Shoulder rotation.....

It looks like the swing is a series of rotations and torques.

The core rotates into foot plant creating torque with the upper body. As the transfer of energy climbs toward the barrel, the shoulders begin to rotate releasing the torque created at the core. But, a new torque happens briefly as the back side scap loads. The hands begin the rotation to deliver the barrel into the swing plane, thus releasing the torque with the shoulders. Then, the top arm untucks, creating the final rotation of the barrel to the point of contact.

At each stage of uncoiling, the preceeding rotation slow as the energy transfers to the next stage.

The hips slow down as the shoulders begin to rotate. And, the shoulders slow down as the hands begin to rotate.

I assume it allows the energy to transfer through the next rotation.

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I assume it allows the energy to transfer through the next rotation.

Wayback, interesting observation......Transfering the energy already produced vs. producing new energy........

Some are saying the arms and hands are producing energy, not transferring energy already produced by another power source....

That is probably a better use of words. I tried to convey that by indicating as one "torque" resolves it self, it leads to another "torque", which in turn has to be resolved by a rotation. Each rotation creates energy, but effective only if done properly.

(again, I'm no BD or Shep. lol I'm trying to learn--led largely by your clues. So, don't lead me astray. lol)

Wayback, I can only speak for myself, but, I'm always learning....

Here is my point in this thread.....Is there only one part of the kinetic chain which produces power, or, is there more than one power source?

Do the parts of the kinetic chain transfer power already produced?.....Or, do these different parts produce power themselves?

BD, I think they work together to create whip.

I call it the "moving train". I can throw a ball with a certain velocity. If I stand on a moving platform and throw, the ball will have more velocity.

Each rotation provides the next rotation the moving platform for increased velocity. So, I think there is energy transfered in each rotation, and energy created in each rotation.

Of course, I could be way off. lol

Wayback, I believe each part of the chain can only either transfer, or produce power, but not both.......

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Do the parts of the kinetic chain transfer power already produced?.....Or, do these different parts produce power themselves?

My answers to these two questions are yes and yes. The chain is connected and works together as a unit in the coil and uncoil. Power is produced through the body-train moving, creating torque and working together collectively "as a whole interrelated unit"
peace,
Shep's .02

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Wayback, I believe each part of the chain can only either transfer, or produce power, but not both.......

OK. I'm a clean slate (and, unfortunately impressionable) so, let's give it a try.

The core rotates creating torque. As the shoulders turn, I agree there is no energy transfered from core (rather creating an environment allowing the shoulders to create energy). But, as the shoulders are turning, and the hands begin their movement into extension, are the hands not like the thrower on the train?

Ahh! I see that leads to your initial comment, that the shoulders are halting or slowing down. OK, so what's going on? Why do you think the slowdown occurs? Is it maybe that the shoulder turn creates an environment allowing the hands to create energy/power? Without that environment, there would be less power?

Wayback, I have my own theory as to what happens formulated from my research and trial-and-error......

I won't state my theory on here for various reasons....But, I will give you reason to think, if you so choose....

I don't believe the shoulders move the arms and hands.....I do believe the arms and hands move the shoulders....

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I don't believe the shoulders move the arms and hands.....I do believe the arms and hands move the shoulders....

BlueDog,

I believe the hands and arms move the shoulders too with a lot of help from the torque created in the coil after it uncoils. This is the interrelated unit attaining maximum power from the swing-train/body-train in the carousel coming forward by turning. Remove a link in the chain and the body working together as a "whole unit" will become disconnected. peace

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I won't state my theory on here for various reasons....But, I will give you reason to think, if you so choose....

You know that is one of the things I appreciate.

Bluedog, it appears to me that in the brief instant when the shoulders begin their turn, it appears to me that the hands are rotating to bring the barrel into swing path. But, in that brief instant, it appears to me that the shoulders have begun to turn and the hands are not moving forward, but only positioning for the move forward.

I read of posters being able to look at these videos frame by frame. I do not know how to do that. Is that what you do? Am I seeing it wrong?

It's important to understand, IMO, that the arms and hands do not produce power, but, instead, accept a transfer of power from elsewhere....

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I believe the hands and arms move the shoulders too with a lot of help from the torque created in the coil after it uncoils. This is the interrelated unit attaining maximum power from the swing-train/body-train in the carousel coming forward by turning. Remove a link in the chain and the body working together as a "whole unit" will become disconnected. peace

Hi Shep, thanks for better saying what I tried to say: Is it maybe that the shoulder turn creates an environment allowing the hands to create energy/power? Without that environment, there would be less power

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It's important to understand, IMO, that the arms and hands do not produce power, but, instead, accept a transfer of power from elsewhere....

Ahh! So I go back to my thrower on a train. If the hands accept a transfer of power.....doesn't the untucking/extension process also create power?

Wayback, quicktime player will allow you to look at video frame-by-frame....All you have to do is install it and use it....

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Do the parts of the kinetic chain transfer power already produced?.....Or, do these different parts produce power themselves?

I believe that at that moment of hip explosion, energy produced by the core is transferred up thru the shoulders to the hands. Since the hands are not capable of producing enough energy on their own to hit at the highest levels, the core energy that has has been transferred serves as a power amp to the hands. JMHO

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doesn't the untucking/extension process also create power?

Not, IMO.......It does take power already created and transfers that power into the ball, though.....

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.......energy produced by the core is transferred up thru the shoulders to the hands.

The shoulders are bypassed, IMO.....I believe the transfer goes to the arms and hands.....

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The shoulders are bypassed, IMO.....I believe the transfer goes to the arms and hands.....

Yes bypassed in that the shoulders resist rotation at that moment of hip explosion allowing the energy to transfer to the hands realizing the energy must move thru the shoulders.

I'm going to have to agree with NYDad and BlueDog here Wayback. They're tweaking our knowlege a little That's a good thing! I just stood in front of a full-body length mirror and practiced the hip explosion and I could feel the energy transfer to hands and arms after hip explosion(I like to say hip rotation though). My shoulders still turned but against a rigid frontside in a relaxed manner, kinda like my golf swing. Good stuff fellas and thank you for opening my eyes to this key point. peace, Shep

I suppose I consider the shoulders as a part of the arms.....The shoulders seem to not exist to me anymore.....I even feel the scapulas are loaded by the arms....

In order for the upperhalve to work as a unit and stay connected, I can see why you would say that BlueDog, and I agree. It's like a one piece take away in a golf swing, correct? peace

At contact though, those scapulas have to flex along with the shoulder capsules to absorb the impact of inertia at contact with baseball, correct? peace, Shep

I see arms and hands accepting a transfer of power, but not producing power...

http://www.hitting-mechanics.org/HMOFTP/vlad_tejada_arod_UP.gif

I see where you are getting that philosophy of "it doesn't matter after contact". Those three clips look too chop and stop for me-lol

If you continue those three clips, you will see those hitters stay in the disc-like plane with a slight uppercut in their follow throughs, all three.

On the other hand BlueDog, you are a good instructor with a great deal of knowldege that I have come to respect. The lowerhalve is definitely ceating power, just like in a golfer, tennis player, racquetball player, etc.

Good work BlueDog. Until next time, so long bro! peace, Shep

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The shoulders seem to not exist to me anymore.....

They may not be as important as some believe but they are an integral part of the process. Besides being the conduit for transfer of energy from core to arms/hands, loading the shoulders creates lenght which maximizes whip effect. By simply loading the hands or even keeping them stationary as you stride will naturally load the shoulders.