Someone sell me on long toss

My son (A freshman D1 pitcher) has used long toss a lot since he was in about he 8th grade.  A former travel coach (MLB pitcher) really stressed the good of it.  I'm no doctor...so I have no idea on whether or not it's good for you...but it did help my son make significant strides in velocity to the point that he touched 90 multiple times his senior year of HS.  Once he got to college last fall, he has been using the college's throwing recommendations (some long toss...but not as much)....both over the winter and this spring. He's been up to 89...even though he's been on the weights and gained 10+ pounds.  It is fairly early in the season here in the North...and he hasn't pitched in weather much over 50 degrees yet.  He has commented that he doesn't feel like his arm is at the same point as it was in HS by early April....even though the D1 has been playing games for a month and a half

FWIW

Went to a White Sox game a couple of years ago. After batting practice, both teams had cleared the field except 2 players. One was positioned on the right field line, and the other approx 200 feet away toward left center. They were of course playing long toss. Turns out one of the players was the starting pitcher of that game. Zach Greinke

There are many examples of long tossing helping to increase velocity. I think the jury is still out regarding future arm injuries resulting from long toss.  I think it is very important to do it correctly.

Story, many years ago there was a HS that had three or four kids throwing in the 90s, including two that were early round draft picks.  I talked to the coach and asked him how he ended up with all these great arms.  He said, we long toss a lot!  I said, OK, but everyone is long tossing these days.  His reply was, yes but we long toss by throwing the ball as far as they can throw it.

I thought maybe this coach has discovered something very important.  Later the two early round picks suffered serious arm injuries and both ended up having very short careers.

Does any of the above mean anything, maybe, maybe not!

Risk and Reward.  

High velocity involves additional risk. Low velocity much less risk.

High velocity can create large rewards. Low velocity not much chance for large rewards.

What would people be willing to risk if it were possible for them to have a mid 90s fastball?  TJ surgery? Career end?

I really believe that over the next few years we will know so much more than we know today.  It would be great if the rewards could happen with very little risk.

Here's the problem: we just don't know. Long-toss seems to help some (most?) pitchers. Many do it. There is certainly a correlation between how far one can throw a ball, and how fast one can throw a ball.

But a scientific study showing that a long-toss program of x weeks or months results on average in a y improvement . . . I don't think that exists.

To sell you on it, I would say (paraphrasing Ron Woolforth): no one ever learned to throw harder or farther by trying to throw softer or shorter. By trying to throw far, over time the body trains itself to throw farther, which correlates with increased velocity. Could you get the same benefits with "mound work at full intensity"? I don't see why not. Are there risks? Yes, both of those approaches have risks. 

Here's where I'm coming from with this thread. For years, I have bought into - and preached - the idea that long toss was wasted time that could be better spent working off the mound. Further, I could explain to my students why I thought this. However, my own son challenged my beliefs in this area over the weekend (that's a first and I don't like it). He pointed out that my main reasons for steering kids away from it hinged on the idea that it didn't very well duplicate mound mechanics and the one ASMI study I have inducted into my thinking. Then he pointed out how completely I have bought into weighted ball work with a crow hop, which certainly doesn't duplicate mound work. When I explained my position rather well, I thought, he questioned why I didn't give LT the same benefits. Hmm. So, now I'm on the fence.

I've always sort of dismissed the stories I hear with the idea (I still think valid, by the way) that none of this observational evidence dismisses the idea that velocity gains would have come with or without the long toss.

I don't like being on the fence. I also don't like reversing my opinion, but I'm trying to be open to the idea. I think with more and more pitchers incorporating LT into their programs, I have a harder time dismissing their claims.

Root, here is what I like about this discussion. You are open to it and investigating it. I know as a 54 year old, I get closed minded sometimes, especially what I think I really know. I applaud you for being willing to be open

Could someone explain the differences between mound pitching and long toss (done "correctly")?  I always assumed LT was meant to strengthen the arm, including shoulder and back, with a slower motion that is not quite as whip-saw (for lack of a more technical term) as live pitching.  As such, I assumed LT gave you the muscle build while avoiding some of the high end, maximum elbow stress (that last 10% that can snap the UCL).  I am not too technically grounded in pitching but got that impression over the years.  Perhaps my question would be how do you build - precisely - muscle strength used in throwing without going 100% off the mound (other than basic band work and some generic weight training)?

Long toss helps muscle memory for throwing as maximum effort and helps in developing and maintaining a greater range of motion for throwing.   Pitching, from the wind up and especially from a set position is not natural movement for the body when throwing.  If all your throwing consists of pitching only (particularly near or at maximum effort), then the body is not getting the the full range of muscles moving for throwing, which tends to put more stress on the arm than throwing naturally.  A proper long toss regiment will provide more range of movement, develop more efficient mechanics and leads to muscle memory resulting in somewhat less stress on the  arm muscles and ligaments used when pitching.  Long toss also helps increase arm speed the deceleration muscles that are so important to increased velocity.  So, increasing arm speed and maintaining it through long toss at max effort puts less strain on the arm vs. some routine of max effort with the pitching motion only.  This is all pretty much just preliminary conclusions as there's just not enough quantitative data available to date to support any definitive conclusions.

Tom House is a strong supporter of long toss and tends to use a lot of scientific data along with his own experiences in training professional athletes that throw objects (yes, not just baseballs).   He not only works with MLB pitchers, but also NFL quarterbacks as well as other sports as you might find in track and field.  The science for throwing is rather new and there's just not a lot of data available.  When House began using high tech measuring devices  he said it changed everything he thought he knew about pitching.  From what he learned, all the stuff he used to teach before hand he said was simply garbage and had to approach things in a whole new way. And even now House is collecting as much data as he can and analyzing it as scientifically as possible to maximize pitching performance.  The studies are still ongoing and someday we'll have something more concrete and quantitative to say just how beneficial long toss might be or not.  Is House the definitive authority on throwing?  Not likely.  But by the true nature of science, we're likely to continually refine our understanding of what long toss actually brings to the table.

Perhaps you'll find this articles of interest:

5 Things You Must Understand About Baseball Long Toss Programs

BetterPitching.com

RD,

I can't give you anything more than my experience with LT, and I have to ask if you have ever personally tried LT?  The bottom line is it feels REALLY good and is completely different than just throwing.  The only analogy I can think of is long distance running or cycling when your endorphins kick in.  Your muscles loosen up and you can really push your bodies limits.  Unlike anything I have experienced through any other throwing routine.   

Sometimes it is difficult to have an open mind. However, in baseball an open mind is a big asset. There is so much to learn and nobody has all the answers.

Truman posted:

Long toss helps muscle memory for throwing as maximum effort and helps in developing and maintaining a greater range of motion for throwing.   Pitching, from the wind up and especially from a set position is not natural movement for the body when throwing.  If all your throwing consists of pitching only (particularly near or at maximum effort), then the body is not getting the the full range of muscles moving for throwing, which tends to put more stress on the arm than throwing naturally.  A proper long toss regiment will provide more range of movement, develop more efficient mechanics and leads to muscle memory resulting in somewhat less stress on the  arm muscles and ligaments used when pitching.  Long toss also helps increase arm speed the deceleration muscles that are so important to increased velocity.  So, increasing arm speed and maintaining it through long toss at max effort puts less strain on the arm vs. some routine of max effort with the pitching motion only.  This is all pretty much just preliminary conclusions as there's just not enough quantitative data available to date to support any definitive conclusions.

Tom House is a strong supporter of long toss and tends to use a lot of scientific data along with his own experiences in training professional athletes that throw objects (yes, not just baseballs).   He not only works with MLB pitchers, but also NFL quarterbacks as well as other sports as you might find in track and field.  The science for throwing is rather new and there's just not a lot of data available.  When House began using high tech measuring devices  he said it changed everything he thought he knew about pitching.  From what he learned, all the stuff he used to teach before hand he said was simply garbage and had to approach things in a whole new way. And even now House is collecting as much data as he can and analyzing it as scientifically as possible to maximize pitching performance.  The studies are still ongoing and someday we'll have something more concrete and quantitative to say just how beneficial long toss might be or not.  Is House the definitive authority on throwing?  Not likely.  But by the true nature of science, we're like to refine our understanding of what long toss actually brings to the table.

 

Perhaps you'll find this articles of interest:

5 Things You Must Understand About Baseball Long Toss Programs

BetterPitching.com

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the links. I did notice that Reinold made it clear that he believes that LT is important, but does not help build arm strength. I also wondered if you had an opinion concerning your first statement and the idea that youcan  get the same benefits concerning arm speed from weighted ball "run-and-guns?"

Also, you mentioned your belief that throwing from a mound puts more stress on the arm. In one of the articles you provide, Reinold states, citing ASMI's study, that long toss puts more stress on the arm than throwing from the mound.

Having said that, I think there is something to the idea that putting more stress on the arm during training actually conditions the arm to accept more stress, lowering injury risk. That's one of the things I believe weighted ball training does and I'm ok with that, so maybe I should be ok with the added stress of LT.

roothog66 posted:

Truman posted:

Long toss helps muscle memory for throwing as maximum effort and helps in developing and maintaining a greater range of motion for throwing.   Pitching, from the wind up and especially from a set position is not natural movement for the body when throwing.  If all your throwing consists of pitching only (particularly near or at maximum effort), then the body is not getting the the full range of muscles moving for throwing, which tends to put more stress on the arm than throwing naturally.  A proper long toss regiment will provide more range of movement, develop more efficient mechanics and leads to muscle memory resulting in somewhat less stress on the  arm muscles and ligaments used when pitching.  Long toss also helps increase arm speed the deceleration muscles that are so important to increased velocity.  So, increasing arm speed and maintaining it through long toss at max effort puts less strain on the arm vs. some routine of max effort with the pitching motion only.  This is all pretty much just preliminary conclusions as there's just not enough quantitative data available to date to support any definitive conclusions.

Tom House is a strong supporter of long toss and tends to use a lot of scientific data along with his own experiences in training professional athletes that throw objects (yes, not just baseballs).   He not only works with MLB pitchers, but also NFL quarterbacks as well as other sports as you might find in track and field.  The science for throwing is rather new and there's just not a lot of data available.  When House began using high tech measuring devices  he said it changed everything he thought he knew about pitching.  From what he learned, all the stuff he used to teach before hand he said was simply garbage and had to approach things in a whole new way. And even now House is collecting as much data as he can and analyzing it as scientifically as possible to maximize pitching performance.  The studies are still ongoing and someday we'll have something more concrete and quantitative to say just how beneficial long toss might be or not.  Is House the definitive authority on throwing?  Not likely.  But by the true nature of science, we're like to refine our understanding of what long toss actually brings to the table.

 

Perhaps you'll find this articles of interest:

5 Things You Must Understand About Baseball Long Toss Programs

BetterPitching.com

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the links. I did notice that Reinold made it clear that he believes that LT is important, but does not help build arm strength. I also wondered if you had an opinion concerning your first statement and the idea that youcan  get the same benefits concerning arm speed from weighted ball "run-and-guns?"

I think  throwing with weighted balls is excellent as part of a conditioning program.  But while working with them will address many of the same elements of the kinetic chain as long toss, there is still a deference in the set of elements used and how they're used within in the throwing motion.  I only can go by my own anecdotal evidence that suggests to me that long toss seems to provide a longer term benefit for arm speed than weighted balls.  I think they should be used together and not and either/or issue.

 

Also, you mentioned your belief that throwing from a mound puts more stress on the arm. In one of the articles you provide, Reinold states, citing ASMI's study, that long toss puts more stress on the arm than throwing from the mound.

 "Stress on the arm" tends to be pretty ambiguous.  When one speaks specifically in terms of the forces applied to joints and ligaments and the torques involved, one needs to looks at those numbers relative to other vector forces, how it's measured and how it's all related to arm speed and velocity of the object being thrown.  "Arm stress" can have any number of variations for what's actually being stressed within the arm.  The UCL is the main concern of course and I assume that's the focus of ASMI's reference to "stress on the arm."   The "stress" come up with it is actually mathematical calculation based on exterior measurements rather than some kind of direct measurements from within (someday that just may be possible).  But that's the best we can do for now, and I feel the data used is a just a little too general to support that argument.

Though the ASMI's study is a very good one with a lot of good data, good science doesn't make conclusions based on a single study.

Having said that, I think there is something to the idea that putting more stress on the arm during training actually conditions the arm to accept more stress, lowering injury risk. That's one of the things I believe weighted ball training does and I'm ok with that, so maybe I should be ok with the added stress of LT.

 That's a good point about stress conditioning the arm to accept more stress.  Certainly, we know that works on the bones and even for the muscles.  And I've only heard non-scientifically that increasing bone density and muscle will lead to increase in the "strength" of ligaments and tenons ("strength" having more to do with size/bulk than density of the tissue).  But it seems to me if you do all of that, like a with a body builder, one tends to loose flexibility as some point, which restricts angular momentum and that would be counter to a goal of increasing arm speed. . .huh???

Yeah, I kinda like the idea of doing both weighted ball training along with a popper long toss regiment. 

Science says long toss (beyond 120 feet) puts undue stress on the elbow and there is no evidence that it increases MPH. Science also says weighted balls put undue stress on the arm and, again, there is no scientific evidence that it increases MPH. Long toss and using weighted balls are both different skills from pitching, so what's the point? Why take the risk doing something that isn't pitching? Why choose unproven theories and guesswork over science?

A pitcher is better off spending his time learning to use his body efficiently from the mound. "Arm strength" is a misnomer -- MPH comes from synchronization of the upper and lower body and staying sideways as long as possible.

Joe Janish
http://FixingPitchers.com

Where is it "proven" by science that weighted balls put undo stress on the arm compared to mound work?  Is it scientifically proven that just pitching more from the mound increases velocity?  Isn't pitching more scientifically proven to put stress on the elbow?

I don't see long toss or weighted balls as being more stressful that throwing off a mound.  It still mimics the need to create velocity from the hips/core in order to make the throws.  It gives a goal to the brain to improve the outcome.  It is important to do the pull down phase and attempt to maintain accuracy in your throwing, in order to blend the long toss into a pitching motion. 

2019Dad posted:

Here's the problem: we just don't know. Long-toss seems to help some (most?) pitchers. Many do it. There is certainly a correlation between how far one can throw a ball, and how fast one can throw a ball.

 

 Also to keep in mind that position players long toss as well. 

Root,

Nice discussion. I don't really know the answer but I became a believer years ago after reading an article by Tony Rasmus (HS coach and father of Colby, Corey and Casey) before LT became fashionable.  

I know my son wasn't a fan of LT, but he did incorporate it into his routine, but he also threw very hard at a young age, so I cant tell if that helped, but he never really did have a very serious injury as for someone who threw hard. I don't see how it can harm anyone.  

Would like to hear from Kyle.

I don't know about long toss, root -- but I love the fact that your son is willing to challenge his dad so thoughtfully.

I think it is a matter of personal preference. Some of our guys long toss extreme distances, some throw to 120 feet only. But everyone does throwing-specific training and not stuff only off the mound, though we throw a lot more off the mound than we used to.

So I don't really have anything specific to say, sorry! I think if you need to be sold on long toss, then it's not for you. It has long been my policy not to sell what I do to anyone. I just put stuff out there, our data, our experiences, and let people make their own decisions.

Overall, I support long toss, and extreme distance long toss. But I don't think everyone needs to do it and I don't care if people don't do it, as long as they are doing some sort of throwing program away from the mound.

OnBaseball posted:

Science says long toss (beyond 120 feet) puts undue stress on the elbow and there is no evidence that it increases MPH. Science also says weighted balls put undue stress on the arm and, again, there is no scientific evidence that it increases MPH. Long toss and using weighted balls are both different skills from pitching, so what's the point? Why take the risk doing something that isn't pitching? Why choose unproven theories and guesswork over science?

A pitcher is better off spending his time learning to use his body efficiently from the mound. "Arm strength" is a misnomer -- MPH comes from synchronization of the upper and lower body and staying sideways as long as possible.

Joe Janish
http://FixingPitchers.com

Hmmm???  You say "science says", so with your long experience maybe you can point to several scientific studies that say that . . . ?   I'd love to read them.  Or are you referring to only one study?

There is lots of material on the subject. Do the research and decide for yourself. There is way too much information on the subject to get a quick summary from someone like myself or others, but the idea is good to gather up some of the evidence and information. I have literally researched the subject over probably 10 years and put in 100's of hours into it, (not just long toss, but other training including heavy/light balls) but unfortunately did not collate and collect all of my information to hand out, I just did it for my own knowledge to guide my son, which you are doing. 

BTW the ASMI study has some fundamental flaws in their data collection which IMO (and some others) invalidates their conclusions. CADad who used to post here some time ago (who is actually a rocket scientist) pointed them out to AMSI and never received a response. It had to do with the Cosine errors in their velocity measurements. If you are that interested you could probably do some searches and find his comments here.

If it was my son at that age I would either get him into a Wolforth or Driveline program which included heavy/light ball throwing and integrate it with a long toss regime .  BTW I would also have him do "long toss" from his knees for improved arm action, believe me this is huge for someone with poor arm action. They body is amazing on how it can adapt and fix something on its own without a bunch of "pitching lessons".  I personally liked the concept of long toss as it was not "pitching specific" and it had an automatic feedback mechanism for the thrower. If he was throwing well then they can see it in the distance thrown. It got my son out on the field throwing baseballs, I know D'Oh but it is a way to get them more of this activity in, in a controlled and measurable way.  

I have always been a huge believer in cross functional training as it has proven to improve athletic performance in the related event. I always go back to sprint training, as it is the most developed and studied of "speed related" athletics.  They have a combination of under, over, specific, training, as well as weight training to improve speed performance. The weight training is very specific and phased also. You see these types of techniques being applied to pitching now and it does not surprise me that we are seeing the increased velocities of baseball pitchers across the board. Your argument that since pitchers only throw from the mound then they should only throw from the  mound goes out the door if you look at it from the proven training done in other athletic endeavors. 

I really like what Kyle is doing as he is studying it specifically for the throwing a baseball. Wolforth did it before him (and probably to a lesser scientific approach) and Dr John Bagonzi did it before anyone to my knowledge. (he got his PhD on throwing weighted baseballs and is the first to my knowledge to promote them) I got a copy of his thesis and don't know where I put it...

Of course with these velocity increases we will see a corresponding increase in injuries. As PG pointed out, high velocities induce higher loads, and since load is a squared function of velocity  the stress levels are not linear we will continue to see higher injuries in pitching until some of the cross training techniques that Kyle is working on catch up.

So this is a long winded answer to long toss, yes or no, but in reality it should not just be the question of long toss but how do you develop an integrated plan for your son that includes long toss.

Best of luck to you and your boy! 

I don't have a great bit of science to back up my stand at all, but two coaches I trust: my sons travel coach (RHP 1st Round Draft pick out of HS who was injured before he ever pitched in a MLB game) and UVA pitching coach Karl Kuhn (Only *two* pitching related injuries in his 12 seasons as a pitching coach for a top Div I program, and those two came to him well on their way to injury) say that long toss is essential to strengthen the muscles of the shoulder to prevent injury and add velocity. The travel coach has had my 2018 RHP (consistent 89 mph at this point) on a very disciplined warmup and long toss routine (gradual increasing distance until max distance maintaining proper mechanics) for several years.

Additionally, UVA Coach Kuhn also says that when long tossing, the ball should not be above two times your height.

Count me as a long toss fan.

Something else to consider as well is the definition of "long toss", or a "long toss program".

There is a huge difference between a planned out program with gradual progression designed for the specific age group / level  - and just telling kids to go out there a chuck the ball as far as they can.

It's probably an issue more confined to youth ball, but it never fails that before games kids are out there doing a "how far can I throw the ball competition", rather than "long tossing".  I've had to reinforce with my youngest a few times that if he has to bounce the ball there, or throw a rainbow, or can't be reasonably accurate - then he is too far out.  At that point you are just practicing doing things wrong.

Are these guys throwing rainbows?

BOF posted:

There is lots of material on the subject. Do the research and decide for yourself. There is way too much information on the subject to get a quick summary from someone like myself or others, but the idea is good to gather up some of the evidence and information. I have literally researched the subject over probably 10 years and put in 100's of hours into it, (not just long toss, but other training including heavy/light balls) but unfortunately did not collate and collect all of my information to hand out, I just did it for my own knowledge to guide my son, which you are doing. 

BTW the ASMI study has some fundamental flaws in their data collection which IMO (and some others) invalidates their conclusions. CADad who used to post here some time ago (who is actually a rocket scientist) pointed them out to AMSI and never received a response. It had to do with the Cosine errors in their velocity measurements. If you are that interested you could probably do some searches and find his comments here.

If it was my son at that age I would either get him into a Wolforth or Driveline program which included heavy/light ball throwing and integrate it with a long toss regime .  BTW I would also have him do "long toss" from his knees for improved arm action, believe me this is huge for someone with poor arm action. They body is amazing on how it can adapt and fix something on its own without a bunch of "pitching lessons".  I personally liked the concept of long toss as it was not "pitching specific" and it had an automatic feedback mechanism for the thrower. If he was throwing well then they can see it in the distance thrown. It got my son out on the field throwing baseballs, I know D'Oh but it is a way to get them more of this activity in, in a controlled and measurable way.  

I have always been a huge believer in cross functional training as it has proven to improve athletic performance in the related event. I always go back to sprint training, as it is the most developed and studied of "speed related" athletics.  They have a combination of under, over, specific, training, as well as weight training to improve speed performance. The weight training is very specific and phased also. You see these types of techniques being applied to pitching now and it does not surprise me that we are seeing the increased velocities of baseball pitchers across the board. Your argument that since pitchers only throw from the mound then they should only throw from the  mound goes out the door if you look at it from the proven training done in other athletic endeavors. 

I really like what Kyle is doing as he is studying it specifically for the throwing a baseball. Wolforth did it before him (and probably to a lesser scientific approach) and Dr John Bagonzi did it before anyone to my knowledge. (he got his PhD on throwing weighted baseballs and is the first to my knowledge to promote them) I got a copy of his thesis and don't know where I put it...

Of course with these velocity increases we will see a corresponding increase in injuries. As PG pointed out, high velocities induce higher loads, and since load is a squared function of velocity  the stress levels are not linear we will continue to see higher injuries in pitching until some of the cross training techniques that Kyle is working on catch up.

So this is a long winded answer to long toss, yes or no, but in reality it should not just be the question of long toss but how do you develop an integrated plan for your son that includes long toss.

Best of luck to you and your boy! 

BOF,

  Believe me, I've done the research and that is sort of the problem, if you can call it that. There is a lot of literature on long toss, but little research other than the one rather light ASMI study. There's a lot of anecdotal evidence as to the benefits. In fact, way to much for me to ignore. However, there is little to explain to me in a way I can grasp as to exactly what is happening physiologically that makes it so beneficial. Nor is there any study that isolates it from other things enough to highlight the direct benefits. For example, there are plenty of narratives of increased velocity while on long toss, but this is almost universally a long toss program that also incorporates several other things; weighted balls, bands, etc. and usually show increases in velocity over long enough periods of time that disallow pinpointing exactly what role long toss plays. This is different than weighted ball work and band work. For weighted ball work I can personally point to substantial velocity increases in short amounts of time that would almost have to have come directly from that work. With weighted balls and band work, in addition, I know exactly what and how they affect the arm.

  The problem I'm having in wrapping my mind around long toss is simply that I don't understand what it is supposed to specifically accomplish towards increasing velocity. I do not, for a minute, doubt the testimony I'm receiving. However, opinions on exactly what is happening to increase velocity are all over the board. Many here have touted the idea that it builds arm strength or shoulder strength, while many very credentialed professionals who advocate its use will tell you that it does nothing to build arm strength and that this isn't the purpose. The late Dr. Bagnozi's work, which I have followed for years, even advocates long toss and admits no knowledge of exactly why it helps (by the way, BOF, I have a copy of his thesis on weighted balls as well - not in digital form, tough).

There definitely is a lot of validity in using a method because the results are shown to be positive even though you can't explain the minute dynamics of the program. I don't have a general problem with that. However, for my own personal use, I've always had a problem using methods I can't explain in detail. I didn't use weighted balls until I felt I could adequately explain why I used them and what they did.

This post wasn't meant to be a quest to question or prove the benefits of long toss,  but rather to question if LT can give me something I don't get with other training methods I'm already using with my kids. Mainly, I want to try and figure out if I'm missing something by having excluded it for all these years.

roothog66 posted:

This post wasn't meant to be a quest to question or prove the benefits of long toss,  but rather to question if LT can give me something I don't get with other training methods I'm already using with my kids. Mainly, I want to try and figure out if I'm missing something by having excluded it for all these years.

When you work out with weighted balls you are challenging the arm to recruit more muscle fibers and training the brain to accelerate the arm by essentially tricking it into repeating the motion with a lighter ball.  You can take radar gun levels to identify the results, record them and challenge yourself to do better.  

Long toss is similar except the distance is equivalent to the velocity.  You organize your body to throw a it's peak performance for distance, recruiting muscle fibers and creating an efficient chain.  Then you bring it in trying to maintain the same velo as the longest throw.  Like Kyle said earlier, some players respond better or prefer to long toss.  You probably aren't missing much if you can convince your players to buy in to a weighted ball technique.

allenb posted:

Are these guys throwing rainbows?

 

That field freaked me out, until I realized it was Canadian. 

I'm sorry that I keep repeating this, but most research regarding injury is incomplete.  We need to question those pitchers that are healthy as well as those injured.

Most pitchers these days do LT, some use weighted ball work and other forms of training.  Most top pitchers play on travel ball teams and attend showcases.  Some throw more than others and some take more time off.

If every professional pitcher was studied, maybe we might learn something. For example... Let's use the topic we are on... Long toss.

Lets say 75% of all TJ Surgeries were on pitchers that utilized long toss.  But 95% of all the pitchers that have not had TJ surgery also used long toss.

What would that tell us?  Guess it might mean something.  Maybe doing all that research will accomplish very little.  The again we won't know until it happens. 

It should be obvious that I'm not a scientist or Doctor.  But when I read studies that show something like 80% of the TJ surgeries are on pitchers that play Travel Ball.  That means very little!  Because most all good pitchers and high velocity pitchers play Travel Ball.  Most TJ surgeries deal with those type pitchers.  Without knowing the number of those that remain healthy that play Travel Ball I can't assume anything.

Most important would be if we found something similar in the path that healthy arms took, that was different than what the majority of injured arms did?  With enough research that might just happen.  Or maybe we just find that there are no answers.

Personally I do believe in the "only so many bullets" theory.  However, one thing has been proven... That number of "bullets" is different for every pitcher.  You might be able to train in order to increase that number, but sooner or later you will run out of bullets.  Of course, one thing for sure, all bullets are not equal.  80 mph bullets will last longer than 100 mph bullets.

Lastly, someone mentioned Karl Kuhn (UVA pitching coach and recruiter) and his record. 

He is someone we see many times each year at our events.  He has recruited many pitchers from those events.  It is interesting to see them stay healthy during their college career.  He is very good, one of the best, but overall DI college baseball has made big strides when it comes to arm care. Especially at the highest levels!

The "going out" phase of long toss and extreme distance throwing helps to develop range of motion in the shoulder at submaximal throwing intent prior to hitting the longest distance. The best reason to "go out" is the auto-regulation you receive in long toss. No radar gun necessary. You know if you make these tweaks or change your intent by a little bit, the ball goes farther or shorter. You line it up better and your command can get better if you try to see what is causing you to spray the ball.

Long toss should be a very mentally taxing event. Just going out there and bombing the ball and not caring where it goes is useless OR even worse due to command regression as a result.

Kyle's point is important. It shouldn't be just throw as far as you can at max effort every throw. The going out phase is far from it. Also the throws need to be accurate. That helps make it more mentally taxing as Kyle points out. Just wining the ball around isn't productive.  I don't know if people really understand how to long toss. Look up Alan Jaeger as he is the biggest proponent out there. Makes a very compelling case as to why LT is crucial. More throwing the better.