Should upperclassmen start on Varsity?

In the best programs, the best play!

No.  Talent wins the position regardless of class.

You put the best 9 on the field.

Best 9 start. Players earn their starting position. The notion of someone should be playing in front of another person simply because they are older is ridiculous. But then again, this is something coaches hear about, in all sports every year, from coast to coast. Another one of those things that parents "just don't get" IMO.

I've always found baseball to be one of the hardest sports to assess the value of a player to his team; there are just so many variables. I think that's one reason so many parents think "my kid's better than the kid playing in front of him". So right from the start, you probably can't assume that the coach has the same opinion as others as far as who is "not as good".

In the close cases, I think the upperclassman should get the opportunity to lose his position. Most HS seasons are pretty short, so it can't be too many games but I think they deserve that. As far as year, I would start an 8th grader if he's the "best" player at his position. I don't see where it hurts the kid any, and it certainly helps the team. JMO

+1!  The upperclassmen should have the first opportunity to win or lose the position.  I would think this would be determined in practice, but sometimes coaches have a short period of time between final cuts and the first game (about two weeks here).  Otherwise, yes, put the best 9 in the lineup.  If a freshman beats out a senior, then so be it.

 

As a sophomore my son beat out a senior for the catcher position.  He simply was far better than the senior. The senior did see some playing time, but usually only when the team had a good lead or they were facing a weak opponent.  To his credit though, the senior was a team player and never complained.  He was honored by the coach at the end of the season with the Sportsmanship Award. 

Best 9 plays.  If u get up put in Sr. As subs occas. Start sr on sr night then sub in accordingly.  I'm assuming parents complaining because sons did not play much as soph/jr because of skill level and they feel as Sr. They "earned right" just because they r sr.  Coach should set tone at beginning of season. Lay done expectations/philosophy and that should keep parent complaints to minimum.

My friend has a parent meeting every year and sets the tone but that still doesn't keep parents from complaining about playing time.  I told him this is the reason why so many more good coaches are opting to coach travel ball instead of high school baseball because in travel ball you can say what you want to really say and high school ball you have to watch what you say because you don't want to lose your actually career teaching.  It is a sticky situation and the best advice I can give my friend is; think about the teaching career and don't mess that up.  Making .50 cents an hour coaching high school baseball isn't worth it as far as losing your teaching position.  It is a tough pill to swallow but my friend had a good response. 

Now a days there are too many parents coddling their kids and making sure everyone gets a trophy.  Not realizing that they are really hampering their growth as a young adult dealing with adversity and trying to find a good approach to getting out it so instead parents complain and the powers to be jump.

 

When he said that to me, I thought about it for a while.  Makes you think.

Who exactly are the best 9? Is it who are determined to be the 9 most talented players based on skill sets or perceived skill sets despite whether they're head cases or not? The 9 who give the most effort? The 9 smartest players on the field who are less apt to make mental mistakes that cost the team games? Ask 15-20 parents of a varsity baseball roster and you'll get 15-20 different lineups and the coach has his.

 

If a head coach tends to give leeway towards his seniors to earn positions then so be it. Just deal with it.

 

As for it taking away fro HS competitiveness, that's just an excuse for justifying who's son should play or who's son should sit. Regardless who play or starts, varsity ball is still about trying to win games. As for travel ball, they're two different animals. Today, most recruiting is done based on the summer teams anyway and the HS season is so short, you don't get to see over the long haul who the best nine really are which in my opinion are the 9 who give your team the best chance to be successful. It could be a different line up for different opponents based on what each team brings to the table. If some coaches give leeway to their seniors, then so be it. Just be that much better than the senior that the coach can't keep him out of the lineup. More often than not, these things come up because the talent level is relatively close between a competing senior and an underclassman that the younger player didn't do enough to beat out the senior. No coach in his right mind is going to sit or relegate a talented soph or frosh on the JV if he can make an impact on varsity.

The "best" is relevant to what the coach thinks "best" means to them and for the team.  It can't be easily categorized. 

Whoever the coach determines it is.  He is the coach and it's "his" team.

The best 9 are the 9 who give your team the best chance to succeed. It may be with positive attitude or physical ability. A coach's dream is for a player to have both. A SR. may have a cannon from outfield but is slow as the day is long. Not to mention he can't hit to save his life. A Soph or Jr., playing that same position may be lightning fast and an average arm but hits cutoffs with regularity. He may be only option for leadoff batter. Who would you want in the lineup?

I no longer coach high school baseball because of this very reason.  We have created a bunch of kids that are used to getting a trophy win or lose.  If a kid doesn't get enough playing time, dad pays more money to be a part of another select team.  I had a parent tell me that she liked select ball because you got to start over every weekend.  That's not trying to win as a team. It is an evaluation period for kids trying to play at the next level.  High school baseball is about winning as a team and most don't understand that.  As for the age, it should have no bearing on who plays or not.  Each coach must win to feed his family.  I am not aware of any coach that would put favoritism of players over feeding his family.  Most parents would prefer coaches to play the best 8 and their kid.  I coached high school baseball for 23 years and I never had a parent conference with any parent who's kid was playing on a regular basis.  Winning didn't matter, just make sure my kid is playing.  The days of the team/role player are over. 

Maybe in Ga travel ball is dominating the HS season, but out here in NoCal its rare to see a travel ball team play during the HS season, and chances are the players would be school dropouts or players cut from their HS teams. I guess there’s different values in different parts of the country.

 

As for who should be starting, zombie pretty much hit it on the head. Parents see things through the prism of their own child and the other players they know well, so the idea of who’s “best” is debatable. But as CoachB25 and FoxDad said, it doesn’t matter what the parents think, it’s the coach’s job to do.

 

Where the problems come in, is when the coach doesn’t make the process and criteria of choosing, as transparent as possible. That allows everyone to come up with their own process and criteria, and chances are they won’t be the same as the coach’s. Usually, all parents have to go by are the numbers, but the coach has much more than that.

 

At some point the coach’s judgment has to be trusted or he may as well be fired. But in the parent’s defense, the coach should make a reasonable effort inform the parents in a general way so they aren’t completely left out of the loop. Compared to all other forms of baseball, HS ball is the most complicated because it’s a mixture of the parents involvement and the player’s being expected to handle a lot more on their own, and errors in the mixture can cause problems.

My son is going through this very thing this year. I made sure that my son understood ahead of time that just because he was better at the position the senior still deserved the chance to hold on to/losse the position. The only thing that complicates things is that the coach told my son that he would share time and DH when not catching; four games in, the coach hasn't held true to that. Yes,things happen but the coach should communicate that with the kid.

Before i joined this site I would have gone off the deep end but after learning a few things i will try to take it in stride and ensure my son keeps a level head because life can be unfair sometimes. Treating it as a character builder.

 

The easy part - there is generally agreement that HS V is geared toward playing the game to win and playing the players that give you the best chance to do so.  The hard part - parents do what they are supposed to do... they see the best in their children and, therefore, have a hard time thinking objectively when they see their son not playing.  Obviously the emotional attachment is strong and the reaction is not always pretty.

 

The players and coaches who are at practice every day usually know.  There are certainly times when there are "grey area" situations.  There is a lot for a coach to consider, for both the program and for the player.  Hopefully, the coach provides ample opportunity for each player to prove there is separation in their favor.  Hopefully, the coach communicates to each player what his given role is at any point in time and each player buys into that role while working on taking on a larger responsibility.  Hopefully, that coach seeks out appropriate game situations when that hard working non-starter can be rewarded with some game time.  When this is happening, most issues take care of themselves.  The others are just another part of the sometimes painful learning process with each new player (and parent) that comes into the program.

Overthehill makes some good points as does SK.  In the end, at most schools in my area, if a coach is not winning, they are released.  Heck, we had an area coach released last year who had 18 wins in what most thought would be a down year for his program.  He did a great job getting those 18 wins.  However, 18 is not 20 and they didn't win a regional and so, in that community, he was booted.  As I have often posted, in my situation when I came to my present school, I was told that there were "high expectations" and that I was expected to turn 2 programs around.  (Baseball and Girl's Basketball)  Anything less, and I knew that I would not be hired back.  There was not one year in that time where I did not play a freshman significant time on the varsity.  The best played per my opinion and I could not count on some upper classmen including an All Conference player who was lazy and thought that he didn't have to earn his position.  I started a freshman over him and that freshman went to be All State before his time was done here.   

Another scenario: Previous year Soph. was on V while Jr. was on JV. This season rolls around, Soph now a Jr. and Jr. now a Sr.

 

Should now Sr. come in to V and automatically get the starting position over 2nd year V Jr. just because he is now a Sr.?

All I can say is it sucked the wind out of the varsity team when coach started 3 freshmen and benched seniors who expected to start.  

 

The freshmen *may* have better skills but it sure made the seniors on the bench feel terrible, which made their upperclassmen friends on the field feel bad, and the team has looked awful so far!  There's something to be said for team dynamics.

And therein lies the problem.  It makes for great sports talk radio, message board posts and parent conversations. 

 

My own feeling is that experience, loyalty, and dedication matters.  So Seniors should get some points for being Seniors.  Unless a kid is an absolute no question about it stud, I would be hesitant to start him over a senior.  BUT, you must perform.  If the performance isn't there, then a change is made. 

It ain't about "feelings".  As stated, it's the coach putting whom he thinks are the best 9 in the lineup.   Instead of "feeling bad" about riding the pine, they should be figuring out how to better themselves in the coach's eyes (usually in practice) so they can get another shot.

 

If he does put the seniors in and they fail to perform or do worse, then what do you do?  Don't assume that putting the seniors in will make the team better though one would hope anytime a change is made it is for the better.

 

 

Anytime you have a level or school where the coaches can get fired for not winning, you would expect to find that the "best 9 on the field" philosophy dominates

 

The "best 9" on the field can change given the circumstances, there may be 2 or 3 variations of the best 9 in one season....and in those times some may sit that otherwise may have started.

 

Facing the tough lefty, I may have to sit my productive hitter who cant hit lefty's, for a another who can. I may need to start my great glove man at 2nd rather than another. I may have to have control of my team on the field to win and that may mean a kid who hits well, but doesn't hit the cutoff man or know the signs or who doesn't run out infield hits has to sit...

 

HS coaches at most schools get fired if they don't produce wins. I've seen schools that seem to have revolving doors on the baseball coaches office. I posed this question to my friend who has been a successful coach for years and his answer was that in his program a senior player who had matured successfully through his system (Fr-JV-Var) usually started the season penciled in as a starter.

 

Once the season started, based on need, injury, production and situation, that went out the window.......except for senior day, when if possible only seniors started.....

 

baseball inst fair...  its probably the least fair game out there..... 

 

It is all a matter of perspective.  There are parents posting here and regardless of whether their child is a freshman or a senior they think that their child should play.  There are coaches here who range from those that say the senior plays because of loyalty to those that say the player that gives the team the best chance to win plays.  I've been both parent and coach and even of my own child.  So, I've seen it from all angles.  There is no way everyone will be satisfied and there aren't right or wrong options. 

 

My child set as a goal at age 12 that she would start varsity as a freshman.  She decided to hit 150 balls a day, work on her pitching and hit the weight room.  I document that on this site and others as she grew up.  I often was torn because I didn't think that this obsession was good.  The summer before her freshman year, she played on 2 TB teams, played in 7 states in tournaments, played 140+ games and played 16 and 18U ball at the age of 13.  What would have be "fair" to her when she made the varsity?  Would you have had her sit so that a senior who didn't put in half of the effort start?  Would you give the senior a position and yet tell mine that she had to earn it?  I recall one upper class pitcher's parent going to the AD and yelling that she didn't go to watch a game where some %$^&%&& freshman was going to pitch ahead of her daughter.  Her daughter didn't bust behind.  Fortunately, for our HS the HC believed that the best play and daughter proved him right. 

It ain't about "feelings".  As stated, it's the coach putting whom he thinks are the best 9 in the lineup.   Instead of "feeling bad" about riding the pine, they should be figuring out how to better themselves in the coach's eyes (usually in practice) so they can get another shot.

 

Agree - but they're kids and it sucked for them, which brought the team down.  If the seniors had started and performed poorly, then they wouldn't have complained so much about being replaced. It may also have helped for the coach to do a better job communicating with the seniors about why the freshmen were starting ahead of them.  At this point the damage is done and the team has to come out of a slump. FWIW my kid is neither a freshman nor a senior on the team...

What about HS JV? Is it all about winning too or seeing what everyone has and working them in and out?

THE ISSUE IS PUTTING THE BEST 9 ON THE FIELD IS NOT A BLACK AND WHITE PROCESS.....

 

As all of you know, the stud players are easy to separate (usually no more than a hand full of players even at the larger high schools). Those that are very poorly skilled players who continue to hang around are easy to separate also and usually get cut if the school is large enough.

 

HOWEVER......... After that, it becomes "little shades of gray" that separate the skill sets/performance of even well above average players.  That could be as many as 10-20 players when you total up all your seniors, Jr, Soph and even those very talented freshmen.  From day to day, any of these players can change their position on the "shades of gray" ranking depending on how their baseball day, week or month is going. 

 

I agree with many that most good programs will give the Senior the first chance even if their "shade of gray" ranking is below that underclassmen until they show inconsistency and that is when you typically see the coach bring the underclassmen in for their shot.  Physicality is a big component also as I see some Soph/Freshmen with slightly better skills, but the stronger/more physical body type of the Senior will trump that advantage.

Just my opinion, but in HS JV the emphasis should be more about player skill development and teamwork.  Winning should not be the primary directive.

So JV should be working players in and out and in different positions while in game situations while striving to win.  Winning is not the be all, end all at the JV level.

 

Varsity is the "show" team where the emphasis is putting the best 9 on the field to win.

 

 

9 best should play no matter how old they are.  My sons HS had 4 freshman start last week.  There is only 1 senior (my son) that starts, only 1 other senior playing.  Those freshman deserve to play, they are the best option.  

 

My sons previous coach never would have played the freshman.  He played a senior at catcher that did not get a hit the entire season.  There where two younger kids on JV that could have played but coach wanted the senior.  

 

If you aren't playing to win then you are doing everyone a disservice.

 

 

There is also something to be said about being mentally tough. If something doesn't go your way you can't fold, like it sounds these seniors did. Nothing in life is given to you. This lesson has been learned by these seniors.

 

In my opinion, if I have a freshman and a senior who are equal skill wise... guess who is in the line up? The freshman. I have 4 years with him to make him better, where as I only have one left in the senior, who may have already peaked.

On varsity talent wins out regardless of age. The only benefit an upperclassman gets is first shot if the talent level appears equal between two players. My freshman daughter was on JV softball the first three games so a senior could start. I didn't sweat it. I knew what would happen. After three games of o'fer with a bunch of Ks my daughter was called up. The coach was about winning.

 

My son beat out a senior his sophomore year. The senior was on the varsity bench the previous year. My son was on JV.

My son dealing with this right now. Because my son is a sophomore the senior, who only DH the last 2 yrs, has played all of first 4 games. We talked about this unfolding before the season started and he understood it could happen, still doesn't make it easier. They have equal bats but my son is more refined defensively. Hopefully the situation works itself out. Thanks to the great advise and level heads on the site I am allowing my son to handle it and support him when he walks through the door. Good life lesson, just hope it doesn't cost him too much.