Should the Varsity Coach Care about Wins at Lower Levels?

Here's my opinion.  I think it applies to the lower levels of HS ball as well as pre-HS.  When you are on the field, you always try to win.  However, you don't necessarily always put the best guys in the best positions at those levels.  Example at the HS level.  You have a totally stud SS that is a sophomore.  He's starting on Varsity.  You have another stud sophomore that has always played SS, but he's a notch below the varsity kid.  He'll obviously never play varsity SS.  What do you do with him?  Play him on JV and teach him a new position.  You don't play him at SS on JV even if he is obviously the best SS available.  You play him at 3rd or left field or whatever position you have slotted for him on varsity.  This gives you a situation where JV isn't optimally configured to win, but it is what is best for future years on varsity.  

Now, when you are on the field, playing the game, you are playing to win, but you are not necessarily playing the best players in the best positions because there are higher goals for the following years.  Hope that makes sense.

Same with pre-HS.  The goal of a coach should be to develop and coach ALL his players.  Especially at the younger ages.  Sometimes that will mean playing lower caliber players over better ones to make sure they all get reps.  While those 9 are on the field, the goal is to win.  But, you may sacrifice a sure win to make ALL your players better in the long run.

No coach ever goes out wanting to lose and you never try to purposely lose.  However, for the betterment of the program, you don't always put together a team or lineup that gives you the best chance of winning in every game.

JMHO

What I have seen is the lower levels are there to groom and prepare players as future varsity players. They put development ahead of wins especially pitchers. I understand what you are saying but the reality of it is most varsity HC's don't really put a lot of emphasis on winning games at the lower levers.  

To win, a team generally plays it's best players.

The best players in ninth and tenth grade may - or may not be - be the best players when that group hits 11th and 12th grade; the 5' 4" pitcher (throwing 65) may well be a 6" footer (throwing 85) by 11th grade; the 6" ninth grader who lights up the gun at 75 (a very good ninth grade velo) may be the 6" senior lighting up the gun at 75.

To win, you would tend to stick with fewer pitchers (those that can get guys out). To develop, you need to spread the work load.

So long as the coach lays out his philosophy there is no right or wrong; no one size fits all. Like so much in baseball, "if it works, it works."

As part of the V coaching staff, here's how typical conversations go with JV coach after games (we play at opposite sites so this usually occurs next day or so)...  Coach will start with whether we won or lost and what turning point/primary direction of the game was.  I will typically go into the following line of questioning...

What pitchers threw strikes?

Who hit the ball hard?

Is everyone getting their innings?

Who is showing you something?

Who should we consider bringing up if we need x ?

Have you looked at so-and-so at postion x?

The JV coaches are usually more than willing to share any negative behavior, attendance or performance issues.  Yes, we would certainly like to see the team win more than lose and will congratulate on wins or competitive games.  But JV is supposed to be developmental.  It is important to develop skills, program depth, and versatility.  It is important to identify all possible areas players will be able to contribute going forward.  Lots of pitchers need game innings.  So, if run properly, there will be many innings played without the best nine on the diamond and with the #4,5,6 and 7 pitchers throwing.  Many other programs don't see it that way and roll out their best almost always.  So, sometimes expectations for winning must be tempered for the best of the overall program.

PS - oops, sorry guys, said much the same as others - just a slower at typing.

This is a timely post as our boys just had their inter-squad scrimmage last weekend, followed by a parent meeting. One of the handouts parents received was the program's level philosophy. It basically says:

Varsity goals:

Win - no guaranteed playing time

Compete for titles

Prepare players for the next level

In lopsided games, "program" guys will get more playing time

JV goals:

Prepare players for varsity

Majority of playing time to guys preparing to play varsity now, everyone will play some

Refine skills and technique

Freshman goals:

Have fun, keep them in the program

Teach the basic fundamentals

Not equal playing time, better players get majority

Everyone will play some innings each week.

Clearly, our program is about development and the emphasis to win is only at the V level. 

With our V baseball team. this is only the last 4-5 yrs.Watching them its like they "don't know how to win"Same coaches. Whos that on?Up to 8th grade all the teams were considered successful.some teams more than others.Our jr. and frshman both went to state as 8th graders.In the long term it will help my guy out tremendously.As a fan of Hs sports(especially my own)I am more than ready for some short term stuff.4 yrs. or so back one of our best kids (another sport) was told the reason he spent so much time on sidelines was"we know what you can do we need to see what others can do" It was hard for me to believe the statement.My own kid was told the same 2 yrs. ago.Both were on freshman teams pulling much less than 50% playing time.There are coaches that are good at developing kids.There are coaches that are really good at "game management"(getting/putting kids in best position to earn a win) I don't think there are a ton of guys that are good at both.Its the coaches that aren't interested in the credit that do best no?In the smaller schools it can be a real killer to a program when theres problems in a program that has nothing to do with the players or parents.The coaches have problems.I think the average parent would be fine with funks V rules if you weren't looking like it will be your 5 .500 yr. in a row.

Always pay attention to what the coach actually does, not what he says.

I am in a hurry and so, didn't read all of the responses.  In a lot of cases, the phrase is taken out of context. I didn't care about winning at the lower level per my assistant coaches keeping their jobs.  I cared that they coached my system and did their best to win while working on fundamentals.  I needed for certain players that I identified to play at positions other than what they might have played in the summer.  That was because I saw the potential log jam at key positions down the road.  Playing those players in positions that they were not used to might lead to a couple of more losses.  I might need for a player to be developed into a pitcher and so, that certainly could lead to more losses.  Golfman, your point is well taken in that a school program needs to be known for winning at all levels.  IMO, if my assistant coaches did what I asked, they were going to win a lot more than they lost.  I can't speak for other coaches. 

The priority for JV and freshman teams is to develop players to ultimately become varsity players. Playing to win at these levels is important relative to who is on the field. It's important certain players get time at specific positions and pitchers get their mound time. 

I always wanted my JV team to win. But the bottom line is development. Moving guys around. Getting multiple guys innings and at bats. I won the conference championship 13 times in a 16 year span. Finished second the other 3 years. Not once did we win a JV championship. My best players always played up. My JV always focused on making sure everyone got playing time, innings on the mound, at bats and instruction during games. Yes I wanted to win and I know they want to. But there are bigger fish to fry. And it worked pretty well for my players.

I understand and agree with the development aspect.  But how long to you let a kid "develop" if it is just not working.  Say you got a kid you want at SS.  But it turns out he is a walking error - just can't make a play consistently.  Or a kid batting 3rd, who constantly strikes out.  How long before you say maybe not now and go to someone else? 

What I am seeing at my kid's school is very low expectations and programs which aren't very good (thankfully baseball excluded).  I see coaches pounding square pegs into round holes.  Coaches stubbornly focusing on outdated concepts and views of the game.  I see participation rates very low.  When I hear a comment like "I don't care about wins," I'm just trying to figure it all out. 

Goldman wish you the best of luck.. Year 2 and I'm still trying to get the hang of it

Not a coach, but here is what I think.  I am speaking from the view of a parent at a large suburban school.  Frosh, Soph and JV need to be about development.  Varsity needs to be about winning state.  That does not mean that winning is not important at the lower levels but there are times where a win could have been possible but the coaches choose to put kids in a situation to develop.  As the funnel narrows between Frosh and V winning becomes more and more important and you start to focus your development on the kids you know are going to be your V starters in the future.  

Actually, the replies on this post have been very helpful.  As I think about them I realize the particular situation wasn't "development" at all.   Actual development is pretty easy to spot.  Unfortunately, the whole "don't care about wins" and "development" is actually a cover.   

Conspiracy theory??  Uh-Oh.

I always saw my new guys like this. Very few were ever looked at as "He's a MIF. He's a Catcher. He's a corner guy."

Why? They are 14 or 15 years old. I know they are going to change so much over the next couple of years. The programs needs change from year to year. How hard are they gonig to work? How much natural growth as athelets are they going to have? There are so many unknowns.

I focus on the things I know are not going to change. You will never be too fast. You will never be too good of a hitter. You will never glove it too well. You will never throw too hard. You will never be too good of an athlete. You will never know the game too well. I want to focus on those things, teach them what I know they need to know, build a fire so to speak and then see where it leads.

Yes there are a few a couple every year where there is no doubt what their future as far as position is going to be. But those are not the norm. So JV is about developing baseball players, work ethic, what it's going to take to be a part of the program, give you a vision for what you can be and be a part of IF you buy in.

You can put the best SS at SS the best CF in CF and you can throw the best couple of arms to death and win JV championships. Or you can develop that SS at CF that CF at 2B and develop depth on the hill so the next year when your All American SS is a Sr that Soph 2B has played 2B instead of CF and that best JV SS can start in CF. I used to have parents say "My son has always played SS he has never played 3B." Well if he doesn't want to sit a couple of more years behing Chris until he is drafted or goes to UNC he better learn how to play another position.

I cringe when I hear someone say "My son is a 2B." And the kid has never stepped on a HS field in a game. And he is 14 or 15 years old. He needs to be a baseball player. The rest can be figured out down the road.

How does a team win games?  How does a player / team learn to win games?  Pretty simple solution - get better at the fundamentals and skills involved with the sport in question and not just baseball.  So how do you do this?  You do it by developing players in practice, games and having different levels of teams to help develop players.  When I hear coaches, players or whoever talk about teaching winning I always ask them what drill do they use which teaches winning because I want to start doing it.  Winning just got easier with this drill.  Thing is this drill doesn't exist.  But drills to help arm strength, work on fielding, pitching and hitting do exist.  So you work on those to get better.  If you're better at fielding, throwing, hitting and pitching than the other team you're probably going to win.  If you're prepared by knowing the game and how to execute things you are better and probably going to win.  No drill exists to teach winning exclusively.  You learn to win by being better at the skills of the game than the other guy.

Another thing that factors into winning is having good luck.  Overall nobody can control how much or how little luck they have.  But it's amazing how much luckier the better skilled and prepared teams are versus the teams who aren't skilled or prepared.  

So should the varsity coach be worried winning at the lower levels?  Honestly, I don't think any coach should worry about winning at any level.  If you take care of the things that you have to mix together that lead to winning then you don't have to worry about winning - it takes care off itself.

I see teams go wrong when they try to use band - aide players.  It may seem like I'm talking about what Coach May does but it's not.  I 100% agree with him in that you have to move kids due to guys growing, maturing, getting stronger and skills getting better.  But how many times have you seen teams put their best player in different positions because they feel that's the only way to win THAT game?  This is not helpful to the development of that player or the team overall.  Yeah sometimes you have to move guys around to provide a band - aide for some situations due to injuries or other factors but overall you put a kid in a position and teach them that position.  If the next year they need to be moved then move them then teach them that position.  But to just move kids to be moving kids doesn't help anyone.

A different thought to add in to the discussion...

How do you feel about moving V players down to JV for games?  I ask because we have a school in our district that regularly will bring 4-5 varsity starters to play in their JV games.

I'm friendly with some parents of kids on that squad, so I asked if the coach had ever said why he does this?  They say he is doing it to "develop" the varsity players, and give them more playing time.

I wanted to ask about those JV kids sitting the bench missing out on "development" - but I figured it's not my problem. Maybe if those were end of the bench guys on varsity who don't get playing time, bringing them down would make sense - but starters?

A consistent varsity starter being moved down to play JV games is ridiculous and doesn't help anyone.  If it's a younger player who is good enough to be on varsity but not good enough to get consistent playing time should be able to play in some JV games to help stay sharp and interested in staying on the team.  Kids want to play and if they are sitting on the bench when they could play at a lower level they will start to lose interest.  

Awesome posts Coach. Right on the money. It's why I always say you win in practice, you win in development, you will win in games. Teaching kids how to win, by all means. When you are stronger, faster, throw harder, field it better, hit it better, know the game better, tougher, you will win. Winning is a product of winning in those areas. Winning in itself is not taught. The things that cause you to win are. Your on fire today Coach.

I guess that sums up my point.  Winning is a product of the culture, process, environment, expectations, etc. (call it what you want).  If have all of the above, the wins should take care of themselves. 

And I suppose that was what I was expecting to hear from our coaches.  But, when I heard "I don't care about wins" it caused a double take because the balance of the message wasn't there.   

The culture. So true. Teams don't win games because they have always won games. They win games because they always do the things that bring about the wins. Its like those HS programs that out of the blue win games. They have a good group come in together and for a couple of years they are good. Not great but good. Never reaching their full potential but much better than normal. Then that group graduates and they go right back to being terrible for years to come. Or that program that has 7 D1 recruits that can't make it out of the first or second round of the playoffs the entire time they are in school. Seen those situations before.

Then there is that program that no matter who is there. No matter who they lose from year to year they are also a good solid team and beat who they should and beat who people think they shouldn't many times. They have JV players that are decent. Those same guys 2 or 3 years later are All Conf guys and people can't understand what happened. I thought they would be down this year.

A winning culture. The process of winning. A winning attitude. Win this swing on this T. Win this approach to this ground ball. Win this second, minute, hour, day. Beat your opponent, your competition every second, minute, hour, day so you can beat him on game day. Yes it is a culture. Teaching young men that what you do today will determine what you can do tomorrow. What you do this week will determine what you can do next week. What you do this month will determine what you can do next month. What you do this year will determine what you can do next year. What you do when no one is watching will determine what you can do when everyone is.

Heck, it's not just at the HS level where players get moved to new positions. Happens in college and the minors all the time. So yes ... I agree: Develop baseball players. 

Who can hit.

Love Coach May's response. I am seeing a different style of coaching at 2018's high school. The team is 5-1 and playing in the championship game of a high level tourney this afternoon, so winning isn't an issue. What's odd about these coaches is that they refuse to move kids around at all. If you went to the OF for the first practice you are an unmovable object from that original position, regardless of team need in other spots. If you were the backup 2B the first week, you are a backup 2B until the end of time (and with scrimmages we are 20+ games in now so it isn't a new thing).

It's weird, they have games where they are sitting some better ballplayers because this kid is an OF or that kid "can only catch", but in travel ball we've seen these same kids move all around the diamond. No one is looking to stir the pot given that the team is winning, but it could be doing even better for the long term development of the player and the program if they allowed kids to move around a bit. This directive is NOT coming from the JV or Varsity coaches, as they moved guys all over the place during the fall. They look at everything being perfect given the wins, but they don't stop to think we are the only team in the area with no frosh on JV or varsity, we stacked our frosh team and are playing against teams with their best 3-4 freshman up at the higher levels. Makes a huge difference. 

Winning vs. Development - 2018's team is winning, but not sure how much development is going on. 

We just go done experiencing the opposite problem.  The team is loosing but the kids remain static.  No changes made.  The same mistake prone kids playing and the team no being competitive and getting blown out.  It's embarrassing.  Meanwhile better players get no chance. 

I'm thinking back to Coach May's point of does it matter what position a player plays coming into high school. Here's the background of my son's junior year team. It was the best of the three (two conference titles and a second).

C - SS until 12. First caught in 7th grade

1B - Lifer at first ... a lefty

2B - SS until high school ... lacked arm for hs

SS - SS lifer

3B - SS until high school ... lacked range for hs

LF - 1B until high school

CF - C/SS until high school

RF - SS/CF until high school

DH - 3B until high school

My son was the SS in middle school. He was called the heir apparent at SS. He was invited to varsity practice when he was in 8th grade. Entering high school the varsity coach told him he needed a catcher. My son worked on catching in the fall. He ended up being the JV SS and varsity SS soph year. Junior year he was told he would play SS or CF depending on which player coming up from JV won a starting position. 

What it all comes down to is (as I told my 13u travel team full of former all star shortstops) there are nine great opportunities on the field. They're all better than the positions on the bench.