Slotting the rear elbow...careful!

Rear elbow slot is relaxed! Not down and not up. You are right when you say that many are quick to speak about this in hitting terms but most hitters will allow it to slot properly for their anatomical makeup. JMHO!

Coach B25. Gwynn said the same thing almost a direct quote but his photos showed something entirely differently.

Try something for fun..Get a bat and get in a neutral rear elbow position and load. Now increase the height of the rear elbow and repeat..continue up about 15 degrees each time . The bat wil work up over you helmet splitting it with the higher elbow

I feel a mechanical loading advantages as you go up. I feel a relaxed front side getting pulled back to a firing position with ease. I cannot personally feel it with the elbow down . This is a big area that has made a difference...how to load and why the rear elbow is at the top of the load cycle for many great players. Pushing the shoulder around from the front side can cause some problems IMO.

Tell me what you think....I feel something there I like ...might just be me

The answer...you can prove it with a plio cord

The higher elbow with a pronated top hand exerts a greater pull back force with half the effort than the hand and elbow that is sitting already in the slot. The former is how you pull a bow back. The indians figured that out before baseball.

Swingbuster, so you say that they should be in a state of discomfort or tense? I haven't read Gwynn's book as of yet other than the foreword. Somehow, I find it hard to believe that Gwynn with all of the $$$ film that I know he studied, etc. not knowing what he did in his swing. I'm not trying to argue this I am stating that he is one of the most educated people I have ever heard speak on hitting and ... Can I ask you this, when I say relaxed, what do you envision? Here is what I envision, if I were carring around a club and a man attacked me, how would I carry that club to most efficiently protect myself? I think that the body is telling you thorough nature what is best and quickest. JMHO!

"Swingbuster, so you say that they should be in a state of discomfort or tense?"

CoachB25, I know you didn't ask me, but, I think the answer to your question is, yes.....There should be tension in the scapula.....And, when they're first learning this stretch, there should be some discomfort.....After awhile, normality will replace the discomfort.....And, all is well in hitting land......

BlueDog, when a person is working on quickness say in boxing, do they tighten their biceps or do they keep them loose to initiate a jab? I understand what you both are saying and I'll go down and hit a few. I believe in relaxed because I believe that relaxed (again, not up and not down but where the hitter feels natural but no tension)enable the quick twitch to fire faster. This is also what just about every manuel I have ever read on quick twitch muscles supports. Can either of you cite any books etc. that cites differing opinions on the initiation of quick twitch muscles?

Interesting thread being that I just noticed this last night when I was watching my son hit into a heavy bag last night.

For the last two weeks, he has been working on one handed swings with the rear elbow maintained in the slot position (Mankin Drill). Last night, My son was starting the full swing mechanics but was placing way to much emphasis on trying to get his elbow into the slot and maintaining its position until contact. His swing was not fluid at all and he was really tensing up on his back arm. I told him to forget about his back elbow and concentrate on being palm up/palm down at contact with the bag with his lead elbow high. All I can say is "Holy ****!!!", the gates of Heaven started opening, Dogs and Cats were getting along, Peace had broken out around the World and my son had the best looking swing in all of baseball. Ok, I am exaggerating a little bit, (Gates of Heaven never opened, LOL) but the point of it was that after we concentrated on the front side cues, my son got it and his elbow was slotting naturally with out being all tense. It looked very fluid, like a baseball player should.

Now, this was just a drill on a heavy bag but we are going to the cages tonight to see if he can do it there also.

I don't claim to be any sort of hitting Guru, so take this info with a grain of Salt but in my most recent experience empasizing the front side cues worked better than cueing the rear elbow into the slot position.

I learned how to hit with my elbow up. It was relaxed and comfortable for me. My son learned how to hit with his elbow 45 degrees down. That was relaxed and comfortable for him. He seems to have raised it a bit recently. Still comfortable and relaxed. Much ado about nothing.

THis topic goes back to the issue of how to get the bat back in position at load. It is real important. I never write about things I have always done correctly which gives me a long list.

The rear elbow at address is relaxed and tension free. When you decide to take the bat back it will elevate to the greatest leverage point that is right for you. Try to pull a bow back with a low elbow ...not possible. In rotational hitting that might be higher than you think. Its high enough that it tips the bat forward cocking the wrist( or they can be precocked) as your rear elbow works back in inside. The bottom hand works under the top, the elbow move inside, the bat flattens, hands unlock and comes out in a circular path The flattening of the bat unlocks the mechanism

Gwynn said about the rear elbow " some guys have it low and some high its a personal thing" .....but he went on to say that when every good hitters front foot come down his hands are in a high cocked position. He did not mention elbow in this statement but I assure you his picture has it very very high at toe touch. By now Coach B25 has seen that image...I know personally that he is very thorough

Watch this elbow all over the map until he loads into the launch position. These guys draw back for a pretty good cut. I know...gonzo doesn't

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/palmeiro3.mpeg

Cadad....about nothing? go watch you son hit again and see where it is at the end of his load cycle. Tell him to keep it down and load as before and hit...then report what its about. How you load and unload/rotate the upper body might be the most important part of the swing...to me anyway. It was the most misunderstood part by me anyway

CoachB25, why would I be interested in fast twitch muscles?....Please explain....

quote:

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Originally posted by CADad:
I learned how to hit with my elbow up. It was relaxed and comfortable for me. My son learned how to hit with his elbow 45 degrees down. That was relaxed and comfortable for him. He seems to have raised it a bit recently. Still comfortable and relaxed. Much ado about nothing.

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CADad, When you say learned how to hit with your elbow up, do you mean the position of your elbow in your stance? pre swing style? load? impact?

quote:

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Originally posted by CADad:
I learned how to hit with my elbow up. It was relaxed and comfortable for me. My son learned how to hit with his elbow 45 degrees down. That was relaxed and comfortable for him. He seems to have raised it a bit recently. Still comfortable and relaxed. Much ado about nothing.

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I think you just made my point. Anatomically doesn't your body tell each of us where that back elbow should be? Notice again that I am saying relaxed and not up or down.

BlueDog, the reason I say quick twitch is that the batter is in a position that they have to have pitch recoginition and location while at the same time they have to be able to activate that bat from load to swing. Are you saying that you do that with strength muscles? I believe all that I have read states that quick twitch muscles activate the bat from a point of load in the swing and in the split seconds from recognition too contact the transformation occurs to strenght and core. (Now, we all know that core was involved all along.) Thoughts?

"Are you saying that you do that with strength muscles?"

CoachB25, yessir, I believe great hitters do.......Concerning the upper half, I believe the abs and shoulders (large muscles), both, initiate, and power the swing......I submit that the hands and arms (small muscles) act to transfer the power to the bat by connecting to and being pulled bythe shoulders and then hooking just before or at ball contact......This is what I teach..........

BlueDog, when you posts strength, I agreed that some strength muscles are necessary including the core for load. However, for the hands to be fast to the ball, I don't believe that you can have a flexed bicep and be fast. I use common sense analogies and when I flex my bicep and try to be quick say in punching out, my reactions are slow. When I keep them relaxed, I am so much quicker. Hey, thanks for this discussion. I did go and give it a whirl last night but I didn't feel quicker. Did you not like my analogy of where you would place that bat if someone were attacking you? Again, wouldn't you hands be quicker throwing that barrel end at the attacker by having that back elbow slotted? For sure, have a Great Day!

It doesn't matter whether your elbow is up or down...at toe touch, for most hitters, it is close to a 45 degree angle. Some higher, some lower. There is not a cookie cutter approach for hitters.

If it is close to 45 degrees, why just start there?

CoachB25, is it reality to relate boxing movements with hitting movements?.....I really don't know...........

I do know, I place a big emphasis on bat quickness.....And, torque plays a significant role in what and how I teach hitting......The more torque I can create, the quicker my bat will be, if I release it properly.......And, torque comes from the big muscles (hips & shoulders).....I want to see lots of stretch (torque) at the load position.....Now, if I release all this torque with the hands and arms (small muscles), I will lose it, because I have not unloaded it properly......."Hands to the ball" is a cue I stay away from.......

Back elbow up or down?......If you get it back and in enough, probably doesn't matter.....I teach keep it up, because I want my hitters to center the bat over the helmet....And, it helps them do so......However, the front elbow must work upward.....

Blue Dog...

Agree ..when the elbow moves up the bat levers over the helmet.. now the elbow must work inside now to get the bat on plane. So your up and in by this method every pitch. The UP forces the IN to follow. As the hands flatten the bats gets (TG) "a running start in the circular path". The hip then shoulder turn redirect it as it "turns the corner" and you have the correct bat angle and hands leading the barrel but in a circular path.

TG"
You also would want the lower body to have transferred its momentum to the torso before the bathead fires out so that the torso is fully enegized when the bathead leaves the arc of the handpath."

THis means you cannot land your foot as you swing ..you must form a solid front side base as you upper body starts to unload.

and therefore, the "hands-back hitter", correct?

.......precisely....

Actually - not precise at all.

Sadly - you do not incorporate into your "golden rules" all of the variables that comprise an individual's hitting ability.

Basically - an incomplete analysis IMO.
An attempt to package a single method of hitting - with no regard to all of the other factors involved in the action.

Just more detailed mumbo jumbo - incomplete and shallow in its own self absorbed preoccupation with perceived "truths".

Basically - ****. IMO

Itsinthegame:

Great post!

THop

bbscout,
In my stance. I was taught by Jim Lefebvre's dad and he was a big fan of Yaz's. My son's was about 45 degrees down in the stance and now it is up more. I don't worry about it.

I had him doing some dry swings in the mirror and I saw him pivoting his hips 90 degrees with the elbow still up. Obviously he doesn't do that when he's hitting but it scared me more than a little bit. I think he was overdoing trying to keep the hands back. I had him make sure his elbow dropped as he began to pivot.

game.........

For the sake of homing in on certain aspects of the swing the subject was limited and focused on purpose. Expanded swing mechanic discussions can get too big for comprehension or interest. I chose this topic of how to load because I see it as important and obviously misunderstood or deemed a no teach by those that have kids or players that do it well. I wanted to hear other opinions. Having no interest or understanding of how the upper body rotates is an opinion I suppose.
If yours isn't broke please don't fix it.

game writes...

"Sadly - you do not incorporate into your "golden rules" all of the variables that comprise an individual's hitting ability."

Why don't you post you "variables that compromise an individuals hitting ability"....

You put your target up for a while and let us shoot at it

quote:

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Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Actually - not precise at all.

Sadly - you do not incorporate into your "golden rules" all of the variables that comprise an individual's hitting ability.

Basically - an incomplete analysis IMO.
An attempt to package a single method of hitting - with no regard to all of the other factors involved in the action.

Just more detailed mumbo jumbo - incomplete and shallow in its own self absorbed preoccupation with perceived "truths".

Basically - ****. IMO

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This is what we've been waiting for. I think It's is about to say something about hitting.

Been waiting for 3 years.

Let's have it.

Game writes

"You need to calm down and enjoy the game and contribute in a positive way.

Posting insults on a website is pure loser stuff.It is desperate and pathetic - and I feel bad for you."

Tell me you did not post this to another member after what you wrote to me????

How ya like it buster?

They have opinions...........just not based on any set of facts.

He has no clue the significance of what you're saying. You continue to study, swing, experiment, and learn. He sits in the cheap seats and yells......"incomplete".

Do you wonder when the last time he swung a bat was? at a pitch.

And his posse.......THop?.........from that site they call excellence, that is geared for under 12 and their coaches/dads who've never played.

I hope they are never on trial for teaching baseball...........not enough evidence to convict.

Swing and teach,

Actually my opinions are based on fact. But only if you believe that actual players in game situations comprise "fact".

Swing - I understand your attempt to explain what you perceive as "the way to hit a baseball". I do not agree with absolutes as it regards the swing (with the only exception being "balance")

The reason I feel this way is that I have closely watched thousands of players for about 25 years now. The one absolute I see is that each and every player is different from the next.

Again - I know this may pain you - but IMO there are many different ways to hit a baseball effectively. That is why I do not agree with the "absolutes" we so often read about here - and why I get very suspicious of those who use absolutes in the learning process.

Swing,

Almost forgot - I am sorry you feel that my opinion was insulting. That was not its intent.

My original comments were directed toward your theory - not towards you.

I in no way meant to imply that you were shallow or self absorbed. Quite the contrary - I think you give the subject a great deal of scrutiny and genuinally try to help players. I just dont happen to agree with the theory - thats all.

If you took it that way - I apologize.

He doesn't agree Buster. He can't tell you why. He's been able to see the difference in hitters from the cheap seats but can't tell the similarities.

Translation

When I get hold of daddy I'll let you know.

Teach,

There are no absolutes IMO.

Basics or fundamentals - sure. But even within those there exists a very wide range of alternative approaches.

I know this opinion is difficult for you to accept.

From Ernie Banks to Mel Ott. From Ichiro to Piazza. All different - all very successful.

From Quisenberry to Marichal. From Clemens to Eckersley. All different - all very successful.

IMO - Your desire to be personally superior has blinded you to the reality on the field.

As for the cheap seats - I cant even afford those anymore. LOL

apology accepted thank you...no hard feelings. I am absorbed hopefully not "self". This are has really benefited my son. No matter how he started his hands always cut across the target line( ckcicken winging) until now. We searched long and hard for a working thought or cue.

I asked a coach from NYC in Nashville if he taught the pronation of the top hand he said
" you cannot hit any other way". I does work wonders for many players surely not all.

Swing,
If it has benefited your son - then that is great. You have found something that works for him through your interest and analysis - and his hard work.

My only point is that each player is different. And each one has strengths and weaknesses that may require different approaches to hitting.

I have seen alot of excellent hitters that have some very funky swings. You sit there - and ask yourself - how does he do that? His swing looks horrible.

Then - the kid gets up and hits another one over the wall. LOL

People can look at the swing of a great hitter and not agree as to what the hitter is doing........Swing, Teach, and myself DO agree that there are some things all great hitters have in common from launch to ball contact in their swings........And, we do believe the things they all do, from the launch position to ball contact, should be considered absolutes by those wishing to become great hitters......I know we also agree that hitters have different styles.......Distinguishing between absolutes in technique, and getting them right, and style, is why some people can teach hitting effectively and some can't......Whoever does this the best is the better hitting teacher.....There are some who can't do it at all and are teaching hitting.......That's why I say, buyer beware.....

I think it is important to know that the goal should be to teach a hitter to hit to his potential.......

It's all relative......Good as compared to what?.......The other players on the team?......Or, good as to he has reached his potential?........

Buster

You were the first I heard say bat to forearm at 90, forearm to upper arm at 90, counter until elbow behind belly button.

That helped us improve.

What is the difference between what you're promoting now and that. They seem very similar to me.

Teacherman..

I have been working on just that subject..

Form U rock U... When you start there you are connected to your hip drive with almost zero slack/dead space so when you hip drives your bats comes and your hands launch pretty close to that rear shoulder. The cocked hands represent the most important pendulum. If they are not in position when the shoulders come around there is nothing to hit with...the biggest downfall in LL and easiest fix

As these kids get 18 and popping muscle they have a harder time with a CHP and bat drag becomes an issue( hands leading the elbow). The hands seem farther from the shoulder tip and maybe the stronger arms want to take the swing over. Also if they can hit and they bat in the 3 hole the pitch locations change from generally over the plate to over the black/ off the plate.

Getting a mechanim that gives effortless oppo power helps plate coverage and enhances confidence that they can hit the away pitch just as hard over 2B as anywhere else is the biggest plus. I think you can allow more athletism back in the swing to handle CB and junk pitchers for guys that stay in the game. I think any kid should be able to swing like Garciaparra or Tejada during BP. It really is not hard to learn both. There are 13 yo kids that can hit a driver to a SW, a fade, a hook , from sand, low shots, cut shots,punch shots... I think you would agree ...Baseball players are capable of much , much more with some teaching , knowledge ad practice

The biggest difference to me is the bat head square to pitches middle and away.

The biggest advantage of forming the U and getting the elbow behind the belly button is getting off high quality swings almost everything in any age group but especially the younger kids.

Teacherman:

I am no match for you.

This is a copy of what I posted earlier on the “teaching kids to hit”, thread here. It is the same stuff that I posted in the “Mental game/mental approach” section of Shawn’s new hitting site.

Instead of teaching kids how to slot the back elbow for a year and then later deciding, maybe I shouldn’t teach that or at least use great caution when teaching it, I prefer to teach the fundamentals that seldom change.

Below is a list of the "fundamental" and "complete" hitting skills that I have taught over the last 10 years to hundreds of high school hitters, (many of which advanced to college baseball). Likewise, the past 3 years I have begun teaching them to about 75 middle school hitters (11-14 yo can learn them too). Bare in mind that my players are picked for me, I do not recruit good hitters/base runners/pitchers/infield/outfielders.

If you want to discuss any of these one by one (in the same thread), fine. But if you just want to apply your “critical thinking” skills to confuse/confound me, I don’t want to play. I’m just not as smart as you are. My dad wanted me to be an engineer, but I just didn't like trains!

For slotting the back elbow-See “SWING MECHANICS” -Down Swing (the beginning) & Pull the knob “inside the ball”.


COMPLETE HITTING SKILLS

MENTAL APPROACH-one pitch at a time
· Anticipate and capitalize on the “fastball counts”.
· Anticipate and capitalize on the “fastball situations”.
· Two Strike Swing or “approach”

STRIKE ZONE JUDGEMENT-Hit it where it’s pitched
· Pull “middle-in” strikes
· Hit “Middle-out” strikes to the opposite field
· Addressing the plate and setting up the same way each time

SITUATIONAL HITTING SKILLS-separating the men from the boys
· Hit and Run Play
· Hit behind the lone runner at second base with no outs
· Score the runner from 3b (with infield in).
· Score the runner from 3b (with infield back).

BUNTING-not just for weak hitters
· Bunt direction
· Sacrifice Bunt
· Drag Bunt
· Squeeze bunt
· Push bunt
· Slug/Slash/Butcher Boy bunt

SWING MECHANICS-the common denominators that 95% of professional hitters do (there own way) 95% of the time
· Flexible Grip
· Balanced and athletic stance with slight movement
· The load or move back (when)
· Stride (when)
· Find the ball early (vision)
· Down Swing (the beginning)
· Pull the knob “inside the ball”
· Throw hands late
· Finish-check points

INTANGIBLES-More little things
· Learn the pitcher’s “tendencies”, “pitch patterns”, “favorite out pitches” in the 1st & 2nd inning
· Learn today’s umpire’s strike zone and “tendencies” in the 1st and 2nd inning.
· Role of the on deck batter
· Stand tall when runner steals 3b (RH)
· Shrink strike zone when taking a pitch
· Fishing-out smarting the pitcher.
· Safety-Learn how to get hit with a pitch

THop

Buster,

What is different about what you're saying now. Just add a higher rear elbow to **** the bat a little more?

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