Should college baseball have pitch count rules

auberon;

I noticed you are from California. Do you know the history of Gary Adcock, Head Baseball Coach at Cal Baptist.

In 1989, he traveled to Korea with our American Goodwill Series team and Gary pitched a complete game against the Korea National HS TEAM.

Our team was 18 players, including 6 pitchers [3 future MLB pitchers].

We played 7 games in 9 days. The National team from Japan also played in this Goodwill Series. The "psych" and the "effortless" style of a pitcher can effect durability.

Bob

I don’t believe allowing a kid to through 144 pitches in the last serious game he will ever play is a bad idea. Unless he injures his arm so badly he can’t play catch with his future kids (extremely unlikely) where’s the harm?

The game had definitely changed. From LL through high school I finished every game I started. In high school I sometimes closed games in didn’t start. I never had a sore arm. I would be guessing if asked how many pitches I threw in an inning, game or week. It wasn’t a thing. The thing was the coach asking how you feel.

I don’t remember there being as many arm problems as there are now. I was always throwing during the baseball season. I didn’t play fall ball until college. By then I was a situational lefty and position player. My arm was strong. I don’t recollect thinking to myself, “I better not unload a throw from center after pitching a complete game in the first game of this doubleheader.” No coach ever said it.

And, yes. Until we moved to a Southern California I pitched uphill in three feet of snow.

Hi @Consultant, I am aware that Cal Baptist has had a lot of competitive baseball teams as they've gone from NAIA to D2 to D1, but not the story of Gary Adcock specifically. Thanks for sharing.

It looks like the last time a Cal Baptist pitcher pitched a 9-inning complete game was 2021 when a guy did it 3 times with a max of 106 pitches. This season he let a starter who had a 2-hit shutout with 92 pitches start the 9th, but pulled him at 102 pitches.  He doesn't seem like a coach with a preference for seeing how many complete games he can get out of his pitchers.

I have nothing against letting a starter pitch deep into games when he's having a dominant performance. The WVU pitcher was not having a dominant performance.

I had some time to read over this thread.

I agree with adbono 100%. He nailed it.

For those who are horrified at the pitch count, please keep in mind that the team just went thru a tough conference year,  a conference championship, playoff regional. It's grueling.

Coach was essentially out of fresh arms. No way could he get passed UNC.

Did he give up, no he let the guy who helped them get to where they were at that point have his day.

JMO

I agree with keeping a pitcher pitching the last relevant game in his life unless his team wins in the game. I don’t like to see pro prospects ridden like a mule until their arm falls off and affecting their future pro career.

The kid who threw 144 pitches was drafted in the 9th round.   

So much for it being ok to blow out his arm because he wasn’t going pro. Hopefully he doesn’t end up like Alek Manoah, another guy WVU rode hard and put away wet.

@auberon posted:

So much for it being ok to blow out his arm because he wasn’t going pro. Hopefully he doesn’t end up like Alek Manoah, another guy WVU rode hard and put away wet.

Where did anyone say it's ok to blow out anyone's arm? I'm not aware of anything that shows a direct correlation between pitch counts and injury.

Recently a study showed that while certain offspeed/breaking pitches do not put the same amount of stress (as measured in newtons) on the UCL it's possible that when throwing them, it puts the pronator flexor mass in a disadvantaged position which is what protects the UCL.

I just bring this up because I think anyone that says they know exactly what causes pitcher injuries shouldn't/can't be relied on. Sure there are precautions to take, but I think when your dealing with the fringes (players that get drafted, etc) cookie cutter approaches to pitch counts like PitchSmart don't work.

He threw 144 pitches, if he hadn't shown the balls he did in that game does he get drafted in that round? I don't know, but neither do you, but it's very easy to come in after the fact I guess.

@nycdad posted:

Where did anyone say it's ok to blow out anyone's arm? I'm not aware of anything that shows a direct correlation between pitch counts and an injury.

Recently a study showed that while certain offspeed/breaking pitches do not put the same amount of stress (as measured in newtons) on the UCL it's possible that when throwing them, it puts the pronator flexor mass in a disadvantaged position which is what protects the UCL.

I just bring this up because I think anyone that says they know exactly what causes pitcher injuries shouldn't can't be relied on. Sure there are precautions to take, but I think when your dealing with the fringes (players that get drafted, etc) cookie cutter approaches to pitch counts like PitchSmart don't work.

He threw 144 pitches, if he hadn't shown the balls he did in that game does he get drafted in that round? I don't know, but neither do you, but it's very easy to come in after the fact I guess.

This is a good take. People that are hung up on pitch counts don’t really understand the game. IMO max velocity training is what’s responsible for the increase in injury rates. But citing pitch count is the lowest hanging fruit if you want to virtue signal.

I don't think so but it needs to be much different than HS.  Mine pitched in 9 straight playoff games this year and was probably never strained.  It is all in how you use a player and how developed they are. 

@nycdad posted:

Where did anyone say it's ok to blow out anyone's arm? I'm not aware of anything that shows a direct correlation between pitch counts and injury.

Recently a study showed that while certain offspeed/breaking pitches do not put the same amount of stress (as measured in newtons) on the UCL it's possible that when throwing them, it puts the pronator flexor mass in a disadvantaged position which is what protects the UCL.

I just bring this up because I think anyone that says they know exactly what causes pitcher injuries shouldn't/can't be relied on. Sure there are precautions to take, but I think when your dealing with the fringes (players that get drafted, etc) cookie cutter approaches to pitch counts like PitchSmart don't work.

He threw 144 pitches, if he hadn't shown the balls he did in that game does he get drafted in that round? I don't know, but neither do you, but it's very easy to come in after the fact I guess.

For the win. Above the baseline rate of wear and tear UCL type injuries, there was the latest en vogue pitch many added over the winter (across all levels of baseball) that likely added to the additional rash/ rate of injuries this past March/ April (across ALL levels of baseball). Nearly got my son, and until he either has Popeye forearms and/or finds the sweet spot of slot and grip to allow the FPM to absorb most of the stresses when throwing that pitch, as gross and eye popping as it was, he won't throw it again. Meister flat out said he can (just) look at a UCL injury on an MRI and often often deduce (correctly) what the "last" pitch was... He seemed to insinuate pitches with gobs of horizontal movement (sweepers and "power" changeups) were to blame. Sadly, business for him is GOOD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0rk1MbsIR4

So both my sons have had UCL repairs. My oldest an internal brace, and is now back to 100% looking for a grad school, and his younger brother had *hybrid* UCL surgery (UCL reconstruction with internal brace) that Meister  pioneered I believe.

I would say with my oldest it was likely brought on by throwing over 50% sweepers. It was like a new toy.

My youngest went from relief to Friday night starter this year. He had a natural jump in *avg* velo. He wasn't on any kind of velo program, but I believe in Synergy his FB was averaging 91.8 prior to his final start where everything went to sh*t. He also throws a slider and power changeup. When they converted him from relief to starter there wasn't a huge jump in pitch count. They worked him up slowly. I don't think he ended up every going more than 90 pitches in a start.

My question for the injured guys who throw a ton of sweepers, did they ever feel pain or soreness leading up to the injury?

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

My question for the injured guys who throw a ton of sweepers, did they ever feel pain or soreness leading up to the injury?

NOPE. I will say that anecdotally not all (dangerous) sweepers are created equal. If you throw it from a lower slot (15-30deg) , esp to get that horizontal frisbee action, youre leaving the UCL flapping in the wind to carry the load all by itself... and the harder the pitch is thrown that way, the higher the load and risk of (sudden) failure. Guys who throw it more from 45 deg slot, (more of a slurve) I'm SPITBALLING are allowing the FPM to help bear some of the additional stress. I saw that study referenced and more research needs to be done! Until then I dont know what I'm talking about either.

@GratefulNTXlurker posted:

NOPE. I will say that anecdotally not all (dangerous) sweepers are created equal. If you throw it from a lower slot (15-30deg) , esp to get that horizontal frisbee action, youre leaving the UCL flapping in the wind to carry the load all by itself... and the harder the pitch is thrown that way, the higher the load and risk of (sudden) failure. Guys who throw it more from 45 deg slot, (more of a slurve) I'm SPITBALLING are allowing the FPM to help bear some of the additional stress. I saw that study referenced and more research needs to be done! Until then I dont know what I'm talking about either.

How about this slot from a sidearm guy?

My understanding is that high horizontal movement pitches, from a lower slot, leave the ends of the UCL, especially the distal connection at the ulna, very vulnerable to failure/ avulsion. Damage at the ends (ulna or medial epicondyle) lend themselves to internal brace repair. They reuse the existing UCL.

High velocity damage looks more like the middle/ substance of the UCL itself damage/tear. These need TRUE ol fashioned TJ repair. Orthos are adding the internal brace repair ON TOP of trad TJ repair just in case.

@nycdad I find it interesting that the son who threw a ton of sweepers had the internal brace repair, which suggests Meister is on to something in that the damage must have been at the ends, not within the vast majority of the UCL itself.

Your other son had the SUPRArepair and either had damage EVERYWHERE, or in the substance of the UCL itself. Does he throw HARDER than the other son?

I can ALWAYS be wrong. More research is warranted!

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

How about this slot from a sidearm guy?

I'm not a kinesiologist, orthopedist or pitching guru. I'm parroting a lot of what I write from what Ive learned in preparing for worst case scenarios in the past and reading between the lines in what experts like Meister have said. Like many other on these forums have suggested, medicine (esp nowadays) is a business. And business is (sadly) is GOOD. Why empower the people with too much info to ruin business?

True sidearmers are a wonder to me. How Kent Tekulve pitched for as long and effectively as he did is a wonder. One of the challenges I forsee with any additional research is the ability to control for pitching mechanics. I think what exacerbates and accelerates injuries are lousy mechanics. A late supinating arm with a release point off to the side is leaving the UCL on an island. Coupe that with a gloveside that's simultaneously overactive and flying open and I cant imagine how the UCL isn't crying out UNCLE.

From the best I can see in this pic, the release point is out front, and moreover the arm does not look over supinated, and if anything, looks like it's about to turn over and pronate. He's not flying off to 1st (and again he's releasing out in front) , so he likely didnt fly open glove side. My good for nothing opinion says this guy is likely healthy and actually fine.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

My question for the injured guys who throw a ton of sweepers, did they ever feel pain or soreness leading up to the injury?

My son did not. He went off to play summer ball, came back, took maybe a week off from throwing and started up again. That's when he felt something. Didn't think it was out of the ordinary but after it didn't go away went and got it checked out.

Also FWIW my oldest for the last few years has been about year round throwing, doesn't really shut it down. My youngest does shut it down usually at the end of the summer.

Kevin Vance the Arizona PC was on Cressey's podcast last week. He seems to be an advocate of year round throwing, and having pitchers throwing off the mound frequently. IIRC they had a very healthy staff this year.

I am in the camp that it depends on how you throw your breaking pitch, if you over emphasize the supination such that it interferes with the arm going naturally into pronation, that is when the UCL takes on the load from deceleration.  Pitchers tend to stay on that sweeper longer than a straight curve or slider trying to get more spin than is natural which delays pronation.

PS.  I am also in the camp of year round throwing, but not year round pitching.  I do think the pitch counts were brought in the youth game to guard against parents who have their kids on 14 different teams pitching without rest.

@HSDad22 posted:

I am in the camp that it depends on how you throw your breaking pitch, if you over emphasize the supination such that it interferes with the arm going naturally into pronation, that is when the UCL takes on the load from deceleration.  Pitchers tend to stay on that sweeper longer than a straight curve or slider trying to get more spin than is natural which delays pronation.

FOR THE WIN

@GratefulNTXlurker posted:

I'm not a kinesiologist, orthopedist or pitching guru. I'm parroting a lot of what I write from what Ive learned in preparing for worst case scenarios in the past and reading between the lines in what experts like Meister have said. Like many other on these forums have suggested, medicine (esp nowadays) is a business. And business is (sadly) is GOOD. Why empower the people with too much info to ruin business?

True sidearmers are a wonder to me. How Kent Tekulve pitched for as long and effectively as he did is a wonder. One of the challenges I forsee with any additional research is the ability to control for pitching mechanics. I think what exacerbates and accelerates injuries are lousy mechanics. A late supinating arm with a release point off to the side is leaving the UCL on an island. Coupe that with a gloveside that's simultaneously overactive and flying open and I cant imagine how the UCL isn't crying out UNCLE.

From the best I can see in this pic, the release point is out front, and moreover the arm does not look over supinated, and if anything, looks like it's about to turn over and pronate. He's not flying off to 1st (and again he's releasing out in front) , so he likely didnt fly open glove side. My good for nothing opinion says this guy is likely healthy and actually fine.

Thanks! I’m enjoying your posts on this topic. This pitch was actually a fastball, couldn’t find any pics or video of a slider/sweeper. I think (at least hope) one of the things that helps him is his sidearm isn’t as much of a dropped arm slot, but more of a torso tilt to release from down there.