Should college baseball have pitch count rules

This is a tough one.

What I do think is that if they did institute pitch counts I think they should be relatively high  120-140 ish.  And enforce 4 days of rest.  I'd hate to be forced to pull a guy in college because he reached 100 pitches in the 8th inning.  One of the things that also kills some college pitchers is the starting Friday nights game then closing Saturday.  I think you could have rules against relief appearances for anyone having x number of pitches or innings as a starter that week.

The other side of this is like my son's team's top pitcher is taking his grad year at a D1, so he basically all senior season told the coach when he was going to pitch and always against weaker competition on a weekday.

RJM,

College pitching is nothing like it was when you were a college pitcher.

All pitchers are different.  All starters will follow strict protocols on max pitch counts and days rest. Relievers have different protocols. Their training is amazing.  This is probably standard in all of the more successful programs. I can't speak for mid D1 or D2,D3  programs but I would imagine there is some abuse. I have seen a Friday night guy throw an inning on Saturday. I am sorry that is just unacceptable in my book. Maybe that's where pitch counts should be used, but to be realistic these are not future pro players.

It's son's job to keep an eye out on every pitcher during the game. The coaches usually know when whoever is pitching is ready to exit, despite pitch counts. That's as it should be. The pitcher already knows when he is coming out.

Florida took a hit about not throwing their best pitcher on the first day of conference play offs. This was coming off of a really important series against Georgia. No way was that going to happen on 4 days rest for a freshman who turned down millions to go to play in college.

I am against mandatory pitch counts because the abuse isn't as prevalent as it used to be. Or maybe it is?

It's every parents responsibility to be familiar with pitching protocols set by the coaches. I can't say what is right or wrong. We have a closer who could throw everyday but it isn't a usual thing that happens. A lot depends on how the pitcher projects.

JMO

All starters will follow strict protocols on max pitch counts and days rest.

Stop! What your son does as a pitching coach doesn’t speak for all schools.  I’ve seen pitchers this weekend going 120+ pitches. I guarantee there will be Friday and Saturday pitchers on the mound today in relief. It happens every year.

A coach would have to wrestle me for the ball when I started. I’m sure most pitchers feel this way. When I relieved in college it was different. I knew I was in for specific hitters. I heard a story (verified) one pitcher a few years ago told his coach to “Go back to the effing dugout” when the coach came out to pull him in the eighth.

It’s on the coach to show proper disgression. Not all do. Pat Casey trashing Keven Abel’s arm was only a few years ago. At the time Abel said he woukd do it again to win a CWS. They won. But how does he feel now that he’s mid 20s and he’s struggled in his comeback the minors? He went from top prospect (big money to not in the draft.

There are many pitchers that can throw 120 this time of year.  There are lots of coaches who will not sacrifice arms. The difference is that they know what they are doing.

You asked a question in your topic.

My answer is no.

Some guys can handle it, some can’t. Some can handle it until they can’t. Every pitcher is different. Only way to be certain is to use caution, even then it doesn’t always work.

Watched a kid rehab religiously from TJ. Got the clear for games to go 50 pitches or 5 innings. 20 pitches in and the 3rd inning he blew it out again.

Mine pitched 4 innings of relief in the conference tournament on Thurs. I was surprised to see him get the start in the conf final on Saturday. While we are good, we are not built for tournament play. I actually wish there were more in season tournaments so coaches could play around with pitching.

When it comes tournament time I have noticed a lot of riding starters well past their expiration point - even if the pitch count isn't all the way up.

Watching ECU vs Wake last night it's not hard to see why.

There are Pitch Smart guidelines for college-aged pitchers. They seem reasonable to me and it would be pretty rare to see these limits exceeded for a pro pitcher.

https://www.mlb.com/pitch-smar...uidelines/ages-19-22

College coaches do not always have the kids best interest in mind. It would be ideal but it doesn’t always happen. I see no reason that guidelines being rules would hurt. It takes the pressure off everyone on judgement calls, that may be wrong and ruin a career.

I've seen some pretty crazy stuff in terms of use. Some coaches are notorious for it, others are known for not doing it. I don't think having NCAA rules makes sense, as every individual situation is different. By the time you are in college you should have a sense of all of this. Not that college players are necessarily "adults" in the sense that they know what is best for them, but they should have adults around them who do, at that point.

I think in college it's more of an issue with rest between appearances than pitches in a game. UNC going to their 18yo freshman 2 days after throwing 65 pitches.

But rest assured I'm sure all the coaches and "recruiting advisors" that take to twitter vilifying travel and high school ball for overuse will certainly call out college coaches.

UConn pitcher threw 124 pitches Saturday. He’s pitching in relief Monday on one day of rest.

College coaches abuse pitchers when they need to win but have no depth.   Pitch counts probably won't work, as there are too many divergent opinions about a pitcher's max workload, but mandatory rest days would work.  If a pitcher can't be available because the rules say so, then the coach can't make an 18-year-old starter relieve on one day of rest.   In college, the player obviously can't say no to the coach, and the parent also can't be involved. I say "no" to pitch counts but yes to mandatory rest days.  BTW, changing the traditional tournament scheduling would also work, although it might not be popular.

@RJM posted:

UConn pitcher threw 124 pitches Saturday. He’s pitching in relief Monday on one day of rest.

Gage Jump threw 102 on Friday, then 51 yesterday after coming off Tommy John.  I'm sure his agent/advisor was totally puckered up.

At what age/level is it OK to allow guys to throw on short rest?

@Master P posted:

Gage Jump threw 102 on Friday, then 51 yesterday after coming off Tommy John.  I'm sure his agent/advisor was totally pucked up.

As he should be. Irresponsible.

Meanwhile, in the D3 CWS, the championship round, which was supposed to start on Wednesday, was moved up to Tuesday due to possible bad weather on Wednesday.  Thereby screwing up all the pitching.

Can you imagine if they did this in D1?

@anotherparent posted:

Can you imagine if they did this in D1?

It has been a bad weather year in men's  college baseball, D1 included.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

At what age/level is it OK to allow guys to throw on short rest?

I don't think it's appropriate at any age.

But there are many circumstances when it often comes up and this time of year is it.

@TPM posted:

It has been a bad weather year in men's  college baseball, D1 included.

Did they move games up instead of back? The D3 CWS was supposed to have an off day before the finals.

double headers

But not in a double-elimination CWS tournament where every pitcher's pitch count and every day of rest matters, which is what this thread is about.

I don't understand your comment. Other divisions play double elimination all the time.

Take a look at last weekends games to get to super regionals.

The West Virginia starter just threw 144 pitches. That's crazy.

@Master P posted:

The West Virginia starter just threw 144 pitches. That's crazy.

He’s a 5’9” senior throwing 88. He might as well leave it all on the field. He’s gone 120+ pitches five times these season. It’s a bit much.

@Master P posted:

The West Virginia starter just threw 144 pitches. That's crazy.

In a month he’ll be working in an office somewhere. This is the end of his baseball career. If he wanted to stay out there I’m glad the coach gave him the chance.

If they win the series, he'll pitch next week...

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

In a month he’ll be working in an office somewhere. This is the end of his baseball career. If he wanted to stay out there I’m glad the coach gave him the chance.

And he gave up the tying homer first pitch of that inning,.  You can't tell me he was their best option at that time and place.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

In a month he’ll be working in an office somewhere. This is the end of his baseball career. If he wanted to stay out there I’m glad the coach gave him the chance.

This ^^^^^^^^ !!!!!!

That kid was a warrior! He was a D2 guy last year. I have no problem with the pitch count or the results. You only know what that kid was feeling if you have ever pitched a big game. Randy Mazey gave him his moment as a reward for what he did this season. It didn’t work out. But that doesn’t mean anyone was wrong.

Regardless of the absurd pitch count, he'd already given up 5 runs through 8. That doesn't scream "he must go out for the 9th so he can pitch a complete game" to me. You let a guy keep going when he's got a shutout or a no-hitter, not giving up runs at a 5.63 ERA clip.

@Master P posted:

And he gave up the tying homer first pitch of that inning,.  You can't tell me he was their best option at that time and place.

They don’t have a good bullpen. Either way, I don’t think the coach was thinking about their best option. As noted, the coach felt he earned the right to go out for the 9th based on a season of work.

He will not be working in an office, IMO.  He is ranked 500 by BA and will likely sign with someone.  Even if not, he could play professionally for a while.  I agree with the posters who are appalled by the coach's decision.  Any reliever is better than a starter with 144 pitches; should college players have less strict guidelines than the MLB? A minor league coach would be fired the next day.

I believe the coach  followed his amazing and overworked starter (who despite an amazing game will have to unfairly live with the memory of that home run -- which he shouldn't have been on the mound throwing --for the rest of his life)  with a likely Day 1 draft pick, so clearly there were other options.  The coach lost that game 100%.

@RHP_Parent posted:

He will not be working in an office, IMO.  He is ranked 500 by BA and will likely sign with someone.  Even if not, he could play professionally for a while.  I agree with the posters who are appalled by the coach's decision.  Any reliever is better than a starter with 144 pitches; should college players have less strict guidelines than the MLB? A minor league coach would be fired the next day.

I believe the coach  followed his amazing and overworked starter (who despite an amazing game will have to unfairly live with the memory of that home run -- which he shouldn't have been on the mound throwing --for the rest of his life)  with a likely Day 1 draft pick, so clearly there were other options.  The coach lost that game 100%.

Do you mean the guy who gave up the walk off homer?

I don't have a problem with the 144, the kid threw 5 complete games this year - 4 in a row at one point - some guys are work horses.

I just don't think he should have come back out for the 9th. I haven't followed WV too much but if they don't have bullpen arms I'm not sure how they've made it this far. He wasn't sharp enough to justify it. It's not like he got banged around early and settled down either.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

They don’t have a good bullpen. Either way, I don’t think the coach was thinking about their best option. As noted, the coach felt he earned the right to go out for the 9th based on a season of work.

It was a Super Regional, not Senior Day. No pitcher is at his best the fourth time through the lineup.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Do you mean the guy who gave up the walk off homer?

How about the guy who pitched 2.2 hitless innings today?

@auberon, have you ever played baseball? Asking for a friend

Yes. Although never in a game where someone threw 144 pitches.

@auberon posted:

It was a Super Regional, not Senior Day. No pitcher is at his best the fourth time through the lineup.

How about the guy who pitched 2.2 hitless innings today?

Ok, so it was the guy who gave up the walk off homer though, right?

Randy Mazey is the kind of coach that every kid wants to play for. I invite you to watch the postgame interview if you need to be convinced. Mazey is an emotional man that doesn’t hide his love for his players. It’s genuine - it’s not turned on when cameras are around. He manages his team using more of a moral compass to guide him than data analysts. Going forward in life his players will be better people having played for a man like that. My college coach was a man like that. Unfortunately they are a dying breed. People that can’t get past the 144 pitch count are undervaluing the human element of what happened. That little 5’-8” LHP was pitching the last game of his life - after having a career season that included multiple complete games.He isn’t playing pro ball unless it’s for the Savannah Bananas. Mazey left him in the game to give him a chance to finish off the biggest game of that kid’s career. It was theater and every player wants a coach that will give him a chance for something special on a big stage. It didn’t work out but I respect the kid for leaving it all out there and I respect Mazey for staying with him. In this instance, not going thru the lineup a 4th time is a much more solid argument from a baseball perspective than pitch count. College baseball needs more Randy Mazeys as HCs and fewer CEOs as HCs.

I don't doubt he cares about his players, that doesn't make him immune to bad decisions. You'd be very hard-pressed to find a postseason game, college or pro, in recent decades where a starter was sent out to protect a 1-run lead in the 9th after giving up 5+ runs through 8. You don't need advanced analytics to know that's asking for trouble. He let the emotion of the situation influence him to make a decision with a low probability of success.