Should it be the Best Player?

Every coach runs his program differently. We've had 3 coaches in 4 years at our son's high school, and they were each very different.

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to your questions 1 & 3. I think the "right" answer depends on what situation YOUR son is in. Perspective changes a lot depending on that.

When our son entered high school, varsity coach would not put a freshman on varsity, period. Current coach has no problem with putting freshman on varsity. Neither scenario had any real impact on our son in the end.

As for a code of ethics, of course a coach should abide by one, but not on the issues you raise IMO. His ethics should be about teaching and enforcing integrity, sportsmanship, competitiveness, honoring the game, and maturing into a respectful young man.

I think the saying is: "Where you stand depends on where you sit." It's hard for me to conceive of a situation with 7th through 12th graders trying out for 28 spots, JV and Varsity, at one school? But a couple of comments:
1. It's typical for schools/leagues etc. to have a rule that seniors can't play on JV.
2. Even with the tiny class sizes implied by the scenario, I have a hard time picturing 7th graders (who are what - 12? 13?) competing physically with 17 and 18 year old high school juniors and seniors in any competitive sport.
3. Personally, I like a program which keeps all players in the younger age groups together, and doesn't call them up to Varsity until they're sophomores or juniors, rather than annointing the "prospects" early and pushing the other players aside. On the other hand, I have yet to hear a convincing argument that one way or the other is "right".

D'oh!

P-Dog,
I have seen several players, both of whom were 13 who were far superior to any athlete's I had ever seen. Once a young man in the 13yr-USSSA World Series in the year 2001 playing for the the Houston Sox in OK was throwing 88 consistently with a whopping curve ball around 75. Rumors were that he had been featured in Sports Illustrated. I believe he could have played on most any high school team.

Justbball,
As for what you say about ethics, of course this is what we expect all HS coaches to represent, but is it in today's world?

A ball player's got to be kept hungry to become a big leaguer. That's why no boy from a rich family ever made the big leagues.
Joe Dimaggio (b. 1914), U.S. baseball player. Quoted in: New York Times (30 April 1961).

big dawg,
i think that MOST high school coaches show or represent ethics. not sure what your comment was suppose to mean. can you clarify please

Quote:
(by thebigdawg)
I have seen several players, both of whom were 13 who were far superior to any athlete's I had ever seen. Once a young man in the 13yr-USSSA World Series in the year 2001 playing for the the Houston Sox in OK was throwing 88 consistently with a whopping curve ball around 75.>

These kids need to by pass high school and college and sign a pro contract.
13 years old throwing 88 consistently..that means he's topping out at 91/92.
I agree with mittman, MOST high school coaches show or represent ethics.

Being a stud at 13 DOES NOT guarantee his being a stud as a HS Senior

At 13 what mound distance was he pitching from?

Not many 13 years olds in HS these days either

TRhit

A 13 year old throwing 83* is pretty impressive.

*I've found over the years that it's always a good idea to deduct 5 form any radar reading you are TOLD

mittman,
Fortunately, our HS coach is top notch and very ethical. However, I have seen other coaches in districts who consistently break the practice rules during the off season. They conduct and hold team practices before the rules allow. What I'm curious about is if the pressure to win is widespread and if so what are some of the experiences of others who have been thru the HS experience.
Cats,
The 13 year old I saw was that good! I would like to know his status now but not sure if I can put his name out here for inquiry..I know he could play HS ball but your comment about the pros is a little far fetched.
TrHit,
The pitching mound was 55ft. My jugs registered speeds at the release point and not at the plate, so distance is irrevelant here.
So what do HS coaches do when they're confronted with today's pressures to keep their jobs and their duties to all the kids?

A ball player's got to be kept hungry to become a big leaguer. That's why no boy from a rich family ever made the big leagues.
Joe Dimaggio (b. 1914), U.S. baseball player. Quoted in: New York Times (30 April 1961).

I think that if you put forty kids on a field, run them through drills for a week in front of 10 different coaches, I would guess they would pretty much pick the same 18-20 players for a team, maybe one to three kids maybe be different. Now the coach will address his needs and those needs are not always physical or talent in nature. You would like someone to be a leader preferably a senior who can keep everyone loose and focused. This happened on my son's varsity squad last year. One player did not have the best skills, speed or talent but he really could keep the team focused and loose. It was the difference in the team, IMO and they advanced to the state finals. There may have been better players on the team but not in the terms of leadership. Personally, I think you have to be some kind of wonder to play as a freshman or sophomore in the larger classes of any state. I think it is more the parents than the player who really wants to be on the varsity team as an underclassman (fr and soph).

13 in '01? He should be a soph or junior by now, and on everyone's radar screens. Who is this phenom, and what's he up to now?

D'oh!

P-Dog,
It took me a bit to locate the info and I believe this to be correct. First I went to the USSSA site and found the 13 yr major tournament in OK and it showed the Houston Sox winning the tourney but no stats or other info. Then I found reference to Ryan Mitchell from Magnolia High School in Texas at :
http://www.teamfloridausa.com/Alumni/Alumniroster.html
and I also found him mentioned in an article at baseball america top 2005 prospect:
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/leagues/HS_amateur/030810areacodebt.html

Sounds like the real deal eh?

A ball player's got to be kept hungry to become a big leaguer. That's why no boy from a rich family ever made the big leagues.
Joe Dimaggio (b. 1914), U.S. baseball player. Quoted in: New York Times (30 April 1961).

Odd coincidence that one Ryan Mitchell goes to school at Magnolia HS in Texas and another Ryan Mitchell goes to school at Magnolia HS in Calif....

Wonder which one is correct?

SDBB,
I noticed that myself but I don't think there are two players with the same name, same high school name, same year of grad being featured as a top prospect for 2005. I would think the California reference should have been Texas. I did see him play for the Houston Sox. Well maybe he move to High School in California with the same name. Would appreciate anyone that has any personnal knowledge (pitching speed) of this player. Thanks

A ball player's got to be kept hungry to become a big leaguer. That's why no boy from a rich family ever made the big leagues.
Joe Dimaggio (b. 1914), U.S. baseball player. Quoted in: New York Times (30 April 1961).

Whoa! This kid was 6'3", 200 lbs. as a 13 year old. And throwing consistently in the high 80's? I stand corrected. He could play with the "big boys" anytime.

D'oh!

Ryan Mitchell - Tomball HS, Magnolia, TX. 6'-4", 210 lbs.

Ranked #10 in 2005 class

(all according to Prospects Plus)

Sounds like a player to me.

Gotcha BigDawg - when he was 13 he was in the 8th grade! You'll have to come up with a 7th grader to compete with my juniors and seniors. I take back my "stand corrected."

D'oh!

Not quite P-doggie, I believe the 8th grader serves the point well and besides, he was a seventh grader the year before that!


A ball player's got to be kept hungry to become a big leaguer. That's why no boy from a rich family ever made the big leagues.
Joe Dimaggio (b. 1914), U.S. baseball player. Quoted in: New York Times (30 April 1961).

OK, he's an exceptional player. Still not sure what this has to do with original question. So a handful of 8th graders can make their local varsity team each year somewhere in the country. So what?!

A coach will still run his program how he wants too. I would argue that even if physically able, maturity-wise, its not a good idea. High school juniors and seniors are known to try a few adult things that I wouldn't want my 8th grader enticed to do. Further, if I were a high school coach I'd think long and hard before putting a freshman on the varsity for a wealth of reasons.

In the end, none of that will matter anyways.

Justbball,
It has everything to do with the original question.

quote:

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Should a coach put aside winning and playing the best on varsity in order to help personal fulfillment of some of the weaker junior/seniors who should be playing JV?

---

1.) If you had Ryan Mitchell on the bench, you are saying that you would play a weaker junior/senior for a wealth of reasons? My belief as a coach was that if you played the best athletes (best attitude, leaders..etc) then you would be doing the right thing.

A ball player's got to be kept hungry to become a big leaguer. That's why no boy from a rich family ever made the big leagues.
Joe Dimaggio (b. 1914), U.S. baseball player. Quoted in: New York Times (30 April 1961).

Without knowing Ryan, but assuming he was a normal 8th grader (maturity-wise) at that time, YES, I would have had a weaker sophomore/junior/senior on my roster. Answer would be the same if I were his parent. Easy answer, not even a close call.

Justbball makes a good point. You always play to win, but winning isn't everything. You don't overuse a pitcher's arm in order to win at possible cost to the player. If an outstanding player has a bad attitude, you sit him and play someone else. If you have a player with a great ethic you find a way to get him in games. So, no, you don't automatically just play "the best 9". And age and maturity are an issue. You want to develop your players in more ways than just mechanical skills. So, I can see some wisdom in not playing an 8th grader - even if he's 6'3" and throws in the high 80's.

D'oh!

Here are my answers (for whatever it's worth) to your 3 questions:

1. At the varsity level, coaches are expected to win. When a player reaches the varsity level, he should be able to compete successfully at that level. If he can't, he must either accept a smaller role on the team or run track! I know that sounds harsh, but eventually players must be weeded out ... that is the nature of the beast. And, personally, I don't like putting juniors or seniors on JV - that is supposed to be a "minor leagues" for your sophomores and/or freshmen.

2. In my coaching philosophy, I have 3 parts:
1- Every kid in my program should be a better MAN when he leaves my program than he was when he came in.
2- Success is possible only if you are willing to do what it takes.
3- Our program should be a family.

*I treat my players like my sons, and I never expect them to do things I myself haven't done or wouldn't do. My players are expected to carry themselves with class on and off the field (no cursing, grade checks weekly, sprinting on and off the field, etc.), and they MUST be a positive representative of their school, family, team, and community.

3. I agree that holding a kid back SIMPLY because of age or "time he has left" is wrong, but sometimes the coach knows more than anyone else in terms of how his "age" factors in. Sometimes, a kid is 15 going on 20 and sometimes he's 15 going on 13. I also like to think that I make these decisions in the best interest of the kid long-term, not in MY best interst short-term.

**I hope this helps. I'm a straight-shooter, so I hope you aren't offended by my comments.
Coach Knight

Coach Knight,
Thank you for your very good response. You are a straight shooter and that is what a parent needs from a coach, that way a coach's intention is well placed and understood. Please clarify for me if you will what you mean from the following:

quote:

---

3. I agree that holding a kid back SIMPLY because of age or "time he has left" is wrong, but sometimes the coach knows more than anyone else in terms of how his "age" factors in. Sometimes, a kid is 15 going on 20 and sometimes he's 15 going on 13. I also like to think that I make these decisions in the best interest of the kid long-term, not in MY best interst short-term.

---

If you had Ryan Mitchell try out for your team as an eight grader (7th - 12 are eligible for varsity) and he was 14 years old but going on 20 as in your description for maturity and his baseball skills are so high that he has already been projected as a top draft pick out of high school by Baseball America that he would only play JV or are you saying he would start varsity?
Regardless of how you answer the above question let me ask you this?
Why would a baseball program try out 7th, 8th and even 9th graders for a varsity program if they really have some unwritten rule that they can really not play varsity. I have seen cases where some juniors and seniors were really an embarrassement to the program but still played. Do you think that maybe some programs just don't put baseball excellence as the number one consideration?

A ball player's got to be kept hungry to become a big leaguer. That's why no boy from a rich family ever made the big leagues.
Joe Dimaggio (b. 1914), U.S. baseball player. Quoted in: New York Times (30 April 1961).

What I meant by that is that some players are both physically and mentally ready for the challenge of playing at the varsity level as a young kid, while others are not.
I am guessing this must be a really small school if 7th graders can play varsity - what size is it? I have never seen a 7th grader who was ready to play varsity in my program, but our high school is 2000 kids!
No coach is doing a kid a favor by rushing him up to the varsity - sometimes having great success and dominating at the lower levels is better for the kid in the long run than struggling mightily and losing confidence with the big boys.

Coach Knight,
I agree with you 100%! Mine says he is trying out for varsity but I will not allow it until he is a freshman. Our school is largest clasification in the state, but because we do not have an 8th grade baseball, s****r and softball teams they are allowed to try out. S****r and softball have played 7th - 8th graders for years on varsity, but never in baseball.

My thoughts are what do you coaches do when put in these situations that I described when you have an exceptional player that can obviously make a huge difference in your season, it is within the rules and guidelines of the program your involved in..etc. Do you play the best or hold the best player back?

Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!

CDTLB-
I play the best I have, regardless of age. If it is an even battle between 2 players (completely even in all aspects from talent to work ethic to program fundraising commitments), I usually give the upper classman 1st dibs in trying to prove he deserves the job.
I always think long-term, despite how badly I want to win immediately, because I wouldn't rush my own son and I won't do it to yours either!
Hope all my rambling helped. Hope your son has a great season! Coach Knight

I have a friend who is a good HS coach. He has won a couple of National Titles and coached some kid named A-Rod (I love to name drop ). He has had a lot of luck with younger players. He won a state title a couple of years ago and had 4 freshman playing.

He does a couple of things that help his success. Firstly he practices JV with Varsity and will move kids up and down depending on performance. It is always competitive. Secondly, every aspect of practice has a purpose and is charted. Lots of station work and running poles. There is always a purpose. Thirdly, he puts 8th and 9th graders in a position to succeed early in the season. It helps them to develop. Too many coaches make their decisions in the beginning of spring and don't take into account the development of younger players as the season progresses. Fourth, nobody earns a spot forever. I have seen a guy start for 2 years at a position and lose it when someone better comes along. If a kid gets better as the year goes along he will take over a spot.

It is a tough system, but he is there every year. Developing players for the future of their potential is always at the top of his agenda.

"I love the HSBBW"

Coach Knight,
What you just described is what I have always classified as "Doing the Right Thing" as far as whom plays. It takes a coach with guts to do this with all the parental pressure of older kids who sit as a result. We need more coaches like you! Thanks!

Bighit15,
Sounds like an excellent coach in my opinion. Similar to Coach Knight above! I really like the way he makes it competitive with the players, it keeps the older boys on their toes and should. They both benefit from this and keeps the older boys improving when they think they have their positions sewn-up so to speak.
Are you able to reveal this coach's name, school and location? Maybe there web site or something. Thanks, great reply!

Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!

His name is Rich Hofman. He was the Baseball America coach of the decade for the 90's. He used to coach at Westminster Cristian in Miami. At one time he had A-Rod and Mankiewitz from the Twins and they won a Nat'l title. he has won 2 Nat'l titles and 12 state championships. He is now at Westminster Academy in fort Lauderdale.(not related)

"I love the HSBBW"

Baseball is a game that is hard to learn! I find it hard to belive that a 14 yr. old would have the "feel" for the game that an upper classman would have.

Our situation here is that the AD/Head coach brought up his own son (freshman) who is not especially gifted. Great kid, but not gifted.

Try being the parent of the kid he replaced! Your perspective might change. By the way the kid who was replaced was brought up as a sophomore, and played behind a guy who is now scholarshiped to a D-1 back east. This kid bid his time, hit DH (good left hand bat) and led or ended up second in BA both years he played behind the senior. In twenty years as head coach, there have only been half a dozen freshmen make varsity. Last year, he brought up 5 and completely bypassed the sophomore class!

You can't manage by exception (and there always are a few)! But somehow the fact that you've put in the effort for four years has to count for something!

If the talent, maturity, team leadership etc. are equal doesn't the coach owe anything to the kid who's shown loyalty to the program for years?

You guys lollygag the ball around the infield, ya lollygag you’re way to first, ya lollygag in an’ outta the dugout. You know what that makes ya? Lollygaggers.
What’s our record, Larry?
We’re eight and sixteen.
Eight and sixteen?! How’d we ever win eight? - Bull Durham

Again the theme because a kid is a senior or upper classmen he plays? Been discussed before. The question is asked does the best kid play? Look at it from the other side. People talk about being fair. Well if a kid is "better" than somebody else is it fair for him not to play? How do you explain to him that even though you are better you will not play because so and so is a senior? it is a slippery slope and no matter how you slice it somebody will not be happy. As a coach if you try to please everybody you are in trouble.

CDTLB-
Thank you for the compliment.

i think you give the benefit of the doubt to the senior, like coach knight said. but if there is a difference in talent, you go with who is better. if everything is equal you may go with the older guy (loyalty thing). however in the past 5 years i have cut a senior who didn't develop, or put in his time to become better. they thought they were owed a spot. wrong. nothing is a definate. you must do you job to keep it.

I'm the mother of a boy, who when he went to baseball tryouts his Freshman year, was told that he would be the starting 2nd baseman for the Varsity team. He hit 425 with 5 Homeruns.
He "replaced" a boy that quit the baseball team and had a stellar season playing tennis.
His team acknowledged his baseball savvy and welcomed him with open arms! Some parents on the team treated him and us very poorly.

Thankfully, his maturity level was high enough and the Varsity Team was not a bad influence on him. He made Honorable Mention All Conference and Honorable Mention All Area. Two honors that ARE reserved for Seniors.

I think that a high school team has the responsiblity to play its best players, no matter what their age is. A players maturity level will show itself in his stats.

What good does it do for a gifted ball player to play at a lower level and hit 800? Players have to be challenged. IMO