So what would YOU do?

At 130, I would have walked out to the mound and removed him myself, and the coach could have had me arrested if he wanted to!

Why didn't the boy say something?

Let me say this to you parents ---you come into my dugout or even try and talk to me during the game you are in a load of trouble with me---walk on to the field and the local police will be brought in


MIDLO you will go to the mound at Wake and remove your son?

There is a diplomatic way to achieve the same results that Midlo Dad suggest without offending a controlling coach like TRHit. I would get a message to my son during that game (one way or another) to tell his coach that he couldn’t throw anymore. If it were at the high school level or below I would talk to the coach prior to the next game (one on one) and explain why I was putting a pitch count on my son. This actually happened to my son as a senior in HS and I did talk to the coach ---- I bought a pitch counter and explained the pitch count limitations to the coach. He was red faced and very argumentative at first. I apologized and explained I had no other options. I didn’t threaten but I did explain that I would pull him from the team unless he stayed within the pitch count and recovery schedule. My son had already signed an NLI and I contacted his college coach prior to the talk. He said to pull him from the HS team if need be.
If this happened at college I would only talk to my son and explain the dangerous situation he was in. If he wanted to address this with his coach then that would be his call ---- Not mine. You can transfer in college.
Fungo

If a coach won't remove his head from his rear and above all look out for the health of the player's on his team, is it not the responsibility of the parent to do so? Maybe it's different at the college level where a player is on scholarship, I don't know. However, it's irresponsible on the coach's part to:

1)not know how many pitches his pitcher has thrown
2)apparently not care how many pitches he's thrown

TR, I would hope this situation would never arise with a well informed, responsible coach, but if it did, the parent not only should but in my mind has no choice but to say something. Although the coach should take accountability for the well-being of the player, the parent has the ultimate responsibility to be sure their kid isn't put in a dangerous situation.

I'll agree, in general parents have no place in the dugout. But informing the coach that your son is reaching a point that is proven to be dangerous and irresponsible is not stepping over the line. If a coach has a problem with that, then a new coach is probably needed (if that's an option).

First of all the pitch count situation will never happen in our dugout---there are is always someone keeping pitch count and in most cases it is me---and we talk with all our pitchers after every inning as to how they feel and what they think they have left in the tank---we also take into consideration the weather---in warm weather things are different than in chilly damp weather.

Fungo-- a coach has to be controlling and steer the ship the proper way---the inmates do not run the asylum--the warden does-- and very firmly -and our parents know the rules---we treat our players with respect as maturing young men and we want our parents to just sit back and root the team on as a unit not just their son. We are a family.

quote:

we talk with all our pitchers after every inning as to how they feel and what they think they have left in the tank---we also take into consideration the weather---in warm weather things are different than in chilly damp weather.

We have always had coaches do the same.
160 pitches in 8 innings doesn't make sense. How accurate were you or was that an estimate ?

quote:

We have always had coaches do the same.
160 pitches in 8 innings doesn't make sense. How accurate were you or was that an estimate ?

I personally didn't hold the counter. A former pro, who is also Director of Pitching at Diamond Baseball Jacksonville did. We were playing the school that brought the world Tim Tebow and it has a quality program, they were doing a live webcast of the game and the announcer was aghast at the 120 mark when he was ran out to the 7th..he may have been in the hi 150's.
I made sure his coach was aware when he reached the 120 mark (Without fanfare or entering his dugout..I let one of the players know and asked him to relay it to the coach and saw him do it), which was going into the 7th (His coach had him pitching backwards...starting offspeed, after about the third he was really started 2-0 on most every count (This year, this is his 3rd CG and the only one in which he's thrown more than 80 pitches).
TR, I acknowledge the primacy of all coaches, my son, wasn't coming off the hill unless he got the hook (If I walked out there, the world would have seen my son and I scrapping it out on the infield...until the cops hauled me off)..I don't believe any pitcher who is a great competitor will ever want to come off...he, after the game said he could have thrown the rest of the night. This morning...after we iced him last night and he ran 2 miles...(his coach didn't even ask if he wanted, needed..had an opinion about ice)...thinks that he'll feel it tomorrow...but said he felt good, but did take 2 advil to keep down inflammation (He's got a couple more miles of running today at practice..this is his approach not his coaches who wouldn't have any compunction about having him play ss for infield today if he was allowed...my son has commited to me that he won't be throwing today no matter what).
Believe me it is not outside of the realm of possibility that he'll never throw another pitch for this school...and if it happens it will be without comment or drama.
He has a huge future ahead...he was personally scouted by the Rockies at Jupiter this Sept. and has been pursued by Clemson, Miami, Southern Indiana...We believe he'll end up at the University of North Florida (At least if their pitching coach, who has been a mentor to him has anything to say in it).
Like I mentioned in the op I have my thoughts on the subject and have discussed it with his personal trainer (The guy that caught Greg Maddux's first Cy when he was with the Cubs). We have settled on an approach, I think, but I was very curious as to how this forum would address it...I really thank you all for the responses.

TR, I agree the coach does have to control the situation. You're trying to place yourself in a hypothetical situation when in fact you are above the fray and wouldn't do those things. I know your philosophy well enough to know this would never happen in your dugout. When I say "like TRHit" I only mean one that doesn't allow that for parental input. Parents and coaches do "clash" from time to time but one of the other has to be guilty of crossing the line first. In this case it was the coach that allowed a HS pitcher to throw 160 pitches. Don't jump the parent because he is the one that opened the flood gates.
Fungo

Just in case ya'll are interested, here is the blog I do on him at Lets Talk Pitching where I'm an administrator, it may give you a better total perspective
http://www.letstalkpitching.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=...ostorder=asc&start=0

Your son has responsibility for his own arm by the time he is playing on Varsity. It's his problem not yours let him deal with it.

By all means help him with discussing it and talk through how he should handle it, but let him handle it.

TR, I know you think your question is very clever and the answer self-evident, but you are wrong. The real answer to your question is this.

During the recruiting process, we asked about the coaches' philosophies for pitch counts, rest intervals, etc.

We also pored over the box scores in the teams' media guides to see whether the coaches were telling us the truth or not.

And when we got the list narrowed down, we kept an eye on the team's spring season to make sure things went the way we'd been promised. (This was between the point where we shook hands and the point where the NLI was signed.)

As a result, I don't have to worry about that situation coming up. We have established a relationship where trust is present in both directions. Or, as Ronald Reagan used to say, "Trust, but verify."

MIDLO


Things sometimes change once the player is on campus

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
There is a diplomatic way to achieve the same results that Midlo Dad suggest without offending a controlling coach like TRHit. I would get a message to my son during that game (one way or another) to tell his coach that he couldn’t throw anymore. If it were at the high school level or below I would talk to the coach prior to the next game (one on one) and explain why I was putting a pitch count on my son. This actually happened to my son as a senior in HS and I did talk to the coach ---- I bought a pitch counter and explained the pitch count limitations to the coach. He was red faced and very argumentative at first. I apologized and explained I had no other options. I didn’t threaten but I did explain that I would pull him from the team unless he stayed within the pitch count and recovery schedule. My son had already signed an NLI and I contacted his college coach prior to the talk. He said to pull him from the HS team if need be.
If this happened at college I would only talk to my son and explain the dangerous situation he was in. If he wanted to address this with his coach then that would be his call ---- Not mine. You can transfer in college.
Fungo

Simialr situation, first outing 80 pitches. Since he already signed college coach said to pull him if needed, he didn't want a bad arm (he's had enough) after one discussion in private it was settled. Pitch counts for a week until he eased into the season.

Here is an actual part from a box score of a college game I attended.(deleted the kid's name) Notice the number of pitches from this young man and the score. What on earth is a college coach thinking about here ? A potential comeback ?

Score by Innings R H E
-----------------------------------------
Gallaudet Bison..... 000 010 0 - 1 4 6
Wesley.............. 532 095 X - 24 20 0
-----------------------------------------


Gallaudet Bison IP H R ER BB SO AB BF NP
--------------------------------------------------
**............... 6.0 20 24 12 10 3 39 54 172

Well the discussion was had. Initiated by him (The coach that is)
Lots-o-bad blood was "shared". He disputes catagorically the 160 figure. Made sure that he made me aware that Andy was told last night that his arm and future were more important than any win, ever...(Andy did verify this to me later...and that he did tell him to go home and ice). He let Andy do his regular recovery regimine today and did not ask him to even pick up a ball.
He did make a couple of points that I don't have a problem with, no, Andy never labored the whole night (Looked like he didn't even break a sweat) and he did use his change about a third of the time and his fast ball more than that (I'd say 60%). He says the only reason that Andy went those innings was he was pretty much aggressively telling him that he was good and begging him not to give him the hook (The no-hitter into the 6th and he does always get stronger as the game progresses..had much to do with him giving in to Andy's pleadings).
Hummmmm.
He said that Andy would not have gone back out under any circumstances after the 8th. He said he was really proud of his appearance.
I just for the record want to make sure I represent what his coach said and the rationale and perspective he used in making his decision. As I have presented my feelings and the man cannot defend his actions here.

I posted this else where and feel it is only fair to post it here.

quote:

Originally posted by DelawareDad:
Here is an actual part from a box score of a college game I attended.(deleted the kid's name) Notice the number of pitches from this young man and the score. What on earth is a college coach thinking about here ? A potential comeback ?

Score by Innings R H E
-----------------------------------------
Gallaudet Bison..... 000 010 0 - 1 4 6
Wesley.............. 532 095 X - 24 20 0
-----------------------------------------


Gallaudet Bison IP H R ER BB SO AB BF NP
--------------------------------------------------
**............... 6.0 20 24 12 10 3 39 54 172

The above is disgusting.

JMO

quote:

he had a no hitter into the 6th.

I would have let my kid stay in the game until the no-hitter got broken up.

Pitch counts should be looked at, but rest in between big pitch count games is more important IMO.

I've got to wonder about the pitch count. Does 1er mean one earned run or 1 error? In any case, I don't think there's much chance he was near 160 pitches.

Let's take an average of 4.5 pitches per K and round it up to 68 pitches for 15Ks. Let's take 5 pitches per walk, that's 10 pitches. Let's take 3 pitches per hit, that's 6 pitches. Let's take 3 pitches for each other out, that's 27 pitches. That comes to 111 pitches and I usually overestimate more than a bit using this approach. If we use 3 pitches per error that results in roughly 16 errors unless he hit a whole lot of batters.

The linescore above shows 172 pitches for 54 batters faced. That's with a lot of walks and a fair number of strikeouts. Using a similar ratio and assuming your son faced about 31 batters he may have been under 100 pitches.

Here's yet another way to look at it, if he's been throwing less than 80 pitches in a 7 inning complete game what are the chances he's going to double that pitch count going just one more inning?

I think the coach may be correct about the pitch count and you got a bum steer from the person who gave you the pitch count. To be honest you probably owe the coach, and your son, an apology.

So what would I do? I'd buy my own counter and not trust anyone else's count.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
I would have let my kid stay in the game until the no-hitter got broken up.

He probably began racking up after 6 also.

I'm not trying to attack or start trouble here but the numbers don't add up. You are saying your son averaged 20 pitches per inning for 8 innings. He is throwing a no no into the 6th inning.

So is he going a full count on every batter or is there a lot of errors behind him or was he cruising and then started struggling late in the game?

Also you said he was throwing backwards starting offspeed but then said he was throwing majority fastballs. Usually if you are throwing backwards you are going to be in the 50 / 50 range of offspeed and fastballs.

I can tell your not a troll and getting on here and starting trouble. Your posts seem to have some really good questions and information behind them. I'm just not understanding the numbers here. Then again I teach history and really stink at math so I could be really wrong here.

Actually after reading the rest of the thread CADad brought in some good numbers about the number of pitches.

I don't think your son threw that many but he probably did throw too many for that outing. Anything over 100 - 110 and you are not getting anything productive on average.

quote:

I've got to wonder about the pitch count. Does 1er mean one earned run or 1 error? In any case, I don't think there's much chance he was near 160 pitches.
To be honest you probably owe the coach, and your son, an apology.

So what would I do? I'd buy my own counter and not trust anyone else's count.

I sure appreciate your honest thoughtful answer CaDad, you may have missed my point that after the 3rd he was "sequence backward" and starting most every count 2-0..no matter. We did talk it through the coach and I (In a conversation that to his credit, he initiated), if you read my log on LTP you'll see I posted the newspaper article about the game and his coach admitted he let him go likely too long but did it because of who the pitcher was. The quote went something like this.."I know I left him in too long but Andy's so tough that...". Now I didn't apologize to him and he himself said I was within my parental rights to be concerned...but we did talk it through and likely have a better relationship at this point (In fact he called me the next day after our talk).
As to the math...that to me is the foggy part and you are right...it has actually not been an issue til now (All his CG's have been under 80 pitches..except this one). I will pry open my wifes vault...I mean purse and drop the big money
thanks again.
jd

quote:

I'm not trying to attack or start trouble here but the numbers don't add up.

As with CaDad I appreciate the thoughtful comments.
No I'm not looking for anything but great baseball discussion. New blood on a site can stir things up.
I realize that and sort of anticipated some nudge..but I'm a grown up, hopefully I haven't offended. It isn't my intention. Truthfully though if its a choice of hurting an old timers feelings or help a kid...well the kid will always win...but I'll always be looking to disagree with respect.
In oder not to bore everyone to pieces I'll refer you to my response to CaDad on the numbers...
Thanks again
jd