Should put my son in a pitching program.

2019Dad posted:

Regarding shutting down, here's a thread for you:

https://community.hsbaseballwe...hutting-down-the-arm

As I posted there, I think Kyle Boddy has an interesting take: 

www.drivelinebaseball.com/2012...aining-is-the-devil/

"Here is how I approach training youth pitchers (13+ years old):

1. Very little – if any – pitching off a mound during the winter months. Completely avoiding pitching off a mound for 4+ months is strongly preferred.
2. Pitchers should be on a regimented and structured throwing program year-round, including winter training. Pitchers should prioritize deceleration training in the off-season.
3. If pitchers want to take time off from throwing, it should be for psychological reasons, not for any perceived physical benefit. Time off should not exceed four weeks.
4. The intelligent use of radar guns to track progress and to diagnose mechanical flaws with weighted baseballs is encouraged.

*                 *            *           *

However, the idea that you will get better at throwing a baseball by not throwing a baseball is insane."

I think for sophomores and up there is something to throwing year round.

I think for freshman and below, if you throw year round with bodies that are developing every second, you are begging for an injury.

I don’t want to come across bashing Mr Boddy, as he runs a successful business and is a valuable member here, but for the sake of parents who are unsure, you need to keep in mind that these businesses are predicated on players throwing in the off-season.  If players shut down, there’s less money pumped into these programs.  Something to keep in mind when reading opinion pieces and the source (applies to baseball, stock investing, politics, etc.)

I spoke to every coach who recruited my son on this topic and they all advised we shut down.  My son eclipsed 100 innings by August and they all said not to pick up a baseball until January.

I’ve said before that I don’t think anyone really has the answer(s) about arm health for pitchers.  There seems to be a large component that is genetic (see, e.g., Nolan Ryan’s longevity), and pitchers sometimes get injured—or not—following just about every known training regimen. 

I have no medical training and am not a pitching coach. I have read everything I can and talked with a lot of folks who know more than I ever will about orthopedics and/or pitching. Having said that, for my son I have tried to keep two principles in mind: 1) When in doubt, take a conservative approach—that is, less throwing, fewer innings. And 2) the best source I know for advice on arm health that is medically knowledgeable and based on actual data are Drs. James Andrews and Glenn Fleisig. Their recommendation (from the PitchSmart guidelines) for players HS age up to 22 years old is: “Take at least 4 months off from competitive pitching every year, including at least 2-3 continuous months off from all overhead throwing.” IMO given the state of knowledge in 2018, that advice is the gold standard  

CTbballDad posted:

I don’t want to come across bashing Mr Boddy, as he runs a successful business and is a valuable member here, but for the sake of parents who are unsure, you need to keep in mind that these businesses are predicated on players throwing in the off-season.  If players shut down, there’s less money pumped into these programs.  Something to keep in mind when reading opinion pieces and the source (applies to baseball, stock investing, politics, etc.)

I spoke to every coach who recruited my son on this topic and they all advised we shut down.  My son eclipsed 100 innings by August and they all said not to pick up a baseball until January.

CT, that is an interesting point to a topic that still has expert opinions conflicting across the spectrum.  I sure don't have the answers.  But I did want to point out the irony in the recruiting college coaches advising to shut down.  The college is going to get the kid in August, expecting him to show up with an arm that is in shape and ready to go (requiring subsequent throwing program/routine).  They will throw a TON through fall, winter and spring and then be shipped off by the same college coach to play summer ball somewhere.  Rinse, wash and repeat for four years if you survive.  Hmmm...  I guess, to your point, each voice has some element of selfish objective.

cabbagedad posted:

CTbballDad posted:

I don’t want to come across bashing Mr Boddy, as he runs a successful business and is a valuable member here, but for the sake of parents who are unsure, you need to keep in mind that these businesses are predicated on players throwing in the off-season.  If players shut down, there’s less money pumped into these programs.  Something to keep in mind when reading opinion pieces and the source (applies to baseball, stock investing, politics, etc.)

I spoke to every coach who recruited my son on this topic and they all advised we shut down.  My son eclipsed 100 innings by August and they all said not to pick up a baseball until January.

CT, that is an interesting point to a topic that still has expert opinions conflicting across the spectrum.  I sure don't have the answers.  But I did want to point out the irony in the recruiting college coaches advising to shut down.  The college is going to get the kid in August, expecting him to show up with an arm that is in shape and ready to go (requiring subsequent throwing program/routine).  They will throw a TON through fall, winter and spring and then be shipped off by the same college coach to play summer ball somewhere.  Rinse, wash and repeat for four years if you survive.  Hmmm...  I guess, to your point, each voice has some element of selfish objective.

Yes, I was shocked when provided the detail of how much they throw in the fall/winter!  I guess that’s why they try to limit innings during the summer?

I plan to have my son reach out to the coach next year before confirming our summer plans.  My son threw over 60 innings as a high school junior and expect the same, if not more this year.

Oops, shouldn’t have replied to you and kept the chain alive, according to the other thread.  My bad...

cabbagedad posted:

CTbballDad posted:

I don’t want to come across bashing Mr Boddy, as he runs a successful business and is a valuable member here, but for the sake of parents who are unsure, you need to keep in mind that these businesses are predicated on players throwing in the off-season.  If players shut down, there’s less money pumped into these programs.  Something to keep in mind when reading opinion pieces and the source (applies to baseball, stock investing, politics, etc.)

I spoke to every coach who recruited my son on this topic and they all advised we shut down.  My son eclipsed 100 innings by August and they all said not to pick up a baseball until January.

CT, that is an interesting point to a topic that still has expert opinions conflicting across the spectrum.  I sure don't have the answers.  But I did want to point out the irony in the recruiting college coaches advising to shut down.  The college is going to get the kid in August, expecting him to show up with an arm that is in shape and ready to go (requiring subsequent throwing program/routine).  They will throw a TON through fall, winter and spring and then be shipped off by the same college coach to play summer ball somewhere.  Rinse, wash and repeat for four years if you survive.  Hmmm...  I guess, to your point, each voice has some element of selfish objective.

Uh oh, I embedded a couple of quotes, so nobody will probably read this. I know I have read on several threads here about guys whose sons are pitchers that their college coaches are instructing their summer collegiate teams to limit innings to a certain count. I know a D1 commit who threw 90 innings in the spring and his D1 coach shut him down until he hit the campus in August. No summer ball. It's all situational, depends on the history of the player (have they had arm/shoulder/elbow injuries in the past), whether they are still physically not mature (many aren't) etc. The college has the right, I think, to direct the use of the player in the off-season because they are the most invested in them.

Also, I saw an interesting tweet this morning talking about the use of pitching staffs during the season. Only about 7-8 pitchers will see meaningful innings, so the rest of the guys are going to need to get the work during summer ball.

That is correct, innings can be minimized in summer ball and some do not go. Although it is usually to get the kid exposure for the next level and improve aspects of his game, so most do go. As mentioned several factors typically contribute to the designation. Take care of those arms, afterall ....thats all you got as a pitcher.

Is it fair to assume some college coaches are more conscientious about / aware of arm care than others (at least when it comes to inning and pitch counts)?  Any suggestions on how to get info about coaches' tendencies in that regard?  It is something I have wondered about as my son starts having more contacts with coaches.

CTbballDad posted:

Oops, shouldn’t have replied to you and kept the chain alive, according to the other thread.  My bad...

GaryMe posted:

cabbagedad posted:

CTbballDad posted:

I don’t want to come across bashing Mr Boddy, as he runs a successful business and is a valuable member here, but for the sake of parents who are unsure, you need to keep in mind that these businesses are predicated on players throwing in the off-season.  If players shut down, there’s less money pumped into these programs.  Something to keep in mind when reading opinion pieces and the source (applies to baseball, stock investing, politics, etc.)

I spoke to every coach who recruited my son on this topic and they all advised we shut down.  My son eclipsed 100 innings by August and they all said not to pick up a baseball until January.

CT, that is an interesting point to a topic that still has expert opinions conflicting across the spectrum.  I sure don't have the answers.  But I did want to point out the irony in the recruiting college coaches advising to shut down.  The college is going to get the kid in August, expecting him to show up with an arm that is in shape and ready to go (requiring subsequent throwing program/routine).  They will throw a TON through fall, winter and spring and then be shipped off by the same college coach to play summer ball somewhere.  Rinse, wash and repeat for four years if you survive.  Hmmm...  I guess, to your point, each voice has some element of selfish objective.

Uh oh, I embedded a couple of quotes, so nobody will probably read this. I know I have read on several threads here about guys whose sons are pitchers that their college coaches are instructing their summer collegiate teams to limit innings to a certain count. I know a D1 commit who threw 90 innings in the spring and his D1 coach shut him down until he hit the campus in August. No summer ball. It's all situational, depends on the history of the player (have they had arm/shoulder/elbow injuries in the past), whether they are still physically not mature (many aren't) etc. The college has the right, I think, to direct the use of the player in the off-season because they are the most invested in them.

Also, I saw an interesting tweet this morning talking about the use of pitching staffs during the season. Only about 7-8 pitchers will see meaningful innings, so the rest of the guys are going to need to get the work during summer ball.

Now for sure no one will read this!

-"So said the quote fairy"

GaryMe posted:

cabbagedad posted:

CTbballDad posted:

I don’t want to come across bashing Mr Boddy, as he runs a successful business and is a valuable member here, but for the sake of parents who are unsure, you need to keep in mind that these businesses are predicated on players throwing in the off-season.  If players shut down, there’s less money pumped into these programs.  Something to keep in mind when reading opinion pieces and the source (applies to baseball, stock investing, politics, etc.)

I spoke to every coach who recruited my son on this topic and they all advised we shut down.  My son eclipsed 100 innings by August and they all said not to pick up a baseball until January.

CT, that is an interesting point to a topic that still has expert opinions conflicting across the spectrum.  I sure don't have the answers.  But I did want to point out the irony in the recruiting college coaches advising to shut down.  The college is going to get the kid in August, expecting him to show up with an arm that is in shape and ready to go (requiring subsequent throwing program/routine).  They will throw a TON through fall, winter and spring and then be shipped off by the same college coach to play summer ball somewhere.  Rinse, wash and repeat for four years if you survive.  Hmmm...  I guess, to your point, each voice has some element of selfish objective.

Uh oh, I embedded a couple of quotes, so nobody will probably read this. I know I have read on several threads here about guys whose sons are pitchers that their college coaches are instructing their summer collegiate teams to limit innings to a certain count. I know a D1 commit who threw 90 innings in the spring and his D1 coach shut him down until he hit the campus in August. No summer ball. It's all situational, depends on the history of the player (have they had arm/shoulder/elbow injuries in the past), whether they are still physically not mature (many aren't) etc. The college has the right, I think, to direct the use of the player in the off-season because they are the most invested in them.

Also, I saw an interesting tweet this morning talking about the use of pitching staffs during the season. Only about 7-8 pitchers will see meaningful innings, so the rest of the guys are going to need to get the work during summer ball.

Yes, absolutely true Gary, but even if they don't get many spring game innings, they are throwing pens on a very regular basis (as well as regular intersquad live innings in the fall) with no shut down of any significance.  The only time they typically get shut down for summer is if they do have a high game inning tally during the spring.  Even at that, I know many spring rotation guys who still get assigned to summer teams, just on limited innings/appearances.  So, again, no true shutdown. 

Some do state summer cutoff dates to allow for a limited rest period.  And some will restrict fall participation in those same instances.  But still...

Oops, I did it too... sorry bandwidth.

Chico Escuela posted:

Is it fair to assume some college coaches are more conscientious about / aware of arm care than others (at least when it comes to inning and pitch counts)?  Any suggestions on how to get info about coaches' tendencies in that regard?  It is something I have wondered about as my son starts having more contacts with coaches.

If I have a P, my suggestion is this...

Not worth doing too much digging until you reach the point where you have some level of mutual interest.  At that point, contact P's who were recently in the program and ask questions about the level of P coaching, workout regimens and certainly how P's are used (and/or overused).  That last question can be framed in a more politically correct way like "what challenges did you face with keeping your arm fresh in this particular program?".  Of course, I would also look at recent years stats, viewing each P with a fair amount of IP, as it relates to days rest between appearances, etc.

Shoveit4Ks posted:

... innings can be minimized in summer ball and some do not go. Although it is usually to get the kid exposure for the next level and improve aspects of his game, so most do go...

I want to learn more about this, as my pitcher received his summer assignment and it seems like an incredible opportunity. I should probably start a new thread.