So what is OK in recruiting Select Players

KD,

Good question. In a perfect world, teams would retain their players that are struggling and help them develop, and the players that are good enough to play for any team would remain dedicated to that team.

In my world, neither exists. Teams are only going to keep the top performers. Kids need to do what is best for them: play somewhere they play good competition and yet play most of the innings. Teams have the right to cut players, therefore, players have the right to look elsewhere...it has to be a two-way street.

Bottom line, IMO players are free agents at the end of each season.

Very good question!!

quote:

Or, is every player a free agent after every season?

Sometimes "loyalty" is a one-way street for EITHER or both Coaches & players.

My view has been from end of HS season to end of July, unless other arrangements are made.
Sometimes players are recruiting another team, as well. All "marriages are not bliss".

I know this is a controversial subject but I don't think it's horrific to recruit players off of other teams -- one's loyalty is a personal matter -- and between a family and the current coach/manager/organization. Families have to do what they think is best for their sons. When another coach calls and says, "we like your son and his ability -- we could really use him to make our team stronger", that should be viewed as a compliment....not an under-handed plot. If you like your situation, simply say, "no thanks, we have it nice here". Isn't it quite hypocritical for teams to become upset when their kids are "recruited away" when they too are taking steps to improve their group?

"Tell that coach to stay away from my players!!! -- at least until we have a chance to replace them!"

Having said that, I prefer the open tryout approach. Those who show up are demonstrating their availability.

Life is too short to carry grudges against coaches, players, families, or organizations. I'm glad to see that many of today's rivalries are build on mutual respect. It hasn't always been this way.

what about teams that recruit entire teams ??

Does that happen???

In my opinion once the season end it is ok to contact other players. The contracts are a one year commitment and its really a honesty system. Whats wrong with calling a player at year end and inform them if they are looking to do something different next year please give this organization a call. I agree with Panther dad, "Life is too short to carry grudges against coaches, players, families, or organizations. I'm glad to see that many of today's rivalries are build on mutual respect. It hasn't always been this way." I have been trying to get PD kid since he was 13 years old. Now I finally have him in the organization. When I talked to PD son his coach wanted what was best for his kid and it was not about winning games as a lot of coaches view it. His coach was more than accommodating to let him go. However PD at the time was very happy with his son's development and did not feel he needed to make a move and I respected that decision. That said a lot about his son's coach and the organization he represented.

KellerDad,

Now you have to take the blame for getting me off the sidelines. (And sooner or later someone will want to know who to blame. ) This is a great topic that needs more open discussion. This is my first post so by way of introduction let me say that I’ve been reading the site off and on for a couple years and finally registered during the flame war that started when Brett and Monk signed with TCU. In the end I decided that wasn’t the best place for a new member to jump in. Now that the flames have died down I will tell everyone that I am a Keller dad too. But at our house we also bleed purple and we are glad to have Brett and Monk in the TCU family. Now back to the current topic…

I think every player is a free agent after every season unless they signed a contract for the whole year. They should honor their contract but when it ends why shouldn’t the kids have the same options as the team? That doesn’t mean that I think players should change teams every season. Far from it! But coaches that get upset about someone contacting “their players on their team” are completely missing the point. Select baseball is about player development. Not the coaches. I understand that coaches can have many reasons (personal or even professional) for being attached to a player but when it starts to be about the coaches needs instead of the players, something has gone very wrong. Unfortunately I speak from experience. The details are not important but I hope the coach involved learned something from it. Nobody should have to endure what my son went through.

I agree with Panther Dad. Hardcore selling will just cause problems. It is enough to let the player (and parents) know that you would like to talk with them if they are considering making a change. In my experience a lot of the initial conversations get started between the players anyway. They generally know who is looking to make a change long before the coaches do.

Good kids tend to stay with good teams because they are getting what they need. If a coach is having problems with turnover it’s probably not the kids fault. Good coaches recruit a great team made of players. Not a team made of great players. The difference is very significant in the long run. I saw a team this summer where at least a third of the team played the same two positions (third and catcher). Everyone was upset because they were playing out of position and couldn’t win. No player development or wins. Of course players left the team. Gosh, who could have seen that coming?

Even well managed teams have some turnover because the bottom of the roster always wants more playing time and the best kids have lots of options. But turnover is not necessarily bad. It can prepare players for what they will see at every level of the game from high school on up to The Show.

The bottom line is that these kids are free agents and most of them expect to be treated that way. That means their current coach needs to listen to them (and their parents) or risk losing them. There is nothing wrong with a recruiting coach making a tactful offer. The current coach should act in the players best interest and sometimes that means letting go if they don’t except your counter offer. And if you get an offer but decide to stay with your current team remember the words of Timothy Leary. Don’t be rude and “Just say no!” Please say, “No, thank you.”

Bleed Purple? From Keller?

Mike?

This is a great topic. Line Drive - welcome to the hsbbweb What's this, we now have Keller Dads? or is it Keller Dad Squared

Great posts so far. I know that I was adament that once a committment to a team was made for that particular summer that you had to stay with that team. We found that some of the recruiting attempted to get you to switch from a team that you already committed to. Some of these were offers to better teams and they would put the pressure on my son. He didn't see the harm in it, but I did. I believe there are principles higher than playing on the most competitive team de jour.

As far as changing teams between seasons, I agree with the sympathies expressed here but there are other circumstances as well. When my son was 15 going on 16, he got to play for an 18u legion team which he was thrilled to be on. After the summer, all the players from the team graduated and went to college. The following year, the coach asked my son to come back and be a leader for the boys coming up. My son wanted to switch and I would not have stood in his way. I merely asked him, how did you feel when you got to play up? Did you learn something from the older boys? The coach was asking for the player to show some loyalty so there would be some continuity. I believe it was reasonable for the coach to ask this of my son because of the opportunity he gave him the year before. My son did stay with the legion team and yes he was frustrated at times because they were not as good as the year before. I believe he learned something valuable however even though the team was not as good.

I kind of agree with Line Drive to an extent. But what I have seen is that it is really the parents alot of the times who move their kids around.

I honestly think alot of the parents get a thrill out of being "recruited". They are easy to spot - they are the ones who always use "we" when talking about their son's team moves or recruiting opportunities. Alot of times it is really kind of weird how some of these parents "get off" to having their son in demand.

crawdad,

Agreed, and to expand, it is my preference to remain on a team if my son wants to and the coaches are teaching the game to the boys.

Unfortunately, too many parents have their child on multiple teams and they do "get-off" on their child being in demand. They won't ever say no to guest playing and they end up cheating their original team. That is the problem.

Fulfilling your season committment and looking for a possible better situation is never a problem, IMO. Look at it like a job. I may like my job, but if something comes along that may help me out developmentally or financially, I would be crazy not to look at it.

My son is fortunate that he will be playing for the same team (DBAT) for the fifth year this coming summer. I think that is due in part to the fact that we DO NOT operate under the assumption that the "grass is always greener on the other side of the hill." Those that do are always looking for a perceived better situation and often seem perpetually unhappy.

Of course there are legitimate reasons for players to move on from teams and my son has had his share of new teammates along the way.

I just wish parents would take a deep breath and realize this is simply summer baseball and keep it all in perspective. As a former coach myself, I find no fault with coaches trying to improve their teams. It is up to the players and parents to make sure they have their son's best interests at heart.

No Keller Dad Squared, just another dad in Keller who has seen these kids play. As for bleeding purple, my older son goes to TCU (but doesn't play baseball anymore). The younger son is still at KHS so we can bleed blue and gold as well. It's a good trick but I'll bet Frogdawg can already do it too.

I agree that some kids (and their parents) are never happy and others get a buzz from being recruited. But it seems like the story on them gets around quickly and pretty soon most of them are on the outside looking in. I also agree that it is the parents job to look out for their kids best interest. I didn't mean to imply that the coaches judgement should replace their's.

I have been a coach and a parent in the stands. I think there is plenty of room for improvement on both sides of the fence. BTW my son and the coach I mentioned are on good terms again. Rebuild those bridges when you can. Life is too short not too.

Crawdad -- although I agree that parents' egos are stroked through all of this, I disagree on your approach to leaving all (or most) baseball decisions to the kids (which you have expressed on several occasions). Perhaps your son is advanced to the point where he can determine the best situation for himself and your family ----- knows where he should play and who will be where to see him. But most kids aren't at that point at ages 16 and 17 -- my son can't even get himself to the ball park alone yet (driver's license pending). Perhaps your kid works to earn money for the $1500 team fees and the $zillion travel costs -- but most kids don't at this age. Yes, it is MY investment in his future. And perhaps your son knows exactly where he wants to go to school and what he will study when he gets there (baseball or no baseball). Many don't -- they still need guidance. So, the idea that all parents should back off and let their sons decide where to play and with whom is somewhat irresponsible in my opinion, and unrealistic. And, for the most part, other teams don't call the kids -- they call the parents. Having a part in these decisions isn't necessarily a sign of meddling. Do parents stay too involved at times? ---- of course! ---- but there is no sure-tried formula for success.

I don't mean this as a personal attack on you, cd -- we agree on most subjects. But I always consider it a bit of an insult when you imply that "my way" doesn't allow my son the freedom to make choices, to grow up, etc. I just don't see it that way. If we allow most 16 yr olds to experience the recuriting process alone then many coaches will be waiting at the first practice to see which kids show up.

Should kids be involved in all of this -- certainly! Should they become more independent when it comes to communicating with coaches (and adults in general) -- oh yeah! But I believe there is an appropriate balance.

-PD

PD
Scenario-
Your son has the talent to play on an above average team. All his friends are on average team.
Some maybe above average, some may not be. Since as you state it is "MY investment" do you force your 16 or 17 yearold to play on a team that some or most of his friends cannot or do not want to play on and he is unhappy and does not perform well, or do you let him play with his his friends and have fun and maybe perform better. To me, a kid will perform better and enjoy it more if indeed he is having fun and plays where he wants to. This to me is the problem with the parents today. They make the decision for the kids because of the "INVESTMENT" or the hope they get something in return, scholarship or contract. As you have stated before if they are talented enough, someone will know it or see it. What happen to the days where kids had fun playing with thier friends and did not have the pressure of the parents. PD I'm not saying your son is one of these kids, but I promise you there are many who play on a team picked by their parents and lose interest in baseball because of it. Then what happens to the young man and the "INVESTMENT".
Just a different way to look at it!

I've never stated that I make the baseball decisions. In your scenario, we would talk about the pros and cons of both situations and let him decide. My son would probably choose playing with his friends if that also includes the opportunity to get better, playing the positions where he projects. Personally speaking, he has had chances to "play up" and we have remained in his age group -- because of friendships (his and mine) and our overall satisfaction with his opportunities.

I hope you don't view the word "investment" as inappropriate. We make all kinds of investments -- time, money, trust, etc. And, I probably speak for most here (fellow baseball "nuts")....I do it because it is a large part of our family. We love it -- future scholarship or not. My middle son recently quit baseball to move on with other aspects of his life. I have no regrets about the "investment" we made for him.

I've never "forced" PantherSon to do anything when it comes to baseball.

As you suggest, having fun remains very very important -- perhaps the single-most important ingredient in all of this for us.

Concerning which team to choose when having an option, I have to agree with PD. There needs to be some guidance from the parents, when making the selection. This is no different than deciding where to live based on school districts, sending your kid to private school or public, helping with college choices, etc. While I don't necessarily consider baseball to be as important as these issues, it is our responsibility as parents to help our children make the best decisions in all cases.

Concerning recruiting in general, I don't see anything wrong with it as long as it is done in off season. The problem comes not from the recruiting but from indecision, not being honest, and making the decision too personal.
Take it for what it is; the place your son will play the great game of baseball for the next few months; nothing more nothing less.

If your son is asked to play for some team and the decision can't be made just say so. If he is interested in looking at other teams, just say so. If the coach calling you keeps pressing tell him to ease up. If a coach starts badmouthing other teams you are considering tell him to not call again.

In all actuality there is always more than one team that would be a good fit.

quote:

Originally posted by honest and unbiased:

Take it for what it is; the place your son will play the great game of baseball for the next few months; nothing more nothing less.

Sorry, not even close. Please read KellerDad's post about Bobby Short.

Kellerdad and his family were blessed to have come in contact with an extraordinary man. I believe God places special people in our lives often. Sometimes we miss them along the way. Other times we find them when we most need them. Our family's best friends are baseball friends -- several are no longer associated with the current team. But I don't think that necessarily changes the subject of this post. Honest & unbiased's point (to me) is....view each option as an opportunity, find positives in your circumstances, and maintain perspective.

Panther Dad,
My point exactly. I'm not sure why anybody would take it any differently?

Because the process can seem cold at times.

I guess it can be if you let it become that way.

H&U Son and I have always considered the various players, teams, and families as really one big extended family of ours regardless of the team he played on. His closest friends are the ones made playing select baseball and are on a variety of teams. I think he enjoys time between games talking to opposing players, parents, and coaches, time during games talking to opposing players and coaches, time in the dugout with his team, etc. as much as playing the game. In addition, many of his best times have come while guest playing with various teams from time to time.

He can go 6 months, 9 months, a year, or longer and not see or talk to some of these kids.But the minute he sees them on the baseball field it is like he saw them yesterday and nothing has changed.

Maybe we have just been lucky that the recruiting process between teams has not been a cold process for us. I would like to think that my son's approach to the game and the friends he has made have had something to do with it however.

Yeah well -- you guys have probably made a few people "angry" along the way, but I know you've done what you believe is best for your son --- and you get to go through it all again one day soon. Just think, you'll make no mistakes the 2nd time around!

From my limited perspective, your son has prospered from his many experiences -- as a player and as a young man. I always like running into to him between games. You guys have done a nice job with him.

I understand those that have a bad taste for the "recruiting process". Feelings are often hurt. I think most coaches understand it -- and as mentioned earlier, it seems more "couth" today with open tryouts, amiable feelings between organizations, etc. We have been approached by 2-3 teams over the years and all involved have been understanding when we decided to remain with our current group.

quote:

Originally posted by Panther Dad:
Kellerdad and his family were blessed to have come in contact with an extraordinary man. I believe God places special people in our lives often. Sometimes we miss them along the way. Other times we find them when we most need them. Our family's best friends are baseball friends -- several are no longer associated with the current team. But I don't think that necessarily changes the subject of this post. Honest & unbiased's point (to me) is....view each option as an opportunity, find positives in your circumstances, and maintain perspective.

Great post.

PD,
Yeah, I'm sure we have made a few people "angry" over the years, but we all got over it.

Same to you concerning your son. You have done almost as good a job with him as I have with mine. (Just kidding!)

See you in the spring.

Oops! I wasn’t trying to take a shot at Honest and Unbiased. I sometimes forget the written word lacks the tone and inflection, and therefore the clearer intent, of the spoken word. I guess that is what these are for and I should have used one.

He was right on the mark when he said, “In all actuality there is always more than one team that would be a good fit.”

KellerDad’s story included two coaches. The first nearly drove his son from baseball at an early age. The second enriched their family’s life for years to come. That is why I don’t think this decision should be taken lightly.

Line Drive,
Thanks, I didn't think you were. I am usually pretty straight to the point and also fall into the tone and reflection and clearer intent quagmire when writing posts at times.

One thing to consider in this, your select coach can be as important if not more than your high school coach when you enter the recruiting process. So far we have been fortunate to have good experiences for the last 2-3 years. Other teams have called, however you must weigh can they really offer you a better deal, maybe...maybe not.

L-toss makes a good point. The select coach IS more important than the HS coach when it comes to recruiting. I have had many conversations with disgruntled parents who feel the HS coach doesn't do enough to profile their kids.

The job of the HS coach is to win games and create a program with a reputation for producing good players. The player can then use that exposure to better position himself for recruitment. Also realize the Colleges recruit more in the Summer and Fall when the players are with their select teams.

As stated already in this post a good Select Coach and Program can make or break your chances to be seen and considered.

Players and parents who are waiting for the HS Coach to gain exposure are missing out. We play in a top tier HS program and our coach plays a very small role in the recruiting process and yet he is considered a very good coach, and for a good reason, he wins games!

If it's okay with you guys I'm going to skip telling my son's high school coach that he doesn't matter.

Ballgame -- although I don't totally disagree with your premise, the subject of this thread involves one select team recruiting players from another. I suppose an interesting twist on the subject might be high school coaches that "recruit" players away from select programs. I KNOW, I KNOW! -- but it happens.

Line drive -- good idea -- I prefer to stand on the idea that my son's HS coach does matter. He mattered to both of my college-age baseball-playing sons. Of course, Ballgame was not implying that he is not important -- and we all agree that all coaches can play a role in the process of finding a good situation for our sons at the next level.

I think a blanket statement that high school coaches aren't as important as select coaches in the recruitment process shows alot of misinformation as to what makes the recruitment process work.

First of all, HS and select coaches are very important in the recruitment process. To not utilize both is not very smart. In my son's case his HS coach was a high level D-1 player himself who has alot of contacts at several of the Big 12 schools. Same thing for his select coach - D-1 and minor league player with alot of contacts that are DIFFERENT than the HS coach. That is where the strength is - two coaches with different contacts.

There is another source of information that scouts and recruiters use ALOT that few parents know about - umpires. If you don't think that umpires have alot to do with gaining exposure for players than you are mistaken. This is especially true with pitchers. This is very important that your son knows the role that umpires can play in talking him up to scouts and recruiters.

Anyway my son is very lucky to have had good select coaches that have helped him tremendously over the years in gaining exposure. In addition his HS head coach and pitching coach have numerous D-1 contacts that they use. And in addition our local umpiring association members have always been complementary towards his pitching performances and on-field demeanor whenever they have been called.

cd -- going point concerning the umps -- something few consider, I'm sure -- they see the kids perform from a unique perspective.

LD- You missed the point. My son has a great relationship with his HS coach and so do I. There is a great deal of respect between us.

I speak and share only from my experiences. Everyone has their own spin and different experiences on the same issues. I certaintly respect that.

I have learned a great deal from reading other's opinions I don't necessarily agree with. That's why we read and respond. It makes it interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by BALLGAME:
LD- You missed the point. My son has a great relationship with his HS coach and so do I. There is a great deal of respect between us.

I speak and share only from my experiences. Everyone has their own spin and different experiences on the same issues. I certaintly respect that.

I have learned a great deal from reading other's opinions I don't necessarily agree with. That's why we read and respond. It makes it interesting.

Ballgame - you stated that "The select coach IS more important than the HS coach when it comes to recruiting." You may have meant YOUR son's select coach was more important to recruiting than YOUR son's HS coach but that is not what you said. You stated a broad generalization that is simply not true based on your son's experience.

I feel sorry for anyone who has a son playing for a HS coach who is not actively involved in the recruiting process of their son. That is NOT how it should be.

We should take college recruiting to a new topic.

quote:

Originally posted by Panther Dad:
We should take college recruiting to a new topic.

I'm just glad to see that there are more than 3 posts a day on the Texas forum. Was making my mid days at work hard to take. Guess I should actually go get some work done so I can pay for this summer select season and my son's new bat.

But that's a whole 'nother topic.

Fair enough Crawdad. Please add to the front of my post "It has been my experience that............"

Semantics, President Clinton was good at that.

KD- you're right this is addictive. I'm going back to work!

quote:

Originally posted by BALLGAME:

LD- You missed the point. My son has a great relationship with his HS coach and so do I. There is a great deal of respect between us.

I knew what you meant. I was just having a little fun. Can you imagine some overzealous and under informed freshman parent demanding to know why their son was cut from the team before the season even started. After all his “select” coach thinks the kid is a starter and that team just placed third in the AA Halloween Invitational at Wide Spot in the Road Ballpark. And high school coaches don’t matter anyway. It was on HSBBW so it has to be true!

The mental image made me laugh. Maybe that’s why my wife keeps asking me if I remembered to take my medication…