Slow motion video clips -- opinions wanted

It looks like a powerful delivery for such a young kid. How big is he? What does he throw for a breaking pitch?

I really think he is using his lower body well. Even though it is in slo-mo it appears he has a good tempo. I also like his arm action...pretty good looking frosh!

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Originally posted by deemax:
I also like his arm action...pretty good looking frosh!

I hate his arm action. How high his Pitching Arm Side elbow gets. It's too Billy Wagner, Aaron Heilman, or Joel Zumaya for my taste.

Was he taught to do that?

Has he had any elbow or shoulder problems?

At a minimum, it's not at all like the arm action of Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson.

I like this kid, too. I agree with Deemax that his delivery is powerful; his stride and timing are great for a kid that age!

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I hate his arm action. It's too Billy Wagner, Aaron Heilman, or Joel Zumaya for my taste.

Billy Wagner is arguably the best US born pitcher drafted in the last 15 years, and hes still throwing gas....

This kid has a good delivery and his arm action is fine. You base good/bad arm action on the hieght of the elbow...Thats not action.

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At a minimum, it's not at all like the arm action of Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson.

You forgot John Smoltz! Oh...wait, I forgot that you like to leave out successful arm actions that dont match your fake study of this point in arm action("M").

Dont forget RJ is on the DL, and Maddux (I love Maddux) now throws 83 when he used to throw as high as 95....Smoltz and Wagner still bring it.

See if you can keep him closed just a bit longer. Looks like a BIG boy!

Hey everyone, thanks for the comments so far! I don't know much about mechanics myself and it seems there are many schools of thought out there.

deemax:

He is 5'10" about 150 lbs. He may look a little bigger since the camera is near the mound! He also throws a two-seam FB, a good curveball (probably breaks 2-to-8) and a slider. He's had trouble developing a changeup, and has played around with a splitter some.

thepainguy:

Is his arm action the main problem in your opinion? Do his lower-body mechanics look alright to you?

He had some instruction this winter, and with his HS JV coaches this spring, but he says he is doing what feels natural now. I found a video of him from the HS season and the arm motion looks the same.

So far no arm problems. He throws long toss regularly and says he doesn't get sore too often.

I'm with PG on this one. He opens his shoulders much too early. At landing, they are quite open.

quote:

Originally posted by elarsen21:
Is his arm action the main problem in your opinion? Do his lower-body mechanics look alright to you?

It's the most obvious thing.

His lower body doesn't look bad, but it's hard to tell since he's so small in the frame. I will say that I think I see his hips rotating ahead of his shoulders, which is good.

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Originally posted by PGStaff:
See if you can keep him closed just a bit longer.

The way to do that is to have him start his hips forward toward home plate a bit sooner. (He currently doesn't start forward until the peak of the knee lift or after.) Opening up early is a timing problem. Starting forward sooner will get him into foot strike quicker thus taking away the time he has to open up early and be over-rotated at release. In other words, he'll only have time to get squared up to the target at release.

One thing I would suggest he clean up is his glove action, in the first clip it ends up down near his knee. Overall looks pretty darn good !

I wouldn't change much at all. He looks good. Just keep having him throw the cr@p out of the ball.

What's his velocity at?

Thanks guys. Your input is very much appreciated!

PGStaff / dm59 / Roger: Good point about "opening up" early, and thank you for the explanation. Seems like he could add more speed by having the upper body rotate later and more quickly.

Yankeelvr: Thanks for pointing out the glove action. I take it he should finish with his glove up higher, by his chest?

RobV: The good news is he feels comfortable and doesn't have soreness. He was throwing 73 on a Stalker radar gun this past winter, but says he is throwing a fair amount harder now. I won't speculate though!

Sounds like his velocity is fairly normal for his height and age depending on if that's a working velocity or max velocity. Typically he'd be up a few mph between winter and now. Our five 15yo JV pitchers all threw between 78 and 82 this spring with some locating at those velocities and some overthrowing to hit those velocities. A couple of the ones who overthrew their fastballs also had decent breaking pitches so their fastballs were effective at that level despite the poor location.

His mechanics seem decent. I wouldn't get too worked up about the mechanics. It seemed like he might be cutting his follow through a bit short to try to maintain fielding position or head position. That could effect velocity a bit, but there are also a lot of MLB pitchers who do it that way.

elarsen,

I agree with the front side comments. I think that can be easily accomplished by firming up his glove hand and not allowing it to flail down by his knee.

Overall, he looks solid.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
I hate his arm action. How high his Pitching Arm Side elbow gets. It's too Billy Wagner, Aaron Heilman, or Joel Zumaya for my taste.

In case anyone's wondering, it's how he does this...



...that makes me nervous.

None of the greats do or did this.

Not to chg the subject but can't help but comment on deemax's reply re: pg's analysis. DM you're kind of a funny guy. What's your basis for pitching analyis? Whether u agree or not, PG's done a lot of in depth study of pitching mechanics, associated science, and video review of MLB pitchers. What have u done that we should value your opinion? Instead of being critical of another poster, how 'bout just stating ur analysis and basis? What do u mean "fake study." PG has researched this. I don't know if he's right or not. That's not the point. But he can tell you exactly why he believes what he does. Can you do that in more detail than you saw it on ESPN? BTW, Smoltz is bringing it. He also missed over a year due to TJ. And BW has lost just about as much velocity as GM. Both throw slower than they did. BW started higher.

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What have u done that we should value your opinion?

I pitched, scouted, coached, even worked for an agent ....Do you really want my resume?..Just mine ....I guess Im honored.

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What's your basis for pitching analyis?

Study, passion, proof, comparison, and history....Whats yours?

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What do u mean "fake study."

When a study omits facts for the sake of making a bias unscientific opinion appear accurate it is fake IMO.

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Can you do that in more detail than you saw it on ESPN?

This is a neat quote. What does it mean? Is what I see on TV inaccurate, or am I spending to much time watching baseball tonight (I miss Harold Reynolds)? Thanks.

Thanks to everyone for the great comments. It's nice to have outside perspectives.

CADad: Good to know he's similar to the CA kids in velocity. Lots of talent out there. What velocity do they usually throw as HS seniors?

thepainguy: Interesting. Are you saying the elbow should come back rather than up (as Wagner is shown here)?

Don't want to start a debate in here, just trying to understand!

Rock Dad,

If you consider "study" of a bunch stills collected from the web a valid way to obtain pitching knowledge you and TPG should get together. Anyone who believes that their way is the only way should be avoided, it just isn't so. Many tire of TPG's antics, we all know where his theory is on display and don't need to turn every pitching thread into a Maddux vs the world discussion. While I don't agree with everything deemax says at least he has real world experience to back up his thoughts, TPG, not so much.

elarsen,
No way to predict what they will throw as seniors. My guess is that one or two will reach high 80s, one or two will reach mid 80s and one or two will stay low 80s, but who knows?

Our school currently has 3 high 80s and 1 mid 80s senior. 1 of the high 80s types has arm issues and probably won't pitch much if at all. That's probably a bit above average for our league in terms of velocity although there'll be one or two stronger pitching staffs in the league and each team usually has at least one mid to high 80s or 90ish type.

That is not typical for a HS league even in CA. We're in one of the top leagues in the top division in SoCal.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Rock Dad,

If you consider "study" of a bunch stills collected from the web a valid way to obtain pitching knowledge you and TPG should get together. Anyone who believes that their way is the only way should be avoided, it just isn't so. Many tire of TPG's antics, we all know where his theory is on display and don't need to turn every pitching thread into a Maddux vs the world discussion. While I don't agree with everything deemax says at least he has real world experience to back up his thoughts, TPG, not so much.

If you followed my work, you'd know that I've moved beyond stills.

Check out the multiple frame by frame analyses of clips the I have on this page...

- Professional Pitcher Analyses

Also, while my study admittedly has its limitations, it's more than anyone else is doing.

quote:

Originally posted by elarsen21:
thepainguy: Interesting. Are you saying the elbow should come back rather than up (as Wagner is shown here)?

If you look at the mechanics of...

- Greg Maddux
- Tom Glavine
- Nolan Ryan
- Roger Clemens
- Randy Johnson

...and many other great pitchers, their Pitching Arm Side elbow never gets that high. Usually, it never gets above the level of their shoulders after their break their hands. Instead, their PAS elbows always stays below the level of their shoulders like this...











I have more photos (and videos) like these on my page on...

- Scapular Loading

If your brother starts to have shoulder or elbow problems, then his high PAS elbow is the first place I'd look.

tpg

quote:

Also, while my study admittedly has its limitations, it's more than anyone else is doing.

Its not a crusade... My issues with your study is how unbelievably bias it is. You seem to have a vendetta against a scap load ("M") that roughly ten percent (debatable) of all pitchers make. Roughly ten percent of hall of fame pitchers scap loaded with an "M", and I dont know how to access this but I bet of all the pitchers on the DL roughly ten percent scap load with the "M". Do you see where im going with this?

You picked the least common form of scap loading as a culprit in injuries. When one guy ends up on the DL with this scap load you shout from the rafters that his load is the culprit...when 9 more guys go on the DL that dont make this load you say nothing.

Should you teach the M position...not IMO, but should you take away the way someone has been loading that way for years?...no. IMO, if you really want to see a pitcher hurt his arm dramatically change the way they scap load.

quote:

Originally posted by Rock Dad:
DM you're kind of a funny guy. What's your basis for pitching analyis?

Rock Dad. I'm assuming you're speaking about another DM.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Its not a crusade... My issues with your study is how unbelievably bias it is. You seem to have a vendetta against a scap load ("M") that roughly ten percent (debatable) of all pitchers make. Roughly ten percent of hall of fame pitchers scap loaded with an "M", and I dont know how to access this but I bet of all the pitchers on the DL roughly ten percent scap load with the "M". Do you see where im going with this?

There are a number of problems with the assumptions you are making.

First, the 10 percent numbers are SWAGs, so you can't base anything on them. I haven't determined the actual percentages and haven't yet figured out how to do so.

Second, HOF membership isn't a great criterion since it doesn't take into account the length of one's careeer. A better criterion would be number of years in the big leagues or innings pitched. Something else that more directly correlated to durability would be better. You also have to rule out pitchers from before a certain time period (e.g. no careers that started before 1940) since it would be too hard to get video of them pitching.

Let me process the Lahman database and see if I can come up with something more compelling.

Rock Dad a smart lawyer once said don't ask a question unless you know the answer. I guess you don't know who DeeMax is.

I don't think PG ever claimed to be knowlegeable about pitching in fact he has claimed the opposit.

Pain the biggest limitation in your so called research is you. As everyone knows you have conclusions well in advance of your research. You are trying to fit injured pitchers into your theory. Number 1 there isn't enough samples to validate any conclusion.

quote:

Second, HOF membership isn't a great criterion since it doesn't take into account the length of one's careeer.

You have to play 10 years to be eligible for the HOF.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

quote:

Second, HOF membership isn't a great criterion since it doesn't take into account the length of one's careeer.

You have to play 10 years to be eligible for the HOF.

There are many (hundreds of?) guys with careers longer than 10 years.

What I'm interested are guys with 20+ year careers. That way you're enough standard deviations from the mean to be interesting and possibly statistically significant.

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What I'm interested are guys with 20+ year careers. That way you're enough standard deviations from the mean to be interesting and possibly statistically significant.

My money will be on 10% of the pitchers with 20yr careers scap loaded with the "M"....just like the 10% who load this way overall.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
My money will be on 10% of the pitchers with 20yr careers scap loaded with the "M"....just like the 10% who load this way overall.

Please back up your 10 percent numbers with hard evidence.

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Please back up your 10 percent numbers with hard evidence.

10% is my estimate on how many guys scap load with the M. You can argue it if you want, but i bet its close.

What do you estimate it to be?

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Please back up your 10 percent numbers with hard evidence.

Hello....Kettle! Are you there Kettle? You sure are black.

sincerely,
Pot

Could we refer to "thepainguy" as TPG rather than PG?

Nothing against anyone, but just trying to eliminate any confusion and potential controversy.

Thanks

PG.....Staff

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Could we refer to "thepainguy" as TPG rather than PG?

Nothing against anyone, but just trying to eliminate any confusion and potential controversy.

Thanks

hahahahahaha

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
You talk about others assumptions---what are you doing by reading "reports" from many non baseball guys, just like yourself---cyberspace theorists is what I call them---no basis--no substance---"I think" is all you can say

Yes these guys are not baseball guys (in that they aren't pros). However, they are world-renowned orthopedic surgeons and many are team doctors.

I think they know what they are talking about.

My son's doc was a team doc and he says the exact opposite to what you say. He also has clients that you use in your pictures to try and prove your points.
I guess you select what you want to believe.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Have you gotten your son a real coach/instructor yet?

TR, This is pretty bush.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Have you gotten your son a real coach/instructor yet?

TR, This is pretty bush.

Agreed. Leave the kid out of it. Debate the issues.