Should Bond's records be expunged?

How 'bout we let him keep the stats he accumulated against pitchers who used steroids?

Oh, wait, that would be almost all of them.

Marion Jones admitted her steroid use. Bonds has not admitted to doing so. Despite my personal belief that he did, we should wait and see what the results of the investigation are before worrying about records, asterisks, etc..

Where was Weiner when he served as the spokesman for the White House National Drug Policy Office? It was obvious that some guys were getting very big very fast back then as well?

I for one kind of feel sorry for Marion Jones. Evidently she started taking (the clear) in 2000 to prepare for the Olympics. If true, she was great long before taking steroids. (Sound familiar)

They did strip her of the records and medals from 2000 and 2001. But she was the world’s fastest women long before that.

So the problem is this when it comes to Bonds… How much of what he accomplished should be banned? Obviously there might be evidence that shows he used steroids at some point, so if that portion of his career was disallowed, that would be enough to give Hank back his record. But does baseball deny that he ever played, what does that accomplish? I believe there should be a lot of importance placed on this (and there is) so that the younger generation understands what the ramifications might be.

This is much larger than just a baseball issue.

Some claim we need to be more like track and field. If track and field is so much better than the other sports when it comes to dealing with this problem, why did it take them 7 years to take away Marion Jone’s medals? Oddly enough, it was 2001 when Bonds hit 73 homeruns. Both Bonds and Marion Jones were charged with lying which was discovered by others rather than the governing body or the testing procedure of those sports.

Regarding track and field… How about all those medals that the East German and Russian women won before the rules were instituted in track and field and swimming? Anyone remember those young girls who looked like NFL linebackers? Should they be stripped of all those medals and records?

I keep thinking about Shoeless Joe Jackson and the fact that he was stripped of more by association, yet this sent a rigid message that gambling would never be tolerated and that those caught would be forever expelled. Now with the large amount of foreign players that travel in and out of the country. Their homelands are more lax on availability of these controlled substances and the poor country's that many of these athletes come from, with sports being the only way out. This would naturally lead to them doing whatever they needed to. Change their names and falsify birth certificates and take drugs. The solution is simple yet harsh. Like shoeless Joe expelled for life that should create enough fear.

How can any records been expunged in any sport if NOBODY knows who did what , where and when ?

What about the tennis world going back to Martina? Currently with the Williams sisters?

Go back to the days when the US could never dominate the Field events in the Olympics and the Europoeans did?

Are they going to check Carl Lewis?

I still feel they should declare a 2 year grace period, beginning this coming Jan 1, in all sports and go from there. Any records and stats from prior to then will remain due simply to the fact that no clear definition of who did and who did not can be made.

At this point it is all a big IF. However, IF he is convicted for "lying about the use of steroids" it is a conviction for a very specific act. It will be interested to see what MLB does, should this happen.

Clearly performance enhancing drug use was widespread and I think 50 years from now this time period will be labeled as such, and records set during this time period be labeled as suspect. Unfortunately for Barry he is being set up as the poster child for this activity like Shoeless Joe Jackson.

I don't think Barry should be stripped of anything. And BB irritates me more than any other player. If he was hit by a bus today all I would care about is if the bus driver was OK. Do I think he cheated? Oh yea. Do I think he will get caught? Oh yea. But the man was/is great. He was playing against and with a lot of players that were doing the same thing and they couldn't accomplish what he did. Does it make it right? Heck no. But no matter what, he was phenomenal, even pre roid. HOF in my book and I hate the guy.
Story time.
One of my friends had a room mate at ASU who played with Barry. Here is what happened one day. The team had a meeting about BB. They voted to kick him off of the team because of his incredible ego and all around attitude. They couldn't deal with it anymore. The captains went to the coaches office after the meeting to tell the coach what they thought had to be done in the best interest of the team. The coach listened for 5 minutes, figured out where the conversation was headed and told them to get out of his office. His talent has always out weighed his arrogance. Even as a 19 year old.

If so, then all horses track records performed after the use of laxis, must be banned. Kelso, Boston Dancer, Secretariat ect...they don't had the help of that drug to breathe better and avoid bleeding during the race. Nothing is comparable in different times, every time brings it own circumstace. With or with out roids, Barry is a better hitter, for much, than Henry Aaron. Records are not that important, Ruth had 3000 at bats less than AAron, and at the same time, Ted Williams expend 5 of his best years at war, Willie Mays played all his career hitting against the strong wind of San Francisco...at same conditions, who knows wich one of them will hit more HRs?

quote:

How about all those medals that the East German and Russian women won before the rules were instituted in track and field and swimming?

This brings up a very good subject. Steriods have been around for a LONG Time. 30 to 40 or more years. I was a college swimmer back in the 70s. I personally saw other athletes, with Steriods and shooting up in locker rooms. And this was amateur athletes... and SWIMMERS who for all but one or two did not have a lot of monetary gains possible. Do you think PROFESSIONAL athletes weren’t doing the SAME thing, at the same time? The Steriod era started way before the 90s. How do we know Hank didn’t used them? Or perhaps used "greenies"...? How do we know Babe Ruth didn’t use some substances that are now banned. or corked his bats??? We don’t. The players played within the RULEs at the time. Good or bad as they may be at the time. That was the playing field.

Thanks goodness this has changed, because there is no way I want my son's to have to make the decision as to whether or not to use steriods. That is a difficult choice for a young person. I had to make that choice in the 70s, and it was tempting, because you felt CHEATED because you knew many others were doing it and you just wanted an equal chance. I choose not to, but I wasn't a World Class athlete at that point and there really wasn't the reward potential availabe for me, But for others, who were close to being the next Mark Spitz, many choose to take the drugs for a few seasons...

Now multiply that pressure by the millions of dollars now available...

I don't believe in going back and removing records.

All very valid points IMO

We have to first get rid of the hate involved in this thing. But more importantly we need to get rid of the steroid use.

There might be a bright light at the end of the tunnel! The records mean very little when compared to the welfare of young people. If all this stuff can stop steroid usage, that is good enough for me. Who holds the record is just not as important as getting this thing turned around. IMO

Rambling thoughts for Friday night and they are not well thought out btw...

I had forgotten about East Germany. One of the tinyest countries on earth at the time yet some how they were dominating several sports on the world stage

I think there is a difference between courts of law and the court of public opinion. I think it is possible for civil bodies like MLB and record keepers and voters and the public to make judgments about things without necessarily having the proof required to convict someone in court. I don't think Hank Aaron ever did anything illegal btw.

I don't think baseball had a steroid problem until recent times and we have the rich tradition of the baseball record books to prove it. Up until the time of Ruth, hitting 20 homeruns was a major accomplishment. I have a hunch when Ruth started hitting them, dynamics of the ball had changed and the new standard for the maximum number of homeruns the top player could hit was set at sixty. That record stood for years and was broken by Roger Maris decades later by one homerun. Thus, we know for certain that the absolute threshold with reliable certainty was around sixty homeruns. That record then again stood for decades.

I think the steroid problem in baseball happened in the early to mid 90's and was first noticed by me when Brady Anderson hit 50 homeruns. That made no sense and it still does not. Albert Belle and Matt Williams were also bursting on to the seen at that time. Then, out of nowhere a record that had stood for decades was demolished by three individuals simulataneously - McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds. I think that those three should be considered equally. Also, without convicting anyone, we can make judgments about Byrd and the like who do not seem to have legitimate reasons for taking performance enhancing drugs. Recovering from a career threatning injury illegitamtely is the ultimate performance enhancer imho. Othersw who have been shown to have purchased chemicals can also be considered. Palmero and the like are known.

I think it is possible to say that even though a player used he may have been a hall of famer in his own right. I can also understand if they are removed from the record books and banished from the hall or further acclaim.

I agree with PG that records mean little. It is far more important that we clean this up for our kids than what the record books say. What bugs me is I believe the technology exists to do something about this now and that may inconveniently include blood testing. I don't think that is asking too much when the rewards are so great and the temptations/dangers for our youth are simply too much.

Make a deal with Barry.

All the records stay - as long as he goes away now.