So what would your kid do?

Nuke83 posted:

hshuler posted:

Nuke83 posted:

Nuke83 posted:

hshuler posted:

We have a possible similar scenario with higher stakes.  I'm not trying to hijack your thread but if we make it to the finals next week, the choice for some seniors and parents is, do I walk at graduation or do I miss the graduation ceremony to play in the state championship baseball series. 

 

Exactly, and this is where GHSA moving baseball championship to neutral site is a poor idea (IMHO).  This happens every year, and in past years, when games were played at the school, teams could tweak schedule to accommodate seniors graduation. Now they cannot.

As for the OP, the girls have a choice to make, do I disappoint all the other girls by not being at the game where they are depending on me, or do I disappoint myself at the expense of the team.

My personal advice to my child would be that there's really no question, team first, but it's easy for me to say that since I have boys and both skipped prom in the past for baseball.  A bit more difficult for a girl. 

Well, GHSA has just revised Georgia playoff championships to accommodate graduation dates at schools.

http://www.ghsa.net/baseball-c...-changed-graduations

Good for them!

I really hope that the neutral sites are revised next year to include an Atlanta-area option. There's a lot of highway in between Rome and Savannah. 

Rome is considered the "Atlanta" option.  There was talk of trying to use Foley Field, but I don't believe they could get the scheduling commitment from UGA.

I don't believe you'll ever see an option IN Atlanta.  GHSA does all they can to make the rural areas not feel like red headed step children.  Changing pitch count limits from 110 to 120 for the playoffs this season is an example of some of the steps they'll take to level the playing field.

Understood! 

If we win, Rome sounds better for a day trip. Although, Savannah sounds better for a vacation.

Honestly, I just want to win and would happily drive to Florida to play if we did.

Nuke83 posted:

jacjacatk posted:

HRCJR posted:

hshuler posted:

Nuke83 posted:

hshuler posted:

We have a possible similar scenario with higher stakes.  I'm not trying to hijack your thread but if we make it to the finals next week, the choice for some seniors and parents is, do I walk at graduation or do I miss the graduation ceremony to play in the state championship baseball series. 

 

Exactly, and this is where GHSA moving baseball championship to neutral site is a poor idea (IMHO).  This happens every year, and in past years, when games were played at the school, teams could tweak schedule to accommodate seniors graduation. Now they cannot.

As for the OP, the girls have a choice to make, do I disappoint all the other girls by not being at the game where they are depending on me, or do I disappoint myself at the expense of the team.

My personal advice to my child would be that there's really no question, team first, but it's easy for me to say that since I have boys and both skipped prom in the past for baseball.  A bit more difficult for a girl. 

Nuke - Great point but what I don't understand is not having a third Atlanta area option, like the Gwinnett Braves or Kennesaw State stadiums, for example. 

In the 7A classification, you have two Gwinnett and two teams from Woodstock. The winners will have to travel to Savannah or Rome, which takes away a lot of the students from attending the championship game. Now, it will probably be mostly parents and an empty stadium. When we hosted Mill Creek for the region championship, there were over 500 people in attendance. 

How many levels of State baseball championships are there in Georgia?  More than 7 or is that the biggest?

7A is the biggest (and new this year IIRC).  There are 8 total (there's a public and a private 1A).

And, there is another governing body outside of GHSA (GISA) that has schools which play baseball.  GISA has two classifications, AA and AAA and crown a champion in each.

So combined with the 8 total classifications in GHSA, a total of 10 levels in Georgia.

That is a lot of High School Championships in Georgia.  Illinois has 3 million more people than Georgia but only 4 classes of Baseball Championships.  Publics & Privates together (though most privates play up at least 1 class than their enrollment).  Also need to win 7 one and done games.  Often only 1 or 2 days between games.  Need more than one pitcher.

Wasn't that long ago Illinois had only two classes.  A and AA.  That was it. Now that's hard to win a state championship.  In Wisconsin they have millions of classes regardless of small population.  Makes it feel almost embarrassing to win a state title.  Small medium and large.  Three classes all sports.  That's all you need. Maybe California and Texas could add a fourth or something. 7 or 8 classifications is way too many even for the largest states.  Not an accomplishment anymore. 

There is a town in GA called woodstock. It is 11.7 square miles big. Within that town there are two 7A high schools, one 6A high school.  That's over 6 thousand kids in 11.7 square miles.

The state 7A championship is being played by two schools 2.2 miles apart from each other. And there are other schools in Woodstock in lower classifications.

The population of high school kids in GA is bigger than people think.

CaCO3Girl posted:

There is a town in GA called woodstock. It is 11.7 square miles big. Within that town there are two 7A high schools, one 6A high school.  That's over 6 thousand kids in 11.7 square miles.

The state 7A championship is being played by two schools 2.2 miles apart from each other. And there are other schools in Woodstock in lower classifications.

The population of high school kids in GA is bigger than people think.

A lot depends on the school district's desire for high school size.  In our area we have two schools of thought.  Some go mega big high schools -- more like small colleges.  You'll have 3000-5000 kids.  Then you'll have districts that want to keep HS enrollment closer to 2000 kids, so they will build multiple high schools in relatively close proximity to each other.  Then you get out into the country you get your rural schools with less than 1000 kids.  It really makes a difference in the quality of your athletics.  The bigger schools are more like travel teams -- deep with talent.  The small rural schools are closer to rec. -- a few good players surrounded by a lot of errors. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

There is a town in GA called woodstock. It is 11.7 square miles big. Within that town there are two 7A high schools, one 6A high school.  That's over 6 thousand kids in 11.7 square miles.

The state 7A championship is being played by two schools 2.2 miles apart from each other. And there are other schools in Woodstock in lower classifications.

The population of high school kids in GA is bigger than people think.

That is still a lot of State Championships - kinda watered down.  Doesn't mean much to say you are one of 7 (or 10 depending on how you count it) State Champions.  

I think 4 is a lot in Illinois.  I wish they had a final tournament amongst the 4 winners.  Find one true champion.

In illinois we have 89 schools with enrollment of over 2000.  We have an area just north of Chicago(10 sq miles if that much) with with 7,000 students in two public schools.  You can also throw into that area a Catholic school with 2100 students plus a few other private high schools with another 1000 or so kids.

HRCJR posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

There is a town in GA called woodstock. It is 11.7 square miles big. Within that town there are two 7A high schools, one 6A high school.  That's over 6 thousand kids in 11.7 square miles.

The state 7A championship is being played by two schools 2.2 miles apart from each other. And there are other schools in Woodstock in lower classifications.

The population of high school kids in GA is bigger than people think.

That is still a lot of State Championships - kinda watered down.  Doesn't mean much to say you are one of 7 (or 10 depending on how you count it) State Champions.  

I think 4 is a lot in Illinois.  I wish they had a final tournament amongst the 4 winners.  Find one true champion.

In illinois we have 89 schools with enrollment of over 2000.  We have an area just north of Chicago(10 sq miles if that much) with with 7,000 students in two public schools.  You can also throw into that area a Catholic school with 2100 students plus a few other private high schools with another 1000 or so kids.

Arkansas has seven classifications with a much, much smaller population.

HRCJR posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

There is a town in GA called woodstock. It is 11.7 square miles big. Within that town there are two 7A high schools, one 6A high school.  That's over 6 thousand kids in 11.7 square miles.

The state 7A championship is being played by two schools 2.2 miles apart from each other. And there are other schools in Woodstock in lower classifications.

The population of high school kids in GA is bigger than people think.

That is still a lot of State Championships - kinda watered down.  Doesn't mean much to say you are one of 7 (or 10 depending on how you count it) State Champions.  

I think 4 is a lot in Illinois.  I wish they had a final tournament amongst the 4 winners.  Find one true champion.

In illinois we have 89 schools with enrollment of over 2000.  We have an area just north of Chicago(10 sq miles if that much) with with 7,000 students in two public schools.  You can also throw into that area a Catholic school with 2100 students plus a few other private high schools with another 1000 or so kids.

The five HS in my county, all of which are in the same 7A classification as the two in the finals here in GA, have a combined population of just over 13,000, and subdivisions here are popping up like weeds (less than half the county is really developed at this point).

Maybe the HS age population in metro Chicago is more evenly spread out, but at least in the north Atlanta burbs the population is definitely heavily clustered with school age kids in a lot of places.  7A was just recently created, partially in an effort to avoid huge mismatches between schools of different sizes.  Haven't tried googling up any of the lower classifications, but one of my son's old teammates played at a HS with about 1/3 as many total students as were in my son's graduating class, and I think that's a fair bit more common once you get out of the Atlanta Metro.

I don't think it matters how population is clustered - 7 or 10 classifications is ridiculous. For Georgia, Arkansas, Illinois or anywhere else. At least Illinois has kept it to four.  Still too many but not ludicrous. 

HRCJR posted:

Nuke83 posted:

jacjacatk posted:

HRCJR posted:

hshuler posted:

Nuke83 posted:

hshuler posted:

We have a possible similar scenario with higher stakes.  I'm not trying to hijack your thread but if we make it to the finals next week, the choice for some seniors and parents is, do I walk at graduation or do I miss the graduation ceremony to play in the state championship baseball series. 

 

Exactly, and this is where GHSA moving baseball championship to neutral site is a poor idea (IMHO).  This happens every year, and in past years, when games were played at the school, teams could tweak schedule to accommodate seniors graduation. Now they cannot.

As for the OP, the girls have a choice to make, do I disappoint all the other girls by not being at the game where they are depending on me, or do I disappoint myself at the expense of the team.

My personal advice to my child would be that there's really no question, team first, but it's easy for me to say that since I have boys and both skipped prom in the past for baseball.  A bit more difficult for a girl. 

Nuke - Great point but what I don't understand is not having a third Atlanta area option, like the Gwinnett Braves or Kennesaw State stadiums, for example. 

In the 7A classification, you have two Gwinnett and two teams from Woodstock. The winners will have to travel to Savannah or Rome, which takes away a lot of the students from attending the championship game. Now, it will probably be mostly parents and an empty stadium. When we hosted Mill Creek for the region championship, there were over 500 people in attendance. 

How many levels of State baseball championships are there in Georgia?  More than 7 or is that the biggest?

7A is the biggest (and new this year IIRC).  There are 8 total (there's a public and a private 1A).

And, there is another governing body outside of GHSA (GISA) that has schools which play baseball.  GISA has two classifications, AA and AAA and crown a champion in each.

So combined with the 8 total classifications in GHSA, a total of 10 levels in Georgia.

That is a lot of High School Championships in Georgia.  Illinois has 3 million more people than Georgia but only 4 classes of Baseball Championships.  Publics & Privates together (though most privates play up at least 1 class than their enrollment).  Also need to win 7 one and done games.  Often only 1 or 2 days between games.  Need more than one pitcher.

7 one-and-done games? So there is a bracket of 128 teams? Does everybody make the playoffs? 

In GA class 7A there are 8 regions.  Each region sends the best four teams to the playoffs, so 32 teams in playoffs per Classification. You need best out of three to advance. First game is doubleheader, if a third is needed that's another day.  Usually about a week inbetween each series.

Which had the admittedly amusing result this year of 32 out of 56 teams making it in 7A, and two teams that went 7-8 in region play (3rd and 4th in the same region, even) playing for the championship.

Why they didn't just start with 16, or even 24, teams is beyond me.

2019Dad posted:

HRCJR posted:

Nuke83 posted:

jacjacatk posted:

HRCJR posted:

hshuler posted:

Nuke83 posted:

hshuler posted:

We have a possible similar scenario with higher stakes.  I'm not trying to hijack your thread but if we make it to the finals next week, the choice for some seniors and parents is, do I walk at graduation or do I miss the graduation ceremony to play in the state championship baseball series. 

 

Exactly, and this is where GHSA moving baseball championship to neutral site is a poor idea (IMHO).  This happens every year, and in past years, when games were played at the school, teams could tweak schedule to accommodate seniors graduation. Now they cannot.

As for the OP, the girls have a choice to make, do I disappoint all the other girls by not being at the game where they are depending on me, or do I disappoint myself at the expense of the team.

My personal advice to my child would be that there's really no question, team first, but it's easy for me to say that since I have boys and both skipped prom in the past for baseball.  A bit more difficult for a girl. 

Nuke - Great point but what I don't understand is not having a third Atlanta area option, like the Gwinnett Braves or Kennesaw State stadiums, for example. 

In the 7A classification, you have two Gwinnett and two teams from Woodstock. The winners will have to travel to Savannah or Rome, which takes away a lot of the students from attending the championship game. Now, it will probably be mostly parents and an empty stadium. When we hosted Mill Creek for the region championship, there were over 500 people in attendance. 

How many levels of State baseball championships are there in Georgia?  More than 7 or is that the biggest?

7A is the biggest (and new this year IIRC).  There are 8 total (there's a public and a private 1A).

And, there is another governing body outside of GHSA (GISA) that has schools which play baseball.  GISA has two classifications, AA and AAA and crown a champion in each.

So combined with the 8 total classifications in GHSA, a total of 10 levels in Georgia.

That is a lot of High School Championships in Georgia.  Illinois has 3 million more people than Georgia but only 4 classes of Baseball Championships.  Publics & Privates together (though most privates play up at least 1 class than their enrollment).  Also need to win 7 one and done games.  Often only 1 or 2 days between games.  Need more than one pitcher.

7 one-and-done games? So there is a bracket of 128 teams? Does everybody make the playoffs? 

Everyone makes the playoffs and its a one and done tourney.

I could swear there was a time Illinois had best of three series and you had to qualify.  Baseball should never be single elim.  And no level should ever be under 100 schools. Preferably more.  It needs to mean something. 

jacjacatk posted:

Which had the admittedly amusing result this year of 32 out of 56 teams making it in 7A, and two teams that went 7-8 in region play (3rd and 4th in the same region, even) playing for the championship.

Why they didn't just start with 16, or even 24, teams is beyond me.

Ghsa rules say "playoffs" are $10 a ticket. More playoffs is more money.

The 7A depth is absurd in GA. Take Walton for example.  Slated to win it all, ranked 4th in the COUNTRY got knocked out during the sweet 16 by mill creek.  These final two are absurd...they were supposed to each be out several times along the way...this year has just been weird.  Underdogs rule!

FWP, I'm not a big fan of watered down product either.  I think, in some instances, maybe the number of classes can be reduced.  But, this is another one of those things that I think may be easier to categorize and generalize from a distance.  It's a bit tougher when you are close to it. 

Some examples...

Nevada has 119 HS baseball programs in the entire state (in fact, 18 states have 150 or fewer).  The programs there range from those such as Bishop Gorman to typical small schools and everywhere in between.  Bishop Gorman has athletic facilities and programs that put many colleges to shame.  The state needs to have at least a large, standard and small school category.  By your rules ("no level should ever be under 100 schools"), they should only have one level, two at the most.  This would leave most schools with no chance to ever compete beyond their league, even those rare years when they have their best stock of talent.

Keep in mind that there are almost 16,000 HS baseball programs.  Our state (Calif.) alone has about 1500.  Our Southern Section alone has about 600.  We have seven divisions.  Our school is fairly small, only about 750 students.  There were a couple of years recently that we had six or seven on our team who would go on to contribute to their college teams, including some D1 pitching.  Yet, we could never get past semi's in the FIFTH largest class.  On the flip side, there is a smaller school in our area who won their league going undefeated in the process.  If we were to play them, we would run-rule them nine times out of ten.  They deserve to play beyond their league. It just shows the need for multiple classifications.

I don't know, I've seen it work both ways.  Reaching state/section playoffs after winning league creates a great deal of deserved excitement for schools of all sizes.  Then, at times, a smaller school will have that great talent stock run through and it's a shame when they plow through their tiny school division when they could have competed a level or two up.  There are no perfect solutions. 

No doubt there are no perfect solutions.  And I agree with you small medium and large are needed even in a state with only 150 schools total.  But I just think small medium and large still works with 900 high schools!

FWP posted:

No doubt there are no perfect solutions.  And I agree with you small medium and large are needed even in a state with only 150 schools total.  But I just think small medium and large still works with 900 high schools!

3,700 high schools  in Texas.  There is not a problem here, so no thanks to your solution.

Winning state is an "Accomplishment" in any class.  If you don't think so, come on down and ask the kids.

Go44dad posted:

FWP posted:

No doubt there are no perfect solutions.  And I agree with you small medium and large are needed even in a state with only 150 schools total.  But I just think small medium and large still works with 900 high schools!

3,700 high schools  in Texas.  There is not a problem here, so no thanks to your solution.

Winning state is an "Accomplishment" in any class.  If you don't think so, come on down and ask the kids.

Agree 100%.

So, the big controversy around here concerning graduation was with track. Track was moved from a Thu/Fri/Sat schedule to a Sat/Sun which meant track athletes would miss graduation. We have a Saturday morning prep sports call-in show and there were tons of calls from pi$$ed off parents who didn't understand why they would schedule it during graduation. They were calling for the head of CHSSA to be fired (she's only been on the job for about a month). Our state track is at one site and includes all classifications at the same time. 

When I went to the CHSAA message board, though, the differences in posts were remarkable. There were some like the voices I heard, but there were just as many thanking CHSAA for not pushing it into the week and getting it in as soon as they did. What our people didn't understand was that there were a few hundred schools involved and most either had their graduation ceremonies on Friday or Saturday, so they had already been inconvenienced. 

Our baseball was pushed to Tue/Wed and avoided the graduation problem. However, 5A was pushed to Sun/Mon and 4A to Mon/Tue. Most complaints from baseball were that they didn't try to get the fields ready to play on Sat/Sun. Playing during the week certainly wasn't a choice CHSAA wanted to make. I'm sure there will be a lot of lost gate revenue.