachelors at the least, and perhaps a masters or a Phd in some form of agriculture. Or perhaps it is a business degree.
Ask them where they went to school - Cornell, Purdue, Ohio State, U of MN, U of WI, UC, U of Washington, Iowa, Iowa State, Illinois, Texas, K-State just to name a few.

He or she aslo has on staff or contracts with a nutritionist (animals eat WAY better than most people, and their ration is adjusted to suit their body type and weight), a veterinarian, a pest control advisor, etc etc (and those are the jsut the start of the folks who have the masters and Phd's to even have the start of enough knowledge to do this job.

Then there are people like me, who supply farmers with the "stuff" they need to produce the highest quality, safest food suppply in the world. We have at least bachelors if not masters, Phds and other post - grad work.

I know this is totally off topic, but any chance I get to inform about how complex ag is, how science has impacted it, and how students of it are learning more and more about care for the environment, care for animals, and people and business management, I do it.

Remember, support the American farmer, don't scoff at him or her, they feed you, your family, your town, and your country. Lose the ability to feed ourselves (without buying our food from China) and we lose the last stronghold we have on security. And who knows how that food is grown or what's put on it??

The American farmer that feeds your family is no longer Mr. Greenjeans, more like Dr. Carhart or Wrangler.


Now then, carry on.[/Q

First of all my father and grand father were farmers and I continue to farm the land that has been in the family for 100 years, They were self taught men, you can be educated with out a degree.
R ranger68910+ posts
This is an interesting question.

My older brother (long ago) played college ball on scholarship at the CC and D1 level.

His CC coach was honest and told him that he was a AA player at best, from that point on, he more or less concentrated on academics but let baseball pay the bills.

During his Senior year, he needed surgery to remove bone chips from his elbow and was unable to play but he still graduated.

He has been very successful in his field of study ever since.

YMMV
C CaBB1,000+ posts
MY CHOICE for my son was to go to an Ivy League school. He had the stats, grades, and SAT's.

But, it wasn't HIS dream. He chose to put baseball 1st and based on who recruited him made the choice by fit, offer of playing time @ his position, location, coaches and everything else that goes into making that decision. It's worked out great, he's loving college, playing good competition, and most importantly getting a good education.

So just because we as parents have dreams for their lives it is ultimately up to them to succeed wherever they choose to play and attend college.

(And maybe he'll listen to me about a post grad degree and let me pick the school! Ha!)
M mikamom100+ posts
re our side discussion: njbb - Ok I will buy what you are saying in your situation, just like in the situations we are discussing in the main part of this thread - what works for one doesn't for another. But I will stick with my argument that ag is science and grant a lot of art and frankly luck. You may be the farmer that plants and harvests, but who grew the seed and developed the hybrid? Who figured out the best no-till system? Who figures the rations? If you do all that and have top notch production on your farm, production that cannot be bettered, then my hats off to you. I just find it disheartening when people throw the occupation of farming under the bus and make it sound like farmers are a bunch of uneducated folks. My point is that there are plenty of people who are very well educated in farming, and there are too many people who think their food comes from the grocery store, period with no thought to the work and thought that goes into feeding the country and the world. Most of the time, it is the fault of the ag industry itself to educate people about the safe, reliable food growing we do!!! You are in New Jersey, I am in CA, there are definitely regional differences in methodology. So lets not fuss over education, although I think you are going to HAVE to have a degree of some kind to survive in the future even in your area. Let it be known that however it comes, you have to be @#$% smart to be a farmer!
Last edited by mikamom
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
We guide, encourage, manipulate to a certain degree, point in a certain direction and assist - etc etc etc - But there reaches a point where your child has to decide. They have to follow their dreams. They have to follow the path that they choose. We can force them to follow our dreams for them but they will ultimately choose their own path.

What did we do? The exact same thing.

We all want our children to be successful at what they love to do. And we all want our children to be successful in life at whatever it is they end up doing. And we all want our children to be happy. You will raise them and then they will want to fly on their own. They will want to fly in a direction some times you don't think they should fly. But guess what they are going to go off on the path that they choose. And we will be there when they crash, stumble and we will be there when they soar as well. That is life.

You can control many things for a few years. And then you will have to trust you have instilled some things that will assist them on their journey. Because you will not be able to control what they do when they decide its time for them to fly on their own. If you fight that you will find a tough road.

Dreams are what life is all about. Seeing your child chase a dream is a wonderful thing. Knowing that they want something and they are willing to fight for it is a wonderful thing. Sometimes those dreams come true. And sometimes along the way the dreams change into other dreams and quests in life. As long as your in the game your in the game. As long as you are still in the fight you still got a shot. And sometimes that's all that really matters. And when they do indeed hang up the spikes and move on to other dreams they can attack those dreams with the same determination and focus they attacked this game with.

Each kid is different and every situation is different. But as long as your kid has dreams that's a very good thing indeed. JMHO
M mikamom100+ posts
Absolutely. Perfect, Coach May.
"Dreams are what life is all about. Seeing your child chase a dream is a wonderful thing. Knowing that they want something and they are willing to fight for it is a wonderful thing. Sometimes those dreams come true. And sometimes along the way the dreams change into other dreams and quests in life. As long as your in the game your in the game. As long as you are still in the fight you still got a shot. And sometimes that's all that really matters. And when they do indeed hang up the spikes and move on to other dreams they can attack those dreams with the same determination and focus they attacked this game with. "
That's all there is!
Baseballdad1228Baseballdad1228500+ posts
I enjoyed reading this discussion. Lots of great insight and perspectives.

Academics belong to the student. The grade reflects the work. There is nothing subjective about it.

Athletics are subjective. In baseball, coaches and/or scouts can look at a player and not like him. Forget stats, championships, leadership qualities...it's enough to not be liked for whatever reason that potentially could end a career.

For this simple reason, academics must supercede sports when making decisions that pertain to both, IMHO.
C Catcherz_Dad100+ posts
Great topic and fantastic responses.

I'm in a role where very often I recruit and hire young adults straight out of college. I look at GPA, course of study, and degree. However, I also pay a great deal of attention to athletic or club involvement. Experience tells me that a 4-year athlete who has maintained a respectable GPA, makes for a quality individual in the business world. This young adult knows adversity, discipline, and dedication that is not easily found in a graduate who was not a student athlete. These individuals are generally goal oriented and are able to manage themselves with little to no involvement from others. I'm not saying that these qualities only exist in student athletes, but as a whole, they do tend to be more prevalent.

I have a son that will soon be taking that same plunge and I can only hope that he chases his dream. Granted, I hope that he does so with respect to his education. I would be lying if I said that I'm not living through him somewhat vicariously, but so long as I keep steering him in the right direction and I'm there to dust him off when he lands face first, he'll be just fine.

Best of luck to Swampboy. Keep us updated.
gonyardgonyard10+ posts
Recently my son met an ex milb player who is now a Doctor. Son asked when did you start studying for med school. The doctor replied the day my college asked me to change my major to liberal arts to remain eligible.

He proceeded to share his words of wisdom with my son that worked for him. He pursued BOTH dreams knowing that if he made it in baseball he still would have another dream to live after baseball.

I like the idea of pursuing dreams with all you have and then as things develop one modifies the plan.

In todays world one needs plan A, B, and C. For me I have always second guessed my decision to chase the $$$ rather than my dream and passion. Looking back although I am highly successful I feel that given the choice again I would have gone for the dream and then see what happened. There is a lot we learn about ourselves when we want something real bad.

In other words I will take those odds as long as I have a plan B.

I also want to add that sports provides situations, pressures, and competition that one can not get from the classroom. This to me is the million dollar value of college and sports that helps those young players excel in the real world and makes them that much more in demand once they have their degree.
B bothsportsdad100+ posts
its already started with us... son is a soph. He has gotten some interest from a Juco... which is nice.. very nice. It has a great baseball program.

When the time comes and after we talk to several people we will make the decision in large part on whether he has the potential to be drafted. If he does not he will probably go on to an engineering school which has a weak D2 baseball program. I have read many times on here that it might not be possible to play high level baseball and major in engineering.. so for son we will be making pretty much an either/or decision when he goes off to college as a freshman.
fenwaysouthfenwaysouth10,000+ posts
bothsportsdad,

I understand your situation all too well. In our region of the country it is very difficult to find a very good D1/D2/D3 baseball program that also has a very good, broad & deep engineering program that is not in the SEC or ACC. My son had talked to many people about this topic over the last two years. We ended up looking at a different region of the country to find our fit.

It is possible to play on a good baseball program and study engineering, however there will be very little social life. It is a difficult combination, but there are programs out there. Keep looking and keep talking to folks. The perfect fit is out there, you just have to keep looking.
Last edited by fenwaysouth
B Bear1,000+ posts
There are a variety of Engineering Schools in VA, some are not in the ACC/SEC nor have baseball programs.

Ashford University

DeVry University

Strayer University

Herzing University

ITT Technical Institute

Virginia Commonwealth University

James Madison University

Have you thought about Jr College for two years taking the general admin courses and playing ball
and then making another decision about engineering and baseball?
MTHMTH10,000+ posts
It's not easy, but it IS possible to play high level D1/CWS baseball and major in engineering. Whether it's possible to do that AND graduate on time remains to be seen. :-)

[QUOTE].... I have read many times on here that it might not be possible to play high level baseball and major in engineering.. QUOTE]
B bothsportsdad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by MTH:
It's not easy, but it IS possible to play high level D1/CWS baseball and major in engineering. Whether it's possible to do that AND graduate on time remains to be seen. :-)

[QUOTE].... I have read many times on here that it might not be possible to play high level baseball and major in engineering.. QUOTE]


I thank those that posted after me and we will keep our eyes and ears open. Son has his heart set on giving baseball his best shot. Perhaps I should also clarify.. his interest is in petroleum engineering which somewhat limits his choices.
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by NIC15:
Without your education, you have nothing... Education will last you a lifetime, Baseball wont..


I disagree. Without your education, you do have something. You have the discipline, confidence, toughness, maturity and other traits you developed or discovered by committing yourself to excellence in baseball. You can always go back to school and finish your degree, but the window for "going for it" in baseball closes fast and stays closed.

Baseball may not last, but what it teaches you can last a lifetime and be worth more than what it costs to return to school as an older student.

We can do kids a disservice by creating the expectation that they must graduate "on time" (Whose time?) and telling them to hedge on their dreams. If a high school graduate has committed himself to baseball and developed himself to the extent that "the dream" is not totally implausible AND he is willing to accept the hardships that might ensue if he falls short or gets hurt, who are we to dissuade him from pursuing greatness?

Maybe the schoolmarm types should lighten up, stop overselling institutional learning as the only path to success, and let the boys do something hard that helps them become MEN! School will still be there if they need and want it.
NIC15NIC15100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Swampboy:
quote:
Originally posted by NIC15:
Without your education, you have nothing... Education will last you a lifetime, Baseball wont..


I disagree. Without your education, you do have something. You have the discipline, confidence, toughness, maturity and other traits you developed or discovered by committing yourself to excellence in baseball. You can always go back to school and finish your degree, but the window for "going for it" in baseball closes fast and stays closed.

Baseball may not last, but what it teaches you can last a lifetime and be worth more than what it costs to return to school as an older student.

We can do kids a disservice by creating the expectation that they must graduate "on time" (Whose time?) and telling them to hedge on their dreams. If a high school graduate has committed himself to baseball and developed himself to the extent that "the dream" is not totally implausible AND he is willing to accept the hardships that might ensue if he falls short or gets hurt, who are we to dissuade him from pursuing greatness?

Maybe the schoolmarm types should lighten up, stop overselling institutional learning as the only path to success, and let the boys do something hard that helps them become MEN! School will still be there if they need and want it.



DISCIPLINE, CONFIDENCE, TOUGHNESS, MATURITY and other traits are ALL traits that should be developed or discovered by the Maturing process. Just because someone decides to committ themselves to baseball does not give them these traits.

Yes you can always go back to school but how many people actually do this? After you get older, have kids, enter the working world be it baseball or a garbage man how many people actually have the discipline to do this, or the time to do it.

Who is saying to hedge on your dreams? Why can your dreams not be accomplished while at the same time earning your education?

And you say if a high school graduate has committed himself who are we to tell him not to pursue greatness. Well where is he going to pursue this? Is he going to simply go to open tryouts? Because last time I looked HS Grads who do not get drafted, have no where else to play after grauating except summer leagues, or town teams. So where can they pursue these dreams?

I think we are disservicing a kid by telling him that education is not as important as following your dreams... Thats a DISSERVICE

School Marm types should lighten up and stop overselling institutional learning? Thats a ridiculous comment...

I have coached HS, Collegiate, and Professional Baseball, oh yes I also have 6 Years as a MLB Scout. I have been there, I have seen this scenario a million times. Have you??
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
For myself,I am glad my son went to college first.(not that he was drafted out of HS) but he was getting serious looks after his first year at JC.But now he is a junior at a good college.It is his draft year and if he gets drafted he will go.I understand his reasons to go if it happens.But I am glad he will have three solid years done, and on schedule to graduate in 4 years.I am just so pro education.I just think to at least have your bachelors and then you can build from there if needed.
S SwampboyHSBBWeb Administrator
To answer a few of your objections:

1. "Just because someone decides to committ themselves to baseball does not give them these traits." Well, duh. No, there's no guarantee that baseball will develop character in every case, any more than there's a guarantee that a degree will lead to a job (ask your waiter this weekend). However, if you don't believe at some level that total commitment to baseball or any other honorable undertaking is a good way to develop positive traits, then I have to wonder why you entered coaching.

2. "Yes you can always go back to school but how many people actually do this?" Hundreds of thousands, actually. Thanks for asking. Veterans and other older students are making up increasingly large proportions of the college student population and frequently outperform their 18-22 year old classmates. Yes, it is hard to go back to school as an older student, especially if you've become responsible for a family. However, I have taught older college students in that situation, and I loved working with grown ups who knew why they were in school and what they were working toward.

3. "Who is saying to hedge on your dreams? Why can your dreams not be accomplished while at the same time earning your education?" You are. You don't appear to realize it, but you're telling players to hedge on their dreams when you falsely assert that it's possible to pursue the MLB dream and get a college education. You're the scout. Of the "millions" of cases you've seen, how many got a degree and made it to the top? According to one web site that tried to list them, fewer than 50 players had MLB careers and earned college degrees--ever. Maybe they missed a few, and they didn't count guys who had a cup of coffee and later earned their degrees, but the general rule holds. We all know about Mike Mussina and Craig Counsell graduating from Stanford and Notre Dame precisely because they are such extreme exceptions. For all practical purposes, when you tell anyone else to put academics first, you're really telling him to turn his slim chance of baseball success into no chance.

4. "Well where is he going to pursue this? Is he going to simply go to open tryouts? Because last time I looked HS Grads who do not get drafted, have no where else to play after grauating except summer leagues, or town teams. So where can they pursue these dreams?" Geesh, read the thread and try to pay attention. We're not talking about kids who pass up college. We're talking about a high school senior with good grades who chose his best baseball development opportunity over a more prestigious academic opportunity. He has decided up front that he'll be enough of a student to remain in good standing, but baseball is going to come first and is going to get all his extra effort. Later, after his baseball playing is over, I expect he'll hit the books with the same vigor he's applying in the weight room now. He's willing to be a 25 year old finishing his degree after not making it to AA, but he's not willing to be a 30 year old engineer wondering if he could have been a pro baseball player. In my book, that is a reasonable life choice.

5. "I think we are disservicing a kid by telling him that education is not as important as following your dreams... Thats a DISSERVICE." Hate to break it to you but writing in all caps isn't an acceptable substitute for backing an assertion with actual evidence or reasoning.


6. "School Marm types should lighten up and stop overselling institutional learning? That's a ridiculous comment." Again, you haven't really made an argument, but the fact is hundreds of thousands of kids who aren't prepared or motivated to succeed in higher education go to college every year and run up a lot of debt because people like you say they will be failures if they don't get a college degree right away. Many of them end up not graduating, graduating with unmarketable degrees, or graduating and finding themselves obliged to take jobs they hate in order to service their student debt. I used the phrase "schoolmarm types" to describe people who, because they are good at school, think everyone should follow in their footsteps and can't imagine any other path to success. That's a failure of imagination and an intolerance of freedom.
Last edited by Swampboy
HC Hot Corner Dad10+ posts
Swampboy, I also come from a family that values education and I have taught both undergraduate and graduate level courses. With that said, I admire the decision your son has made and think it reflects unusual wisdom for one so young. He is a rare young person who knows what he wants, understands the odds of his choice, and has committed to a course of action that will allow him to end his quest satisfied regardless of the outcome. Kudos to him!

Incidentally, my son sounds a lot like yours. He is a freshman in college who made his college decision based on his desire to see how far he can go in baseball. It's a fine school, but not as academically rigorous as other places he could have selected. And, like your son, he was a decent student in high school but far more dedicated to working out and practicing than hitting the books. I worried a lot about his priorities over the years, but finally came to admire his passion and dedication to the thing that was most important to him.
NIC15NIC15100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Swampboy:
What's ridiculous is that I find myself arguing against a champion of higher education who is himself unable to spell, use punctuation, or structure a coherent argument.

To answer a few of your objections:

1. "Just because someone decides to committ themselves to baseball does not give them these traits." Well, duh. No, there's no guarantee that baseball will develop character in every case, any more than there's a guarantee that a degree will lead to a job (ask your waiter this weekend). However, if you don't believe at some level that total commitment to baseball or any other honorable undertaking is a good way to develop positive traits, then I have to wonder why you entered coaching.

2. "Yes you can always go back to school but how many people actually do this?" Hundreds of thousands, actually. Thanks for asking. Veterans and other older students are making up increasingly large proportions of the college student population and frequently outperform their 18-22 year old classmates. Yes, it is hard to go back to school as an older student, especially if you've become responsible for a family. However, I have taught older college students in that situation, and I loved working with grown ups who knew why they were in school and what they were working toward.

3. "Who is saying to hedge on your dreams? Why can your dreams not be accomplished while at the same time earning your education?" You are. You don't appear to realize it, but you're telling players to hedge on their dreams when you falsely assert that it's possible to pursue the MLB dream and get a college education. You're the scout. Of the "millions" of cases you've seen, how many got a degree and made it to the top? According to one web site that tried to list them, fewer than 50 players had MLB careers and earned college degrees--ever. Maybe they missed a few, and they didn't count guys who had a cup of coffee and later earned their degrees, but the general rule holds. We all know about Mike Mussina and Craig Counsell graduating from Stanford and Notre Dame precisely because they are such extreme exceptions. For all practical purposes, when you tell anyone else to put academics first, you're really telling him to turn his slim chance of baseball success into no chance.

4. "Well where is he going to pursue this? Is he going to simply go to open tryouts? Because last time I looked HS Grads who do not get drafted, have no where else to play after grauating except summer leagues, or town teams. So where can they pursue these dreams?" Geesh, read the thread and try to pay attention. We're not talking about kids who pass up college. We're talking about a high school senior with good grades who chose his best baseball development opportunity over a more prestigious academic opportunity. He has decided up front that he'll be enough of a student to remain in good standing, but baseball is going to come first and is going to get all his extra effort. Later, after his baseball playing is over, I expect he'll hit the books with the same vigor he's applying in the weight room now. He's willing to be a 25 year old finishing his degree after not making it to AA, but he's not willing to be a 30 year old engineer wondering if he could have been a pro baseball player. In my book, that is a reasonable life choice.

5. "I think we are disservicing a kid by telling him that education is not as important as following your dreams... Thats a DISSERVICE." Hate to break it to you but writing in all caps isn't an acceptable substitute for backing an assertion with actual evidence or reasoning.


6. "School Marm types should lighten up and stop overselling institutional learning? That's a ridiculous comment." Again, you haven't really made an argument, but the fact is hundreds of thousands of kids who aren't prepared or motivated to succeed in higher education go to college every year and run up a lot of debt because people like you say they will be failures if they don't get a college degree right away. Many of them end up not graduating, graduating with unmarketable degrees, or graduating and finding themselves obliged to take jobs they hate in order to service their student debt. I used the phrase "schoolmarm types" to describe people who, because they are good at school, think everyone should follow in their footsteps and can't imagine any other path to success. That's a failure of imagination and an intolerance of freedom.




First off as far as my punctuation, and spelling, I could care less. Thats solved. Second I will ask my waiter this weekend. Whether or not he has a degree, who knows but he still has a job. And to say that telling someone that education comes first will make there already slim chance become no chance to make it is ridiculous. Your telling me that if you put academics first you are setting yourself up for failure on the field?

And why would someone decide to be "Just a good enough student, to be in good academic standing"?? That alone is showing that they are settling for mediocrity. That alone shows lack of work ethic already, and raises a red flag to me as a scout in a big category... Character... Believe me, I used to think this way when I was in High School..

Ans while there may not be many who made it to the top who have a college degree, where are the other ones who were late round picks who chose to sign instead of finishing college? Either riding a bus in the minors drinking Wiskey out of a dixy cup, or working a dead end job that they hate.

Where are the ones who did not make it who do have a degree? They are coaching at the college level, working in the professional level in some aspect, etc.. Point being, they have something to fall back on.

Try getting a collegiate coaching job these days without a degree. Not to easy to come by.

I was far from "Good At School" but when I did get to college I put my priorities in order and made an effort in the classroom to get my degree, and this did not affect my on field drive, determination, or ability. I was still just as good. But now with my education I had an advantage over others, I had something to fall back on..

You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine, so it is what it is.
TB the big mac10+ posts
Here's a deep one for you guys: What if your academics are sports? i.e. Sports management, athletic training, kiniseology, athletic administration, sports marketing, physical education, etc. If you aren't a great student, wouldn't these be majors for you? They'll probably keep you half way interested since sports are obviously involved, and they can lead to great jobs such as: Athletic Director, Athletic Trainer (Medical), Physical Therapist, Sports Trainer (Conditioning, Workout Trainer),PE Teacher, Every pro team in any sport in this country has a marketing department, as well as countless other job oppourtunities in that field, it's a stretch but General Manager is a job that is coveted by everyone playing Fantasy Football.

What's wrong with any of those jobs??? So what's wrong with choosing a major that would interest you? Not exactly an easier major, but one that would interest the student athlete more than other majors.

There is a major for everyone, and it's easier to juggle academics and baseball if you enjoy the academics.
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
My son isnt taking a really hard major.He cant and keep up at USC.I really think a bachelors is a starting point.It means you completed your degree.You can always build on it later.

I think we need to be careful when putting down any degree.Some boys that play baseball in college ,might not even be there without baseball.

A basic degree teaches you writing and communication skills which are essential for any type of job.My son loves baseball, school isnt his favorite but he does alright.

A basic degree teaches you time management, and deadlines, and how to deal with stress and working with professors, and other students.Not every student is going to get an engineering degee(and my honest awe of those that do).

Most kids today will get entry level jobs out of college.I know kids who have aeronautical engineering degrees rt now that can not find work.

I applaud any student athlete who can go to school and maintain grades to graduate.For some that is all they can handle.

Nobody should judge that.And for the kids who go pro after HS tough road, but thats their life.Many of those kids dont like school.Its just an individal decision.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
My son was not a great HS student--he did what he had to do===if not for baseball he would not have gone to college--in fact he graduated college with a higher GPA than he had in HS--his major was Tourism and Hotel Management---it was a fit for him and he enjoyed it--coming out of college he had a job waiting for him at Trump's Hotel in West Palm Beach.

I grew up in an educational environment--my Dad was a college professor, civil engineering, in my youth before he went into the consgtruction business---so I wanted my kids to get college degrees--and three of the boys all played baseball as well

Yes academics should come first, especially in todays world
right arm of zeusright arm of zeus1,000+ posts
WOW, this is a really great debate guys i appreciated reading this, not all of it but 50% as today was the first day i looked at this post. I will share my story.

Didn't like school at all the only thing that kept me in HS was i liked football and baseball. HS g.p.a approx 2.6 was good enough in HS to get a small baseball scholarship at a high level d2 program, this was the only reason i went to college, gave baseball my heart and soul in college along with social activities first semester g.p.a 1.8 learned no more baseball if g.p.a didn't come up, met a girl who taught me how to study and be a good student ended up marrying her 6 years later, the ball players taught me what teachers to take and how to drink, LOL..third year in baseball blew my arm out baseball career over I was a pitcher/outfielder, then thought about leaving college but figured had a good girl, good friends and part of school was done with, might as well stay in school. A semester later got bored decided to ask football coach if i can try out, tried out and life took me to the level of college football player, (being a good student was harder with a football schedule then baseball), ended up being a starting linebacker for also a prestigous d2 football program. Graduated from college in 5 years (wife got 2 degrees in that time, LOL). My degree was sports and event management and fluff or no fluff, sports or not i liked it and it was not easy by any stretch, granted some courses such as golf and kickboxing are cake and are based on attendance but others such as business law and the other variations of higher learning classes were not. After graduating my life took another turn as i went to a tryout and signed to play first base for an independent ball club in the northern states. Played for one year of pro ball in independent leagues hit well .290ish and a couple dingers, got released decided to marry woman. Now i am an educator in a good high school and coach a very successful baseball team. Now i can say that i didn't commit to academics but i learned A LOT along the way about the process of life and not giving up on a dream, trying new things, being successful and failing, dealing with injury, seeing my career end and a new career begin and with this message i teach my students and players now. So academics or sports first academics was a result of my sport. I teach kids if you get drafted go to the minors and give it a shot becuase you never know what road that might open for you next, and as said before by many people in this post is you can always go back to school. I hope this gives another perspective now i think i will read the other 50% of this post, LOL... Sorry about grammar...not a concern on a message board.
Last edited by right arm of zeus
L liner100+ posts
every situation is different, just like some use the board to prop up their kids accomplishments athletically, some do for academic purposes as well. I think any right minded parent wants their kid to succeed and learn the lessons that hard work and dedication provide. There's no right or wrong. it's a long race to the end and if you don't enjoy the ride, or take pride in whatever you do - what's the payoff?
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
I'll back fanofgame up on this one. I was able to play tennis at a JC and keep up with my studies. I walked on and made the team at a D1 but wasn't high enough up the ladder to travel. It was still very tough keeping up with engineering. Because I was a transfer student and out of sequence my senior year was tougher than my junior year. Typically in engineering the junior year is the toughest. I didn't make the team as a senior. If I had I might have flunked out. Any degreee program that isn't clearly designed around playing intercollegiate athletics is going to be tough.

There are a few exceptional people at certain schools who can complete an engineering degree in 4 years while playing baseball but they are few and far between and many baseball programs wouldn't even let them attempt it.
Last edited by CADad
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
This is a great thread. I use myself as an example to my players all the time. When I am talking to them I use stories about my life as examples. Most of the time its "Dont make the same mistakes I made type of stories" and I coach and live my life as another example I want to teach them.

I was one of those guys. That guy that hated school. I was bored to death in school. My parents preached academics. They stressed them all the time. But I could have cared less. I did just enough to stay elgible so I could play baseball and football. If not for those sports in school I would not have made it out of HS. When the time came for recruitment I was offered by several football programs and a couple of baseball programs. None of which I could get into once the grades were checked. In order to continue to play football I went to a JUCO. I had no desire to go to college. NONE. But the only way I was going to be able to continue to play football and make it to the NFL was to go to college. So that is what I did.

Once there a funny thing happened. I realized that if I didnt do enough work to stay elgible I would not be able to continue to play football. So thats what I did. So I ended up getting a 2 year degree and I ended up playing football in college and I got a college experience. I came home had some decisions to make. Go to work or continue my education. I wanted to continue to play football but a season ending knee injury stopped all of that. And without the ability to play football I did not want to go back to school. So I took a job as a police officer.

I got two more degrees while on the force. I put my wife through Carolina working two full time jobs to pay for it. And never looked back. I am convinced if I had never went to college I would have never accomplished what I did. There are many kids who just love the game and dont love school. They are too young to understand the importance of it all. But if they stay in the game long enough they grow up and see the importance of it.

I am a tough guy. I have had to face some tough times. I am way tougher than most people I know. Why? Because most people have never had to do what a college athlete has to do at that age. They have no idea what it takes to battle. Our kids are getting something you can not put a price tag on. They are getting something that will serve them the rest of their lives. When your kids are out of school and looking for work and need a job. Have them call me. I will hire them in a minute. Why? Because if they can do what it takes to do what they are doing they have character , they are tough and they are exactly what I am looking for.

Going to college and working two full time jobs and putting a wife through college is what I did. And it was a piece of cake compared to playing football in college while trying to make the grades needed to stay in school. I admire every young man who plays this game at the college level. You have to love it. Special young men in my opinion.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
There is no right or wrong answer to this, it's more of a personal decision for each player as to what is more important.

As far as engineering and baseball, it can be done, but do understand that the commitment to college baseball at some programs is so tremendous, where expectations are extremely high, it's often discouraged, and players are steered in an easier direction as to their degree. If the desire is to become an engineer, chances are even if it takes 5-6 years, you will be one before you are a MLB player.

Nothing wrong with taking subject matter related to sports, mine took sports management with a minor is business. He's a good student, it was not easy, he had to work hard to maintain the GPA that he set his academic goals for.

Giving advice to someone because you wished that it was a dream that you should have followed or that you didn't achieve, is not productive unless you have been in or know someone who has been in that situation. Don't advise players on what you wished you had done, but rather what may be right for each individual.

Having a son who went to college and now in professional ball, for him going to college first probably, IMO, prepared him more for the pro experience and some life experiences than if he had gone straight out of HS. Coach May got it right, trying to play any college sport and going to class to remain eligible may be one the hardest things one will ever have to do in their lives, that turns boys into men for sure. And mine was pretty mature for an 18 year old going off to college. Perhaps if he had gotten an large amount of money to sign out of HS it would have been different, that money affords you extras that the average milb salary can't support. That money also can be put away for later, if things don't work out, so that you have the ability to go to school and not have to worry about who is going to pay the bills while doing so. While there is a scholarship plan that allows you to attend school, it usually for most players will not cover the entire cost of attending, the money that you are given doesn't earn interest and each time you move up a level they take away money in your plan. Since my son was given $$ to finish school in 2007, tuition is up about 8K a year and he's lost money due to advancement. That's tuition only. Luckily, he has some money put aside to finsih a semester quickly. He's been removed from college 4 years now, we've discussed come the day he has to go back and finish and it doesn't exite him much, even with one year or a bit more to go.

If it is true that you can always go back to school why is it that the MLB fund has so much money it's ridiculous, you can't tell me that everyone offered the scholarship plan went onto play MLB?

If a secondary education isn't important, why do so many well paid ML players, earn their degree?

Sorry Swampboy, there are many places where our boys can learn to become men, with or without the game of baseball. You would be seriously stunned to know how many youngsters in pro ball can't cope, that's why you see lots of alcohol and drug abuse. Don't get me wrong it takes a very special individual to go directly from HS to pro ball and one needs a very strong support system from their family to help in the process. Right out of HS doesn't work for everyone. But it also takes a very special person to handle all that you do playing college sports, being successful on the field as well as in the classroom.

JMO.
Last edited by TPM
N njbb1,000+ posts
Mine was one who went pro out of high school it was his dream and he wanted no part of college ...He works very hard at baseball and its given him an education money can't buy.

I don't think he would have been interested in learning if he had gone to college right out of hs. But after maturing and because he can take on line classes during the season he has been working towards a degree.

There is no "right" way, make it your way
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
quote:
there's a guarantee that a degree will lead to a job (ask your waiter this weekend).


Yes my youngest daughter has an honors degree from a University and paid for it by being a waitress . After graduating she continued to be a waitress. She currently makes as much or more money as a college grad and finds it very exciting .
She worked in the theater district in TO and just moved to a new restaurant (same owners)in the Toronto film Festival building. It is a high end restaurant where tips are often over $500 a night. She says the movie guys are lousy tippers though !
MTHMTH10,000+ posts
Just go to the school websites and check the players' majors. On some sites majors are listed on the roster. On others the info is buried in the media guide, but it's usually there somewhere. Take some of what you find with a grain of salt. A lot of freshmen INTEND to major in engineering, but quickly change to something else.

I looked at the GT site awhile back and as I recall there were maybe 4 kids that were majoring in some form of engineering. The vast majority were in business management, which apparently is the closest thing they have to a jock major at GT. The percentage in engineering at GT is probably higher than any other school. Most places you'll only see 1, maybe 2 kids trying to do it.

My son is in engineering at another ACC school. I can vouch for what CADad said, the junior year is the toughest. He told his mom the other night that even if he wasn't playing baseball he still wouldn't have time to get everything done. Doing both is a heck of a task, no matter what school you're at.

Bottom line is it's doable, but it ain't easy.

quote:
Originally posted by bothsportsdad:
I would be interested to know how many players are majoring in engineering at a school that is at the top of the food chain both academically and baseball wise.. say a Georgia Tech. If a vast majority are majoring in engineering that may answer the question.
OB Ole Ball Coach100+ posts
What a great debate! Never one to pass up an opportunity to throw more gas on the fire; in my opinion, there is just no way that academics ALWAYS could come first, EVEN when you are going to college. The baseball window just isn't open that long.

My oldest is now at a four year school and a junior majoring in business systems. He is a very good student and will likely graduate at the top of his class in four years. Out of high school, he had three options; "Invited walk-on" at a mid level D1, signing for a small scholarship at a nationally ranked Juco (where we thought he had a good chance to play right away), and going as a "regular" walk on at in-state school.

When we looked at all of it, it was actually a pretty easy decision; we chose the juco because it was near home and he figured that if he was going to play higher level ball right away the juco offered the best opportunity. Does it mean that we neglected academics? Maybe in some ways, but our thinking was that his baseball "window" was open for much less time than his academic window.

It might have been different if he wanted to major in engineering, I will grant that, but he was a smart kid with some baseball ability that wanted to see how far he could take it. It is also very fair to say that most of our college decisions have been baseball decisions. If your son can decide that it is not "one OR the other" but "one AND the other" I don't see a problem.

Add Reply

Post
.

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Advanced Search
Advanced Search
Link copied to your clipboard.
×