Showcasing beyond ability

I imagine this happens quite frequently.  Kid on my son's summer team threw upper 90's but no clue where it would go.  I swear he would average 3 walks and 2 strikeouts an inning.  Drafted in the 20th round and signed.  Got very few innings.

Son goes to a local JUCO that is pretty good.  Last year about 5 D-1 guys transferred in as sophomores.  We have a pool on who will join him there his sophomore year that transfer in.  He says his teammates have one going to on who comes in.

I think it's a little of both.  Players and parents think the boy will get a lot of playing time and he doesnt so they bolt.  And the coach thinks he is better or thinks he can take the hard throwing guy and teach him to throw strikes and he cant, so he never pitches him.

Interesting thought. I'm kind of keeping an eye on a somewhat local kid that I saw play from around 10U on. I knew of him because my wife and his mom went to high school together and my wife always pointed him out to me. If she hadn't of, I would have never known who he was as he didn't stand out at any point over the years.

He is going to a very good D2 as a catcher. I was surprised to hear this and spoke to someone who had seen him play a lot more than I had. The word was that he had an excellent pop time with accurate throws during camp/showcase situations and could hit well in camp/showcase BP.

During games, his throws rarely threw out runners and he's never been a great hitter.

Projectability seems to be the key. Can't teach size, speed or velocity. I'm under the impression most coaches think much of the game portion can be taught or greatly improved once they have the player.

6'2, 205lb SS/P that runs a 6.7 60 yd dash & owns a 90+ fastball and a good foundation but average HS stats has a more potential than a 5'9, 165lb SS/P who runs a 7.2 60 yard dash and a 85 mph fastball and great HS stats. 

I dont think its fooling the coach as much as the coach believing he can mold the tools and intangibles of the player that puts up good showcase numbers. I think both types of player gets a chance to play...just for different reasons. 

When someone mentions that a kid with questionable abilities lands on a college roster, I always think that what they don't know how much money that player received or if they are receiving any athletic money.  Some college coaches see a young man play and think to themselves that they can correct some issues that the player has and so would see a significant improvement in production.  Some college coaches develop a history with a player and so are willing to take a chance.  To be honest, some college coaches develop relationships with certain JUCO coaches and so, take a player now and then to continue that relationship.  Once the player is on the squad, nothing is guaranteed and so often those players disappear from the roster. 

Interesting question and one I've always wondered about. Heading in to my son's senior year of HS baseball, there were several D1 commits but 2 in particular were head-scratchers.  Both big showcase/travel ball guys. Neither one did much their senior seasons and after getting to college, both faded into the sunset - neither one ever played and both were done with baseball after their freshman year of college. Ironically, a number of less heralded kids off that team went on to success post-HS.

The question coaches need to ask is are they looking for athletes or players.  Showcases, combines and such are great for finding athletes.  You can run thru 100's of players in a short period of time.  You need games to find payers.  It is a much more laborious process. 

You see this in the NFL a ton.  Athletic guys that can "jump out of the pool" but can't block, tackle, or cover someone to save their lives. 

Great question.  This IMO is the "problem" with baseball scouting/recruiting.  Its not really a problem but more of the reality.  We had a scout who really liked one of our pitchers.  Kid was 6' 4" as a sophomore, tall lanky built like a pitcher.  Scout said he was really projectable.  He said that the kid would be all-state, I bet him he'd never even be all league.  Kid is now is Senior and has only pitched on JV a few times.  

Problem is scouts/recruiters only can see a small snapshot of a player.  I think that the big problem is the oposite, those kids that can compete but get over looked.  That has always been my son, he doesn't look like an athlete, hes big and slow doesn't have a ton of power, doesn't throw hard from the mound.  But every team he's been on he's excelled, he uses it as motivation.  Fortunantely for him he was able to find a small college to play at where he will have to prove himself again.  But that's fine with him.

I really don't know that there is a way to change this, baseball still is a game played by atheletes.

So, Dave, you actually bet on a sophomore failing?

I'm sure that Dave's point was that he disagreed with the scout.  This is no different than when I am called and asked by college coaches in both softball and baseball my opinion about prospects.  I give an honest answer and yes, sometimes I tell them that in my opinion any certain player can not play at their school. 

Those who make their living evaluating players are as subject to the same variations in quality that affect any other profession. There are ones who are extremely good at it, and there are others who will probably be trying their hand at something else in a year or two...and everything in between.

The ones who are really good at it don't need to see much to recognize tools and potential. The ones who are really good at it also work hard enough at it that they make a point to get multiple viewings (either their own or from trusted others), and they talk with players' coaches they believe they can trust in order to get as good a fix on their "makeup" and game-day qualities as they can. 

A final observation:  The parents who seem quickest to single out players who were "over-rated," condemning recruiters and scouts in the process, are the ones whose sons are having the hardest time getting noticed.

Saw a very tall kid with very little athleticism go to a D2 as a pitcher. 6'8" and heavy, he was a project as a pitcher since he never threw hard in high school. Low 80's at best. Redshirted a year, didn't get off the bench the next, and quit baseball. Never had a winning record in high school or legion. But, he was big.

As far as college camps and showcase camps with a pro style workout... If your kid has good size, very good speed, and athleticism, and hits and fields well enough, then do it. If your kid produces during games, but doesn't have great size, great speed, and athleticism, then he's not going to be discovered at a camp.

If your kid is of average size or small, and has average or below average speed, then don't waste your money. The exceptions would be a kid who throws extremely hard for his age, or hits several out during bp. Those two things would get noticed.

It just hit a bad chord. I had a guy come up to me two years ago to tell me that in a conversation with the coach about my son, he'd expressed that he'd be a high school stud only to have the coach bet him a case of beer that my kid would never play varsity baseball. It didn't sit well.

We bet that the kid would not be all-state not that he wouldn't succeed.  What this scout didn't see was that everytime we put him in a game he failed.  He hit more kids than he struck out.

I believe that one of the things we fail to do in our society is be honest with our kids about their abilities.  This scout also gave the kid private lessons and took his mom's money and telling her the kid was good.  Not right IMO.  Then as I coach I look bad because I can't play the kid.  When a scout or coach asks about one of my players.  I need to be honest with them. It doesn't do either of us any good to oversell a players abilities.

That drives me nuts as well.  Also coaches that in the fall tell a kid he's going to be the starting whatever then when spring rolls around the kid never gets off the bench.  My son's HS coach did that to a kid this year.  Coach told the kid and his dad in the fall that he would be the starting 2B.  Kid never saw an inning in the field on varsity this season.  There's no need to set a kid up like that.  There is a lot that can happen to a kid between fall and spring and who knows how it will work out so why say anything.

Coaches say that stuff because they feel they can't say "I'm going to play the best nine guys." Or they don't want to be honest about it.

The best HS coach in our state flat-out tells the kids that the best nine play and that's all there is to it - and he's willing to make changes when kids he thought were going to be good end up struggling. That second part is the real key - being willing to see that your initial read was wrong and adjust off of that. Too many coaches go down with the ship.

I think it happens all the time at least at the high school and college level.....Coaches can get fooled with kids who can produce (and do produce) in games but coaches fall in love with physical tools of other players.  Truthfully, I've seen these scenarios play out time and time again at the high school and college level. 

Bad game coaches can be limited by their biases toward the physical tool player.  Good game coaches know who can do what to whom (regardless of physical tools) to get an advantage over the other team.  It is always about maximizing strengths and minimizing weaknesses.  It is always going to come down to talent, and how the talent is evaluated.  Talent comes in many different packages, and good coaches understand that...IMHO.  Some coaches are really good at it, and others not.  Some coaches think about getting results and others think about putting the best physical specimen on the field. 

Professional baseball is an entirely different matter.

What were really talking about here is the tools that a player can show and the ability to play the game. Production vs potential to produce. This works both ways. Some players don't showcase well but are very good players. They run very average times. They don't show a great arm but they know how to make what they have work. They don't show big in bp but they can hit. Some kids can put on a show in bp but cant hit. Some kids have a big arm but cant use it. And of course some kids look like Tarzan and play like Jane.

It happens. Certain coaches feel that they have to take shots on certain players. While other coaches don't feel they have to. But the bottom line is it will come down to who can produce and who can not. Yes some kids are going to have to prove they can play while others are going to have to prove they can not. And the showcase pro style workout where its about the 60, velo, and BP and of course the eye test will always favor the toolsy guy over the guy who can simply play.

As a HS coach I have seen many players over the years that looked the part but couldn't play. And I have seen many players that didn't look the part that could flat out play. But I don't have to go on looks. I can simply play the best nine players that give us the best chance to win. College coaches don't get to see these guys every day and in every game. In some cases they are just getting a snap shot of potential. You might get a shot because you pass the eye ball test and show the tools. But at some point and time your going to have to prove you can play. And you might have a tougher road if your not a toolsy player. But if your willing to go down that road you can beat those odds by proving you can play.

My sons former college team had three guys drafted this year. One was a transfer with a big arm that got drafted on the fact he can throw upper 90's and has tremendous potential. The other two were not recruited by a single D1 program. And lightly recruited period. They both as freshman would not impress you with a single tool. Avg arms. Decent speed. Avg bp. But both can flat out play the game. And over the course of their four years in college worked their butts off to consistently improve those tools while showing they could flat out the play the game. Were all those D1 programs wrong for not offering them? No. There were guys with better tools at that time who could also flat out play the game.

I will say this. There is a reason some D1 programs have always been bottom feeders and always will be. They try to compete with the programs that can get those players that can play with those tools by recruiting like wise tools but guys that cant play. Instead of simply going out and getting guys that might not have the same tools but can simply play. Year after year they do the same thing expecting different results. Are they getting fooled or are they simply fools? Look UNC FSU LSU etc don't have to look for kids that don't show the tools but can play. They get the guys that have the tools and can play. Just like there are programs that routinely stay at the bottom there are programs that do a great job of getting those guys that fly under the radar because they don't impress with the eye ball test.

So yes Coaches get fooled. And its not because the player is smarter than they are. Its because they are trying to be something they cant be by banking on someone they want him to be instead of what he is. They would be better served by understanding who they are and what they need in order to compete. They have guys who throw 90 we got to get some 90 guys to compete. But the problem is their 90 guys can also pitch and yours cant. So get some mid 80 guys who can pitch and compete. And with some development and hard work they may just throw 90 and really understand how to pitch. Instead of consistently getting your arse handed to you. Fooled or foolish?

Coach May once again you nailed it. And you were spot on about Pat and Eric. My son played with them on travel and against them in High School. Actually, their whole travel team was made up with players like that. They shook things up when they grinded to a 3rd place finish at East Cobb 17u WWBA. They now have 4 players off of that team in pro ball and a good chance for a few more next year. Its hard to tell about grinders but there is something about them that when you notice you fall in love with them.

Great post by Coach May.

Maybe, for parents and players, it's about focusing on those things that are relevant to you and not worrying about whether or not some other player has an edge because they have won some imaginary beauty contest.  All coaches love players who win games.  The trick is hanging around long enough to prove you are a winner.