Teacherman...
I watched it through for a while. It is hard to get your elbow higher with the bat in 45 slot. I think he would have to go over his helmet with the bat to get it higher. That has been my point in much of this.
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Chipper01.mpeg
Another side effect is that when the rear elbow slots down from a higher point then I personally think it can add rotary power. Gravity is minus 30 feet per second. Thats a good bit of muscle mass coming down. If the lead elbow leads above the pitch
( which is maybe a flaw in this swing on the gif)
then this momentum can be conserved. If it takes ebergy to raise it then there is energy stored on the return path that can be converted to rotation. This is not all about nothing
You can vary his hand position to out infront of his collar bone and elbow up until it is tipping the bat in front. Its fun to feel the differece in the torque. see tejada
At the least, I would raise the rear elbow at load and raise the lead elbow through contact. At contact that bat should be able to twirl 360 between his arms.
You could shoot a volleyball between Sorianos arms at impact.
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/sorianoside.mpeg
With this and the previous hands inside the ball thread. You guys are worse than pitching guys. Very Jerry Springer - like for a while there. Is it always like this? Good info only goes as far as good attitude.
Swingbuster, I see all that you see in Chipper's swing. Can I ask you this, doesn't he get to a certain point in his swing where his back elbow is slotted in a downward angle and if so, instead of the wrist ****, could a person generate power through core muscles by a negative rotation of the upper body? I ask this because I read your previous statement to mean that this is the most efficient way to generate power. I believe you can generate power in other ways with the negative rotation of the upper body being one. I do recognize that such a system as this makes it harder to get both eyes on the ball but I am offering a different approach as a comparison. I do believe that regardless of which style you chose, there does have to be some wrist ****.
The work of ****** clearly differentiates counter rotation ( whereby you do lose two eye contact and really produce little coil effect) and loading the shoulders around the spine
( whereby you do not move the spine appreciably or lose eye contact and product much coil). I think his view is correct.
Methods to load the shoulders around the spinal axis and create upper body resistance and rotary power is the core of this discussion.
I see the time delay to come back from out of the 45 slot to into the 45 slot( on plane) as beneficial to hip/shoulder separation and torque. ( increasing the x angle)
I see the high elbow as a physically advantageous position to turn away( lead the load) while maintaining eye contact. I see the changing of the relative elbow positions through the swing as an absolute in great rotational mechanics. Lead elbow above(Epstein) and slotting rear elbow as a no teach reaction or result.
Two eyed contact is essential for both methods. It even begins when you set your feet in the box. It must be employed to keep your foot alignment to the throwing arm of the pitcher.
I will email you a long version I wrote for Webbball to be published later.
( whereby you do not move the spine appreciably or lose eye contact and product much coil). I think his view is correct.
Methods to load the shoulders around the spinal axis and create upper body resistance and rotary power is the core of this discussion.
I see the time delay to come back from out of the 45 slot to into the 45 slot( on plane) as beneficial to hip/shoulder separation and torque. ( increasing the x angle)
I see the high elbow as a physically advantageous position to turn away( lead the load) while maintaining eye contact. I see the changing of the relative elbow positions through the swing as an absolute in great rotational mechanics. Lead elbow above(Epstein) and slotting rear elbow as a no teach reaction or result.
Two eyed contact is essential for both methods. It even begins when you set your feet in the box. It must be employed to keep your foot alignment to the throwing arm of the pitcher.
I will email you a long version I wrote for Webbball to be published later.
Swingbuster "Lead elbow above(Epstein) and slotting rear elbow as a no teach reaction or result." I think that this quote is what I'm saying by relaxed. I agree on the negative rotation of the upper body past a certain degree. Coach Cohen at Kentucky also addressed this in one of his presentations. He said that this load can be most effeciently initiated by a knee tuck which allows for the rotation, wrist **** and swing. Unlike other presenters at any clinic, he brought his computer loaded with software to demonstrate this. I think that we've come full circle here and, if I'm reading his handouts correctly, he prefers to not coach that back elbow. Most of what I've posted here is from his sheets although, I've corrupted them slightly to fit the discussion. I know I've posted this before but I belive Coach Cohen is a genuine find for the University of Kentucky and that he is going to do great things.
Oh, I forgot, they eye comments, I believe are essential to good hitting. I've seen good "one eye hitters" but not many.
Oh, I forgot, they eye comments, I believe are essential to good hitting. I've seen good "one eye hitters" but not many.
How can you be relaxed and loaded?
I think he is meaning that the rear elbow is slotting down passively and not referring to load....as I interpret it.
Do see the gif clip as the lead elbow working downward? I missed that before and I think I miss it in my sons swing at times too.
Do see the gif clip as the lead elbow working downward? I missed that before and I think I miss it in my sons swing at times too.
alot depends on the pitch as well. A high pitch will mean less working-up of the lead elbow. Almost flat. On the low pitches, the lead elbow works in conjunction with the back leg turned towards the pitcher and the knee bending to put the weight on the thigh. Its a powerful position.
If the lead elbow works correctly, the rear elbow should slot correctly as a results.
agree?
If the lead elbow works correctly, the rear elbow should slot correctly as a results.
agree?
gomo
"If the lead elbow works correctly, the rear elbow should slot correctly as a results.
agree?"
I agree. If the botom hand is leading the rotation ; the top hand cannot be as active in slotting as I see it.
"If the lead elbow works correctly, the rear elbow should slot correctly as a results.
agree?"
I agree. If the botom hand is leading the rotation ; the top hand cannot be as active in slotting as I see it.
"A high pitch will mean less working-up of the lead elbow. Almost flat."
Not so, GoMo.......The hands stay above the bat barrel.....So, actually, the lead elbow has to work more upwards on high pitches.......
On lower pitches, the front elbow has less bend, if any at all.......This allows the hands and arms to find the lower swing plane.....
Low pitch and straighter front arm......
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/bonds600.mpeg
Not so, GoMo.......The hands stay above the bat barrel.....So, actually, the lead elbow has to work more upwards on high pitches.......
On lower pitches, the front elbow has less bend, if any at all.......This allows the hands and arms to find the lower swing plane.....
Low pitch and straighter front arm......
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/bonds600.mpeg
Another low pitch and straight front arm....
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/mac01.mpeg
High pitch and front elbow working up.....
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/tejadaside.mpeg
Another....
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/thomas_frank.mpeg
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/mac01.mpeg
High pitch and front elbow working up.....
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/tejadaside.mpeg
Another....
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/thomas_frank.mpeg
Teacherman
Why cannot you be relaxed and loaded?
Why cannot you be relaxed and loaded?
You didn't ask me, but.........To be loaded muscles must be stretched......Stretched muscles aren't relaxed.......They're, well, loaded...... 
Relaxed is also a mental aspect--you can be loaded and still be relaxed
TRHit....I understand that you can load and be relaxed and flowing vs. that "tied up" feeling.
BlueDog..explain the barrel above the hands....
BlueDog..explain the barrel above the hands....
"BlueDog..explain the barrel above the hands...."
I didn't say that.....
I didn't say that.....
"Relaxed is also a mental aspect--you can be loaded and still be relaxed"
It is also possible to be in extreme pain and block it out with the mind.......But, the pain is still there......It didn't go away......
To load, you need to stretch muscles......When muscles stretch, tension is created......It's good tension created by coil......Muscles in a relaxed state don't coil.....You cannot uncoil muscles if you don't, first, coil them.....Load/unload.....Coil/uncoil......A coiled spring has tension and uncoils with a fury.....So should a hitter.....
It is also possible to be in extreme pain and block it out with the mind.......But, the pain is still there......It didn't go away......
To load, you need to stretch muscles......When muscles stretch, tension is created......It's good tension created by coil......Muscles in a relaxed state don't coil.....You cannot uncoil muscles if you don't, first, coil them.....Load/unload.....Coil/uncoil......A coiled spring has tension and uncoils with a fury.....So should a hitter.....
BlueDog - if the front elbow is starting around shoulder height, it won't be working itself too far up, assuming you're not swinging at a ball much higher than belly-button level. The elbow is already above the barrel.
On the Bonds600 video, it certainly looks like his lead elbow is much higher than the contact point. And much higher than with Tejada. Bond's is pulling that front elbow up to get on the swing plane of the lower pitch. Tejada has a flatter swing (and therefore less upward pull with the elbow) since its a higher, flatter pitch.
Thanks for the discussion!
On the Bonds600 video, it certainly looks like his lead elbow is much higher than the contact point. And much higher than with Tejada. Bond's is pulling that front elbow up to get on the swing plane of the lower pitch. Tejada has a flatter swing (and therefore less upward pull with the elbow) since its a higher, flatter pitch.
Thanks for the discussion!
Barry Bonds
Good post Bluedog. This clip of Bonds shows how he loads his top hand and arm. As he gets to toe touch, you can see the back elbow draw back towards the 1st base dugout and get that arm in a punching position, which is a coiling/loading of the back arm and shoulder. He then unloads it as he swings at the ball.
More than a bit off topic but look where Bonds rear foot is pointing at contact and where his hips and shoulders are pointing. Bonds is accelerating hard to that point as can be seen by his finish but he doesn't open up much at all at contact compared to many hitters.
A bit more on topic, although I don't think it matters much where the elbow is in the stance as long as it is reasonably relaxed (something a hitch can do very well) I really can't imagine swinging a bat without the elbow loading up. Having a relaxed elbow to start with allows you to get a running start to the elbow loaded position and will be quicker than starting with the elbow fully loaded which leads to tightness. The quickest move is a "bounce" off the loaded position.
CADad, All the good hitters load their back elbow at "toe touch". No good hitters have their elbow loaded until then.
quote:
Originally posted by CADad:
More than a bit off topic but look where Bonds rear foot is pointing at contact and where his hips and shoulders are pointing. Bonds is accelerating hard to that point as can be seen by his finish but he doesn't open up much at all at contact compared to many hitters.
At contact, his rear toe is pointed down and his hips and shoulders have rotated open.
This is a good example of keeping the hands above the barrel of the bat even on high pitches.....
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050125/483/ny16201252234
Also, a good example of the front elbow working up on high pitches.......And, notice the eyes are not on the ball.......Proper use of vision....
Picture probably only good for one day.....
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050125/483/ny16201252234
Also, a good example of the front elbow working up on high pitches.......And, notice the eyes are not on the ball.......Proper use of vision....
Picture probably only good for one day.....
DMAC
You've come so far with your technology skills over the past couple of years! The clips really make your points clear! Thank you. And thanks to the rest of you that post pics and clips.
I do have a question for you and others. My son has a "hitch" very similar to Bonds and I have been trying for two years to get rid of it but it always comes back. In your opinion, should I give up on trying to remove it? He is hitting the ball great, but I am afraid that down the road it may slow him down on faster pitchers.
Thanks.
You've come so far with your technology skills over the past couple of years! The clips really make your points clear! Thank you. And thanks to the rest of you that post pics and clips.
I do have a question for you and others. My son has a "hitch" very similar to Bonds and I have been trying for two years to get rid of it but it always comes back. In your opinion, should I give up on trying to remove it? He is hitting the ball great, but I am afraid that down the road it may slow him down on faster pitchers.
Thanks.
Ross, I would have to see a clip of Boomer to have an opinion on him staying with it or getting rid of it.Last time I saw him, he looked pretty darn good.
Hey, You helped me with the computer "learnen" along with Nick, Sandman and Jason.
Hey, You helped me with the computer "learnen" along with Nick, Sandman and Jason.
bbscout,
At contact his toe is pointed down and toward left center and so are his hips. His shoulders are a bit more open in this clip at contact than in some others I've seen. Fully open would be the toe pointed toward dead or right center and the hips the same. The result is that he's accelerating through the ball rather than dragging through at all.
At contact his toe is pointed down and toward left center and so are his hips. His shoulders are a bit more open in this clip at contact than in some others I've seen. Fully open would be the toe pointed toward dead or right center and the hips the same. The result is that he's accelerating through the ball rather than dragging through at all.
Its very interesting that the site which hosts these videos has the following information on hitting:
Squish the bug
hit with the hands extended
do these people actually look at the clips??!!
Squish the bug
hit with the hands extended
do these people actually look at the clips??!!
goMO, The clips of Bonds were taken by me last Sept and are not from any site.I don't squish bugs, and have no idea what extended hands even means.
Ross,
One way to "cure" Boomdoggy's hitch is to start his hands lower...just below armpit level. In his load, raise them slightly to a position as if he were going to punch someone.
One way to "cure" Boomdoggy's hitch is to start his hands lower...just below armpit level. In his load, raise them slightly to a position as if he were going to punch someone.
bb - I didn't mean your vid. ALot of mlb swing vids are based from youthbaseballcoaching, or something like that (see swingbuster's links).
Hi Rob,
Sounds good, I'll try it and report back. Also, I noticed that his front elbow was creeping forward and wasn't behind his belly-button where I like it. So I had him "pinch" his pec with his front arm and he launched one into the scoreboard... Three of the Majors coaches were out there today scouting and they all saw him (heard him) do it. Boom was beaming.
Sounds good, I'll try it and report back. Also, I noticed that his front elbow was creeping forward and wasn't behind his belly-button where I like it. So I had him "pinch" his pec with his front arm and he launched one into the scoreboard... Three of the Majors coaches were out there today scouting and they all saw him (heard him) do it. Boom was beaming.
