They know more than me doverdad congrats to him then.
infielddad,
I agree with what you say.
However, I'm not sure exactly what you misunderstand. Is there something different about what we are both saying? Whether a player moves up the ladder, stays where he is at, or is released... Though it is a team game and everyone wants to win it is all about the individual. Perhaps the requirements are different, but that doesn't change what is most important.
Seems like we are saying the same thing. Basically baseball is very much an individual thing. I'm certainly not comparing the levels of competition. All levels, high school and above, are determined by individual performance or talent in one way or another. That part never stops no matter how high a player goes.
Many showcase players are motivated by becoming an early draft pick, getting a scholarship to a certain college, getting a chance to continue at the next level. No it's not pro ball in every case, but it does involve being motivated to continue to play at the next level. And for some, that opportunity could end or be severly hurt at a showcase event.
Point is they don't promote or get rid of the whole team very often. Players are treated individually from the beginning to the end.
I agree with what you say.
However, I'm not sure exactly what you misunderstand. Is there something different about what we are both saying? Whether a player moves up the ladder, stays where he is at, or is released... Though it is a team game and everyone wants to win it is all about the individual. Perhaps the requirements are different, but that doesn't change what is most important.
Seems like we are saying the same thing. Basically baseball is very much an individual thing. I'm certainly not comparing the levels of competition. All levels, high school and above, are determined by individual performance or talent in one way or another. That part never stops no matter how high a player goes.
Many showcase players are motivated by becoming an early draft pick, getting a scholarship to a certain college, getting a chance to continue at the next level. No it's not pro ball in every case, but it does involve being motivated to continue to play at the next level. And for some, that opportunity could end or be severly hurt at a showcase event.
Point is they don't promote or get rid of the whole team very often. Players are treated individually from the beginning to the end.
PG, I thought, and maybe still think, that you are, within the context of this thread, indicating there is the same or similar context of playing as an indvidual in a showcase as exists within Milb and now maybe, with your last post, all levels of baseball.
I don't agree for some of the reasons I indicated.
But let me go one step further: college and high school coaches, in my opinion, work very, very hard to create a team concept out of this individual sport.
In a sense, an AB in baseball or pitching a game, looked at just for that act, is similar to golf which is a very individual sport in nearly every tournament, except you have an opponent(?) in your foursome.
However, when you take one of those golfers and put them into the team context of the Ryder Cup, each and every one talks about how much different it is knowing that a teammate was relying on you to do your job, knowing that whether your team wins or loses depended on whether you made that put or did not make it. In a tournament, if you don't make it, you look yourself in the eye. In the Ryder Cup, if you don't make it, you look 11 teammates and the coaches in the eye.
Every Ryder Cup golfer talks about how much more pressure and competition they feel when the "team" element is part of what they do. When they are teammates you know and see everyday, the pressure to perform is even more intense.
To me, the same is true in Milb, college ball, HS ball, and little league. Sure you are the only one on the mound or in the batters box. But, you know your teammates depend on you.
As you move up in the game, your awareness of the concept of "team" is enhanced by the HS coach, the college coach and by the fact you see every Milb teammate beginning in February of each year...hopefully.
Showcasing your talent, to my way of thinking is very equivalent to playing a golf tournament.
Where the individual aspect to it ends, and new dimensions begin, is when you know teammates and coaches are depending on YOU to do your job, whether it is to get that last out in the last inning or drive in that run in the same situation.
Every June, we can all now enjoy watching the CWS from Omaha. I can never imagine the intensity of that competition and, for me at least, it isn't just because this pitcher needs to get this hitter out. It is truly because the pitcher knows he needs to do his job and that 24 other players who started with him on February 1 are depending on him. He could care less about his velocity or what some scout in the stands thinks of his fastball, if it got an out and he did the job for himself...and his teammates.
I don't agree for some of the reasons I indicated.
But let me go one step further: college and high school coaches, in my opinion, work very, very hard to create a team concept out of this individual sport.
In a sense, an AB in baseball or pitching a game, looked at just for that act, is similar to golf which is a very individual sport in nearly every tournament, except you have an opponent(?) in your foursome.
However, when you take one of those golfers and put them into the team context of the Ryder Cup, each and every one talks about how much different it is knowing that a teammate was relying on you to do your job, knowing that whether your team wins or loses depended on whether you made that put or did not make it. In a tournament, if you don't make it, you look yourself in the eye. In the Ryder Cup, if you don't make it, you look 11 teammates and the coaches in the eye.
Every Ryder Cup golfer talks about how much more pressure and competition they feel when the "team" element is part of what they do. When they are teammates you know and see everyday, the pressure to perform is even more intense.
To me, the same is true in Milb, college ball, HS ball, and little league. Sure you are the only one on the mound or in the batters box. But, you know your teammates depend on you.
As you move up in the game, your awareness of the concept of "team" is enhanced by the HS coach, the college coach and by the fact you see every Milb teammate beginning in February of each year...hopefully.
Showcasing your talent, to my way of thinking is very equivalent to playing a golf tournament.
Where the individual aspect to it ends, and new dimensions begin, is when you know teammates and coaches are depending on YOU to do your job, whether it is to get that last out in the last inning or drive in that run in the same situation.
Every June, we can all now enjoy watching the CWS from Omaha. I can never imagine the intensity of that competition and, for me at least, it isn't just because this pitcher needs to get this hitter out. It is truly because the pitcher knows he needs to do his job and that 24 other players who started with him on February 1 are depending on him. He could care less about his velocity or what some scout in the stands thinks of his fastball, if it got an out and he did the job for himself...and his teammates.
I think the difference is in terms of how one showcases themselves as part of a team vs. how one showcases oneself at a showcase.
Individual performance is the key in both cases, but over a season there are enough opportunities to show one's ability and helping the team win can and should take precedence over showcasing one's ability. A pitcher helps his team by pitching as well as he can at the velocity he pitches best at. For a closer, that may be pretty close to max velocity. For a starter that may be 3 or 4 mph below max velocity. A starter would only throw a max velocity pitch if it made sense within the context of the game, such as setting up an off speed pitch or trying to get a hitter to chase a high pitch. In a showcase, although a pitcher should be doing essentially the same thing, there's also the need to put a number on the gun so the max velocity pitch may be dictated by having gotten the first couple batters out without having thrown a max velocity pitch rather than the game situation.
For what it is worth, the strategy we used was to pitch on the high side of the working velocity if he could throw strikes at that speed and to also look for opportunities to throw a high hard one such as an 0-2 count or if he'd already gotten to the last batter without having let one loose.
As far as the fastballs only that certainly wasn't an option as there's more to show than just the fastball.
Of course the strategy always took a back seat to "what kind of stuff/control" did he have that particular day and how many innings he was going to be pitching.
Individual performance is the key in both cases, but over a season there are enough opportunities to show one's ability and helping the team win can and should take precedence over showcasing one's ability. A pitcher helps his team by pitching as well as he can at the velocity he pitches best at. For a closer, that may be pretty close to max velocity. For a starter that may be 3 or 4 mph below max velocity. A starter would only throw a max velocity pitch if it made sense within the context of the game, such as setting up an off speed pitch or trying to get a hitter to chase a high pitch. In a showcase, although a pitcher should be doing essentially the same thing, there's also the need to put a number on the gun so the max velocity pitch may be dictated by having gotten the first couple batters out without having thrown a max velocity pitch rather than the game situation.
For what it is worth, the strategy we used was to pitch on the high side of the working velocity if he could throw strikes at that speed and to also look for opportunities to throw a high hard one such as an 0-2 count or if he'd already gotten to the last batter without having let one loose.
As far as the fastballs only that certainly wasn't an option as there's more to show than just the fastball.
Of course the strategy always took a back seat to "what kind of stuff/control" did he have that particular day and how many innings he was going to be pitching.
infielddad,
Obviously I've failed miserably making my point.
First of all I am a gigantic believer in "team", Team work, sacrifice, etc. That's exactly how we won when I coached in college.
That said, anyone, including yourself has to recognize the big difference between the various levels. While they all pertain to the individual, it doesn't mean team is completely ignored in every case.
Perhaps team is most ignored in showcase type events just as it doesn't exist in Major League Tryouts. I have a hard time comparing high school, college and professional baseball from a team perspective. High school is played with your friends, it is truly a team experience. Some travel teams are very similair, others are not. College is played with your new friends and in many cases you will "live" with them for a few years. Pro ball, as most of us know, is still played with a team concept, but as you mentioned, it could end at any time for an individual. It's very much an individual thing.
Once again... College player decides to stay or transfer based on many things. Most enjoy where they're at and stay there with their team mates and coach. Pro players just don't have that decision and if they did... I ask, once again... How many low A would rather win a A pennant rather than be promoted to AA? Better yet, how many AAA players would hope to stay with their team in a pennant race rather than get the call? That is an example of individual baseball. Of course, the players don't get to make those decisions.
I think winning a high school or college championship is as big as it gets. But for some individuals it gets much bigger than that.
Also, there is no reason why the great individual can not also be a great team player. In fact, many of them are! Some great "team" players stick around for years in Pro Ball for just that reason... They are known as organizational guys.
In all sports, individual or team sports, there is individual success and failure. We see lots of those who have succeeded right to the top. Only a few years ago we did a showcase that had 17 future first round picks. Rick Porcello, Jason Heyward, Madison Bumgardner, etc. TherE might end up even more who went to college from that event after this year's draft. These guys all competed hard even in the individual event. It's funny how they can do this and still get along with all their team mates who they just met. No the score is not very important, but the competition is.
Anyway, I was simply trying to join the discussion thinking I might have something to offer. I don't really care if anyone agrees with me. I sure didn't want to offend anyone with my opinion, which could very well be wrong.
Obviously I've failed miserably making my point.
First of all I am a gigantic believer in "team", Team work, sacrifice, etc. That's exactly how we won when I coached in college.
That said, anyone, including yourself has to recognize the big difference between the various levels. While they all pertain to the individual, it doesn't mean team is completely ignored in every case.
Perhaps team is most ignored in showcase type events just as it doesn't exist in Major League Tryouts. I have a hard time comparing high school, college and professional baseball from a team perspective. High school is played with your friends, it is truly a team experience. Some travel teams are very similair, others are not. College is played with your new friends and in many cases you will "live" with them for a few years. Pro ball, as most of us know, is still played with a team concept, but as you mentioned, it could end at any time for an individual. It's very much an individual thing.
Once again... College player decides to stay or transfer based on many things. Most enjoy where they're at and stay there with their team mates and coach. Pro players just don't have that decision and if they did... I ask, once again... How many low A would rather win a A pennant rather than be promoted to AA? Better yet, how many AAA players would hope to stay with their team in a pennant race rather than get the call? That is an example of individual baseball. Of course, the players don't get to make those decisions.
I think winning a high school or college championship is as big as it gets. But for some individuals it gets much bigger than that.
Also, there is no reason why the great individual can not also be a great team player. In fact, many of them are! Some great "team" players stick around for years in Pro Ball for just that reason... They are known as organizational guys.
In all sports, individual or team sports, there is individual success and failure. We see lots of those who have succeeded right to the top. Only a few years ago we did a showcase that had 17 future first round picks. Rick Porcello, Jason Heyward, Madison Bumgardner, etc. TherE might end up even more who went to college from that event after this year's draft. These guys all competed hard even in the individual event. It's funny how they can do this and still get along with all their team mates who they just met. No the score is not very important, but the competition is.
Anyway, I was simply trying to join the discussion thinking I might have something to offer. I don't really care if anyone agrees with me. I sure didn't want to offend anyone with my opinion, which could very well be wrong.
Go back to LL tryouts and watch the kids compete---there is no scorekeeping , no teams but each of them wants to make a team and show they are better than the other kids in their class---in my book you do not play sports , or any game for that matter, if you don't want to be the best and beat your opponent.
I think the point that PG Staff makes about baseball being a team game with individuals doing their thing is well taken. What I appreciate about showcases and travel teams is that the kids are all there for the same end---to perform well and be seen--and you rarely see "jealousy" between the players---they rapidly become a "team".
we do an interesting thing every year with our travel team when we meet for the first time--the coaches do not introduce the players to each other--we put them in the dugout and tell them let each other know who you are---make your own introductions---you would be amazed how it works--why???--because they are all here with the same goal and they appreciate the talent of each other
Keep in mind that life is filled with competitiveness
I think the point that PG Staff makes about baseball being a team game with individuals doing their thing is well taken. What I appreciate about showcases and travel teams is that the kids are all there for the same end---to perform well and be seen--and you rarely see "jealousy" between the players---they rapidly become a "team".
we do an interesting thing every year with our travel team when we meet for the first time--the coaches do not introduce the players to each other--we put them in the dugout and tell them let each other know who you are---make your own introductions---you would be amazed how it works--why???--because they are all here with the same goal and they appreciate the talent of each other
Keep in mind that life is filled with competitiveness
I saw a story over at milb.com about Micah Owings. Here are a few choice quotes from his college coach:
quote:"The one thing that I've always said Micah has is some intangible things that you can't really teach or coach," Parrott said. "He had a great desire to win and did not accept losing. He probably wasn't the best pitcher ... probably didn't have the best stuff in the league, but what he did have was that he refused to lose.
"He's a tough-minded kid, he was one of those guys that was going to give you everything he had on every pitch he threw. Even when he didn't have his best stuff, he never thought he was going to lose. He didn't accept losing."
ClevelandDad,
Micah also threw 97 at the 2002 WWBA National Championship and hit one of the longest HRs we've seen in the same game. Add on the intangibles to that and he is something special. His only problem back then and still today is commanding the strike zone. If he ever figures out how to correct that he might become a super star.
Micah also threw 97 at the 2002 WWBA National Championship and hit one of the longest HRs we've seen in the same game. Add on the intangibles to that and he is something special. His only problem back then and still today is commanding the strike zone. If he ever figures out how to correct that he might become a super star.
PG - Rick Ankiel appeared to have a very promising hitting career going after his pitching career fizzled out. Is it possible Micah could have even a brighter future if they had him convert to a full time hitter?
CD,
That is a very good point!
Sometimes I actually think he is a better hitter than pitcher. He has a lifetime batting ave. of .300 and averages over a HR every 10 ABs in the Major Leagues. You have to wonder what he would be capable of if he were in the lineup every day.
That is a very good point!
Sometimes I actually think he is a better hitter than pitcher. He has a lifetime batting ave. of .300 and averages over a HR every 10 ABs in the Major Leagues. You have to wonder what he would be capable of if he were in the lineup every day.
my 2 cents on the milb thing. it's really the first time in your baseball life, you play for you.
in high school you represent your school, all your teamates are driven to win for the school. same thing in college.
but once you collect a paycheck for playing, it's the first time in your baseball life you play for yourself. sure they all want to win but they don't all want you to be the big deal doing it. even teams that go undefeated release player's. in pro ball like life, there are different tolerance's for different player's. the 45th rounder won't alway's get the same chances as the 5th rounder, maybe he shouldn't.
every pitcher in the bullpen wants you to fail or not do so well. their future may depend on your failure. your all alone on a team, everyone gets along ok. but it's all about you. i've painted the picture with a broad brush but i don't think i went to far out of the lines. but this is just my take, i've been wrong before also.
it's a big business, disquised as a little boy's dream.
in high school you represent your school, all your teamates are driven to win for the school. same thing in college.
but once you collect a paycheck for playing, it's the first time in your baseball life you play for yourself. sure they all want to win but they don't all want you to be the big deal doing it. even teams that go undefeated release player's. in pro ball like life, there are different tolerance's for different player's. the 45th rounder won't alway's get the same chances as the 5th rounder, maybe he shouldn't.
every pitcher in the bullpen wants you to fail or not do so well. their future may depend on your failure. your all alone on a team, everyone gets along ok. but it's all about you. i've painted the picture with a broad brush but i don't think i went to far out of the lines. but this is just my take, i've been wrong before also.
it's a big business, disquised as a little boy's dream.
I agree with 20Dad, things are a lot different when you get paid to play. Yes, you want to win, because you know that is important to the organization you play for, the more you win, the better their farm looks and that is part of your job, they want their farm to look good and be prosperous.
I can tell you that there is not the same feeling there that one has playing for their HS or college team, mainly because many coaches have worked hard at developing team chemisty, that's not what they do in proball.
This was one of the biggest transitions son had to make, always being a very strong team player, he came from a college program where there is no such thing as i in team. It's a big adjustment that hits harder as you move up levels.
As an example, if you are pitching a game and get a hit off of you, and your teammate doesn't work hard for it (some don't like touching a tough grounder it as it produces E's), then that player who probably stayed out too late or is just very tired for some reason or another might or might not get a bad report, in college, regardless, that same player might get a verbal lashing or taken out of the game. The guys behind you in college will make ESPN plays and sometimes wind up getting hurt, you don't see that in proball, if you get hurt, the next guy gets to move up and you might not get your position back so soon if he can hit.
It's all so different.
JMO.
I can tell you that there is not the same feeling there that one has playing for their HS or college team, mainly because many coaches have worked hard at developing team chemisty, that's not what they do in proball.
This was one of the biggest transitions son had to make, always being a very strong team player, he came from a college program where there is no such thing as i in team. It's a big adjustment that hits harder as you move up levels.
As an example, if you are pitching a game and get a hit off of you, and your teammate doesn't work hard for it (some don't like touching a tough grounder it as it produces E's), then that player who probably stayed out too late or is just very tired for some reason or another might or might not get a bad report, in college, regardless, that same player might get a verbal lashing or taken out of the game. The guys behind you in college will make ESPN plays and sometimes wind up getting hurt, you don't see that in proball, if you get hurt, the next guy gets to move up and you might not get your position back so soon if he can hit.
It's all so different.
JMO.