Should put my son in a pitching program.

You should thank the heavens for blessing you with a coach that has a gift to predict position placement for a 13 year old. Here I am struggling to make sure my almost 14 year old becomes a well rounded ball player by doing all those silly baseball drills day in and day out.

But seriously, if your boy wants to learn how to throw seeds and making batters look silly, let him. You really do not want to limit his potential by not pursuing all avenues of this fun sport

He’s young enough to do both.  Not sure how much you respect the coach’s feedback, but it could be valuable.  Did you ask him why he thought as he did?  Maybe he has a lot of good knowledge and experience to guide you.  Or, conversely, maybe he wants your son to focus on CF as it will help the team.

I will say, a pitcher should be shutting down for the year now, especially at 13 yo.  10 weeks starting now, will basically give him no rest, as travel ball practice starts in earnest in Dec/Jan. That would be my biggest concern.

Your son is 13. He's in 7th, maybe 8th grade. He doesn't need a throwing program, especially a 10 week, 30 session program. That is a lot, even for a high school aged player. If anything he should be taking a break from throwing. At 13/14 up kids don't have the rubber arms they had at 9/10/11 where they can throw everyday (games, recess, stick ball, etc), you don't want him to hurt his arm. Really no benefit to playing baseball right now (other than fun), but arms need rest too. 

As far as him projecting. He doesn't project as anything yet that is nonsense. If he wants to pitch, let him until he is not good enough to do so. 

If you can get your money back I would. Or maybe push it off until Jan/Feb and have him use it to gear up for the season. I would nix the throwing program and find a good pitching coach for lessons around 2 months out from opening day. 

Provide more information on the program you put him in.  What is the typical schedule for each of the three days of the week?  What is the goal?  Is it at a facility as part of a travel organization, just training facility, P coach on the side or ???  What week is he in?  If he has already started, what does your son think of it?

cabbagedad posted:

Provide more information on the program you put him in.  What is the typical schedule for each of the three days of the week?  What is the goal?  Is it at a facility as part of a travel organization, just training facility, P coach on the side or ???  What week is he in?  If he has already started, what does your son think of it?

It's an Arm Care Lab. 

• Advanced Delivery Analysis

• Rapsodo Testing and Results Analysis

• Arm Strength & Arm Speed Development

• Functional Body Movement

• Strength, Stability, & Mobility Training

  The instructor is the Mariners single A pitching coach. It's at a training facility.  He hasn't started yet. 

CTbballDad posted:

He’s young enough to do both.  Not sure how much you respect the coach’s feedback, but it could be valuable.  Did you ask him why he thought as he did?  Maybe he has a lot of good knowledge and experience to guide you.  Or, conversely, maybe he wants your son to focus on CF as it will help the team.

I will say, a pitcher should be shutting down for the year now, especially at 13 yo.  10 weeks starting now, will basically give him no rest, as travel ball practice starts in earnest in Dec/Jan. That would be my biggest concern.

He played AAA ball so he knows his baseball. But the ball club is his business.  If I put my kid in the program (at a different facility) that's two months of fees he won't get. Last year he was his star pitcher and now all of a sudden "we just pitch him to help us out."He said we shouldn't worry about pitching. He said since he is so athletic and fast he is more than likely going to be a CF/outfielder. He's a lefty and doesn't have the height for first base.

OK, cool.  Sounds like a good program, should alleviate the previously mentioned concerns about arm abuse and, in fact, be a good foundation for proper mechanics, care, strength and stability going forward for his arm (and body), which is important for every player.  Also, I suspect if you are doing this for him, you are likely one that will also make sure he has good direction/instruction on the hitting side in the coming years as well.  

So, the coach may be right as to where he projects (I don't know), but there is nothing wrong with having him in this type of program.  So, come on down off that ledge.

The only thing that raises a flag for me is that you were reactionary based on a few bad outings.  Bad outings in baseball is as sure as darkness coming with night time.  Keep the big picture in mind.  And, most importantly, make sure that your son is playing and participating because he loves to play.  Be careful not to push lessons, instruction, extra participation, programs, etc.  It should always be something he wants to do.

Oh, one last thing... this is all said assuming you are keeping things in perspective with regards to spending within a realistic family budget.

cabbagedad posted:

OK, cool.  Sounds like a good program, should alleviate the previously mentioned concerns about arm abuse and, in fact, be a good foundation for proper mechanics, care, strength and stability going forward for his arm (and body), which is important for every player.  Also, I suspect if you are doing this for him, you are likely one that will also make sure he has good direction/instruction on the hitting side in the coming years as well.  

So, the coach may be right as to where he projects (I don't know), but there is nothing wrong with having him in this type of program.  So, come on down off that ledge.

The only thing that raises a flag for me is that you were reactionary based on a few bad outings.  Bad outings in baseball is as sure as darkness coming with night time.  Keep the big picture in mind.  And, most importantly, make sure that your son is playing and participating because he loves to play.  Be careful not to push lessons, instruction, extra participation, programs, etc.  It should always be something he wants to do.

Oh, one last thing... this is all said assuming you are keeping things in perspective with regards to spending within a realistic family budget.

 

It was very uncharacteristic of him and it happened two tournaments in a row.  I may be overreacting. He hadn't been practicing pitching on the big field. He definitely wants to do the program.  He is so hard on himself.  He was totally defeated after that last outing.  That was a big reason for wanting to do this program. I hate to see him like that. I think it's reasonably priced compared to what everyone else offers. 

At what level do position players that also pitch stop pitchingand just play their position. 

I’ll second guess placing a 13yo in a ten week pitching program at a time of year when he should be shutting it down. The instructor knows better. But he likes your money. It’s amusing it’s called an arm care facility. They have your son throwing when he should be resting his arm.

As for his perspective he can’t tell if a kid is a position player or pitcher at thirteen. It won’t matter how fast he is if he can’t hit a curve in high school.

I had a coach who i was on the staff with at the time in 10U tell me my son was a CF and not a pitcher. I was so frustrated. I wanted him to pitch. The coach's twin boys were #1 and #2 in the pitching rotation. Fast forward to now and my thoughts are to thank that guy for saving my son's arm inadvertently. At the time it was his thoughts about his defense and his kids. My son was actually a great CF with a hose throwing out kids who tagged at third. At 13 i agree it is still too early to predict and shutting kids down this time of year is about the only time to do it. Maybe try a shorter long toss program, being sure to listen to his arm. I was there at one time so i'll save the snarky comments. Good luck.

Jayden2005 posted:

At what level do position players that also pitch stop pitchingand just play their position. 

A few things:

1. My son didn't throw anything overhand from october-february while 15u and below. Result was his counterparts pretty much all got hurt with growth plate issues, arm fatigue, little league elbow, stress fractures...and on and on. He has not.  The worst time for arm injuries is 12u-14u, they are just very fragile then, shutdown is vital for health.

2. Arm programs absolutely have their place, but I'd wait until 10th grade.

3. The game tells the kid when they are a PO or a two way player, or a position player.  My son was that kid who played every position.  Wherever they pulled the pitcher from he could play there.  He also played a lot of 1B and OF.  He has decent speed, decent bat....but he started pitching at age 12, and there was something special there..  Here we are as a junior in high school, his last summer, and he wants to play outfield and not just pitch.  He's going to be a pitcher in college, he has accepted this, but for his last year of travel ball, he is having to drop down a level so he can play outfield part time.  So, when does the divide happen between being a PO and a position player, I'd say it happens when you let it happen, and what you are willing to do to remain not just one or the other.

4. As they grow they have to relearn hitting and pitching weekly! I am not joking.  A poor outing now means nothing.  How well would you do either if your one arm or leg was now an inch longer than the other one?

5. Be wary of coaches who know it all, they don't, regardless of their "qualifications".  Puberty is a literal game changer. Do not allow your child to be pigeon holed into any one position.  That would be a mistake. For all you know the only way for him to play HS ball is to be a third basemen, do you really want him to tell the high school coach he only plays outfield?

How many innings did your son throw so far this year? (I encourage all parents to write down their son's innings and pitches as soon as they are old enough to get on the mound.  Letting coaches know you are concerned on how much and when they pitch worked well for me.)

My opinion is it is no coincidence a minor league pitching coaches arm care program runs during his off season.  I would wait until Jan/Feb/Mar 2019 depending on when baseball starts for your son.

Your son sounds similar to a kid who was on my 2017's travel ball team from when he was about 12-15.  The kid could fly and was a great CF and a solid hitter but not much pop.  He pitched really well when needed in the weekend tourneys but did not dominate.

He got to HS in one of the top programs in SoCal with a highly successful coach who converted him to a full time pitcher despite his speed and OF skills.  From what I saw, I thought switching him to a PO was a mistake since it was wasting his speed.  What did I know? The kid now is a pitcher with a scholarship at a D1 program.

Like others said, keep all options open--you cannot know what his future is at 13.  As he gets into HS, I would use his throwing velocity more as a gauge than how well he does when pitching.  Coaches/scouts will get interested in him if his velocity is at or above most kids are throwing in his class.  If the velocity is not there, he has the OF option. 

My son caught in HS but it was his arm and velocity that coaches liked at the showcases, and now he is a pitcher in college.  He never pitched much in HS so his arm has a lot less miles on it than if he pitched a lot previously.  There is definitely a benefit to pitching training, but be sure not to overdue it.

Good luck on the adventure--it's just beginning for you and your son!

Regarding shutting down, here's a thread for you:

https://community.hsbaseballwe...hutting-down-the-arm

As I posted there, I think Kyle Boddy has an interesting take: 

www.drivelinebaseball.com/2012...aining-is-the-devil/

"Here is how I approach training youth pitchers (13+ years old):

1. Very little – if any – pitching off a mound during the winter months. Completely avoiding pitching off a mound for 4+ months is strongly preferred.
2. Pitchers should be on a regimented and structured throwing program year-round, including winter training. Pitchers should prioritize deceleration training in the off-season.
3. If pitchers want to take time off from throwing, it should be for psychological reasons, not for any perceived physical benefit. Time off should not exceed four weeks.
4. The intelligent use of radar guns to track progress and to diagnose mechanical flaws with weighted baseballs is encouraged.

*                 *            *           *

However, the idea that you will get better at throwing a baseball by not throwing a baseball is insane."

CaCO3Girl posted:

Jayden2005 posted:

At what level do position players that also pitch stop pitchingand just play their position. 

A few things:

1. My son didn't throw anything overhand from october-february while 15u and below. Result was his counterparts pretty much all got hurt with growth plate issues, arm fatigue, little league elbow, stress fractures...and on and on. He has not.  The worst time for arm injuries is 12u-14u, they are just very fragile then, shutdown is vital for health.

2. Arm programs absolutely have their place, but I'd wait until 10th grade.

3. The game tells the kid when they are a PO or a two way player, or a position player.  My son was that kid who played every position.  Wherever they pulled the pitcher from he could play there.  He also played a lot of 1B and OF.  He has decent speed, decent bat....but he started pitching at age 12, and there was something special there..  Here we are as a junior in high school, his last summer, and he wants to play outfield and not just pitch.  He's going to be a pitcher in college, he has accepted this, but for his last year of travel ball, he is having to drop down a level so he can play outfield part time.  So, when does the divide happen between being a PO and a position player, I'd say it happens when you let it happen, and what you are willing to do to remain not just one or the other.

4. As they grow they have to relearn hitting and pitching weekly! I am not joking.  A poor outing now means nothing.  How well would you do either if your one arm or leg was now an inch longer than the other one?

5. Be wary of coaches who know it all, they don't, regardless of their "qualifications".  Puberty is a literal game changer. Do not allow your child to be pigeon holed into any one position.  That would be a mistake. For all you know the only way for him to play HS ball is to be a third basemen, do you really want him to tell the high school coach he only plays outfield?

I would second a couple of things that Cacogirl said here, namely the game tells you when and also not to get pigeon-holed into one spot.

I also MARVEL at the lack of vision some families/players have when it comes to converting to PO. Look at the rosters for any college team, and 1/2 the roster is pitchers, and maybe 1-2 guys listed as 2-way players. If I had a kid that was being converted to a PO in high school I would embrace that and work like a lunatic to get his measurable where he could play at the next level, be it JUCO or D1. Your chances of playing at the next level are exponentially better as a pitcher. I get it, parents want to see their kid play every game, but realistically at the college level only 8 guys on a team do that. The others are in a pitching rotation/relief pitchers or play due to situational factors (match ups), pinch hitting/running, etc. More scholarship dollars are spent on positions up the middle (C, P, MIF, CF) than any other position on the whole.

Regarding being a position player and being pigeon-holed, my son is a perfect example. Was a darn good catcher up until 13 years old, then his HS feeder team converted him to MIF. He plays 2B, SS and 3B now and is pretty good at all of them. What he doesn't play is catcher. I never saw that coming, always expected him to be a catcher. Grateful to those who saw him as a MIF guy, because that is what he will play at the next level.

GaryMe posted:

...

I also MARVEL at the lack of vision some families/players have when it comes to converting to PO. Look at the rosters for any college team, and 1/2 the roster is pitchers, and maybe 1-2 guys listed as 2-way players. If I had a kid that was being converted to a PO in high school I would embrace that and work like a lunatic to get his measurable where he could play at the next level, be it JUCO or D1. Your chances of playing at the next level are exponentially better as a pitcher. ...

Well, what you say is all true.  But I would hope that HS player being converted is a senior or very specific junior.  How may 14-16 y.o. kids want to play baseball and JUST be a pitcher?  Nor should they want to.  Heck, they've only been on the big diamond for a few years and are really just learning so many aspects of the game.  I think that for the vast majority, even if evident that their next level opportunity will be as a P, they should play the whole game in HS if the situation allows, both to enjoy it and learn it.  As secondary benefit, that will only help them should they continue playing beyond HS.  There is certainly nothing wrong, however, with tilting the extra instruction and training on the P side if indicators are pointing in that direction.

I do get what you are saying in the sense that so many parents resist that direction when presented.  But the vast majority of parents are just gaining an understanding of the reality of the funnel as it is happening and their sons have always been standouts as position players up to this point.  And, of course, there is the natural phenomena of rose colored glasses when it comes to our own offspring.  So, it's tough.  But predictable and understandable.

Tying this back to one of Jayden's questions... ("At what level do position players that also pitch stop pitching and just play their position.")...

For a position player who can also pitch, this almost always becomes a product of team needs.  It can happen at any level and it can go away and come back.  Within our HS program, we typically have occasion where something happens to the expected mound contributor(s) and then others who have had previous pitching experience are given a look to fill the void.

Good point about pitchers and roster sizes in college.

Just because you you "convert" to a PO and get a scholarship doesn't mean you will play at the next level. You will get chances to show you can play and keep your role but seniority, injuries, mental toughness, work ethic, grades and several other factors will dictate whether or not you play a vital role on your team. You're going from the bottom of the triangle towards the tip and lots of kids competing for your spot in college are dudes.  Sometimes it just comes down to getting an opportunity and seizing it and other times it's one bad outing and how you react and if someone else bests your effort.

1) Every pitcher has a bad outing or two. Even in the pros. Streaks and slumps. Your son might even be tired or burned out. Some times a break is all they need.

2) A good pitching coach should be able to quickly identify and recommend a few adjustment to your sons mechanics that should help him "fix" his delivery, location, etc. My son would see his pitching coach on a week to week basis. We did not pay for a "pitching program". My son sometimes would go to see his coach when he felt like he needed an adjustment.