Something to look at when picking a college baseball program

Francis:

Where did the Student/athlete play during the Summer? Quality of the Summer League. What are his "true" personal goals?

Bob

@Francis7 posted:

Sure, it's easy to say "He should have outplayed the others and earned more time." But, be honest...what coach is going to give an 18 year old an equal opportunity to beat out a 21 year old when the 21 year old is playing really well.

Every player has an opportunity. It often has nothing to do with age. It has to do with ability, determination and hard work.  If he was that good, why didn't he transfer?

A big thing that I have noticed, for position players, these days you need to be versatile and you need to have a hot bat and a good attitude.  Be ready. Don't take for granted you will eventually get in the game. College rosters are constantly changing.

FWIW, if the coach thought the player could get the job done, he wouldn't be bringing in older guys.

You are making assumptions while you don't know the entire situation.

@TPM posted:

Every player has an opportunity. It often has nothing to do with age. It has to do with ability, determination and hard work.  If he was that good, why didn't he transfer?

A big thing that I have noticed, for position players, these days you need to be versatile and you need to have a hot bat and a good attitude.  Be ready. Don't take for granted you will eventually get in the game. College rosters are constantly changing.

FWIW, if the coach thought the player could get the job done, he wouldn't be bringing in older guys.

You are making assumptions while you don't know the entire situation.

Why didn’t he transfer? It’s not a flippant decision. You are leaving friends, maybe you’ve signed a lease, most importantly…it likely adds a year to a year and a half to graduation.  Beyond that, resumes matter. Saying kids all have the same opportunity to play isn’t always true.

If a player really, I mean, REALLY, wants to play and that's what is important, they will transfer.

Isn't that why the baseball portal is loaded with hundreds and hundreds of players?

@TPM posted:

If a player really, I mean, REALLY, wants to play and that's what is important, they will transfer.

Isn't that why the baseball portal is loaded with hundreds and hundreds of players?

Mostly it’s because they’re getting pushed out. Outside of that, I would say it’s pretty poor decision-making to jump into a portal that is absolutely overcrowded when you have no résumé.

@baseballhs posted:

Mostly it’s because they’re getting pushed out.

That's not always the case. If it is, then it may mean it's time to make a change.

Most programs are not for everyone. Many times it is just  not in a good fit and in many cases coaches will help players find a home, regardless of what they did and didn't do.

Let me tell you a story about my BF son.

They live in Ohio and he adamantly insisted he wanted to only go to Coastal Carolina. After one year it didn't work out. He transfered to Ohio State. Back then you had to sit out a year. Then found out didn't have enough credits that transfered that caused him to sit out another year. By this time it's been 3 years since he went to Coastal.

He did well and got drafted. Signing bonus 10 or 15k. Made MLB.

Went back to work as VA then player development at Ohio State. Now is a coach for the Guardians minor league.

Why I posted this....if someone wants something bad enough they will do what they have to do, no excuses. That's been my experience.

@baseballhs posted:

Mostly it’s because they’re getting pushed out. Outside of that, I would say it’s pretty poor decision-making to jump into a portal that is absolutely overcrowded when you have no résumé.

We know a kid like that. He was a freshman last year who got redshirted. He played in a summer league and the stats were so-so. He really wanted to leave his school but he said he was basically forced to return because nobody would have any interest in him now since the last time he pitched well was in HS back in 2022.

the Recency Bias as alive, a real thing  in baseball, at any and every level of the game.

@TPM posted:

Let me tell you a story about my BF son.

They live in Ohio and he adamantly insisted he wanted to only go to Coastal Carolina. After one year it didn't work out. He transfered to Ohio State. Back then you had to sit out a year. Then found out didn't have enough credits that transfered that caused him to sit out another year. By this time it's been 3 years since he went to Coastal.

He did well and got drafted. Signing bonus 10 or 15k. Made MLB.

Went back to work as VA then player development at Ohio State. Now is a coach for the Guardians minor league.

Why I posted this....if someone wants something bad enough they will do what they have to do, no excuses. That's been my experience.

Google paints a slightly different story:

Before played for the Buckeyes, he first pitched at Coastal Carolina, posting a 2.45 ERA in 14 2/3 innings and striking out 17 as a freshman for the Chanticleers. He only appeared in five games his sophomore year, and that, along with a desire to be closer to his family, led to his chance to pitch for the Buckeyes.

So he sat out of a year in the archaic days of the NCAA transfer rules and then posted a 2.99 ERA in 81 1/3 innings as a starter for Ohio State in his final collegiate season before being drafted in 2013.

In his senior year of HS, he was also a preseason Baseball America All-American.

So, it's not like came out of nowhere, played nothing for 3 years of college and then got on everyone's radar pitching just his senior year in college. He was on people's radar before he got to college and showed some ability his freshman season too.

Francis,

Good for you!!!  But I don't think you understood my point.

Anyway, I did change some things on purpose because it is personal.  He would have stayed but stuff happens.  Google  doesn't always know all of the facts.  He returned because it was not a good fit. He didnt want to sit out anymore than anyone else wants to sit out. Making that decision to leave changed everything.

As I posted earlier if a player really wants to play, they can find a way to make it happen.

Actually he sat out two years, according to wikipedia (and his stat lines).

The point is, everyone is right here.  Some are pushed out of programs, some leave for a whole variety of reasons.  Transferring is not easy, many things are lost, some things are gained.

Bob said it best:

@Consultant posted:

What are his "true" personal goals?

Bob

Degree?  Scholarship?  D1 experience (regardless of playing time)?  Playing as much as possible?  Draft?  Future job in baseball?

I've watched several players on the exact trajectory as Francis7's first example.  I don't talk to the parents or players, so I don't know why they have stayed.  But I'm sure they have reasons.

The ones I know were '19s-'21s, and many got screwed by covid eligibility and transfer portal - in the sense that what they might have expected to happen before 2020 was instead different.  Now with transfers, I don't know how you could look at rosters from the past few years and see anything that would be a useful guide for an individual recruit.

Nothing is impossible and there's always some possibilities. Same program as the OP.  One kid got pretty significant playing time as a freshman. Did relatively OK for a freshman. Was all set to try and improve on that sophomore year. But, that year a new freshman came in - better athlete, better player - and took his job.  So, it's not impossible for a younger player to win playing time.

I guess the main point for recruits is: Coaches want to win. (And, that makes sense and it's their job, etc.)  College coaches are going to play the guys who he thinks are going to help him win. (Again, makes sense and is reasonable.) If there's guys ahead of you on the roster who are playing really well and are "his guys" then you're not going to get much of a chance to play. And, if a program has a history of taking in transfers, that's going to be more people blocking your way. You can look at those types of things before signing.

@Francis7

There a multiple points to be made here.   These are major points.

1) It ALL starts with the recruit (as @Consultant and @anotherparent alluded to)....what is he trying to get out of his college baseball experience.  He is the one selecting or not selecting a particular school.   Are his skills in the ballpark of the baseball program?  How does he know?  Research the heck out of the coaches, rosters, previous rosters, players, former players.  Research the school and their academic programs, majors, minors, learning abroad, post-grad, etc.....  Is it the right fit (or pretty darn close) athletically, academically, socially, etc...  Every school my son looked was not an exact 100% fit...there were some compromises.   However, every recruit should strive to have their compromises be small compromises.

2) I don't want too sound harsh but your story didn't move me.  This happens everywhere and it's a math problem.  9 players play at one time on a team of 35 in D1. That issue is not going away.   Lots of people aren't going to play.  Its a fact that people just don't seem to get...getting on a college baseball field at any level is a huge challenge.   If we go back to 1), there is probably a strong personal reason he stayed on the team.  His reasons to stay at this school are his reasons.

3) There are people who view college baseball as the second reason they are at a particular college.   Yes, there are people who view their study major as the most important thing while at college.  I know in my son's case if baseball became a burden or he wasn't playing,  he probably would have left the team because his time has a lot of value in a challenging major.  Nobody knows for sure what their 4 years is going to look like and it can be a leap of faith.   Make that leap of faith decision based on research, and not the often exaggerated or leading words of the Coach.  There is a lot to consider when picking a college.  Baseball can be the only thing or baseball can be part of a larger picture.  Again, that is all up to the recruit.

As always, JMO.

@Francis7 posted:

Nothing is impossible and there's always some possibilities. Same program as the OP.  One kid got pretty significant playing time as a freshman. Did relatively OK for a freshman. Was all set to try and improve on that sophomore year. But, that year a new freshman came in - better athlete, better player - and took his job.  So, it's not impossible for a younger player to win playing time.

I guess the main point for recruits is: Coaches want to win. (And, that makes sense and it's their job, etc.)  College coaches are going to play the guys who he thinks are going to help him win. (Again, makes sense and is reasonable.) If there's guys ahead of you on the roster who are playing really well and are "his guys" then you're not going to get much of a chance to play. And, if a program has a history of taking in transfers, that's going to be more people blocking your way. You can look at those types of things before signing.

@Francis7

A college roster changes year to year. Nothing should be taken for granted. What a player does in the fall depends on if he plays in the spring. No matter how good he was coming out of HS, or a transfer, he has to compete to play.

Recruiting and setting the roster is a very difficult job and most successful coaches work really hard at making it work and again, it's ever changing, season to season, players get hurt, want to leave, etc.

Very few coaches these days make promises to anyone. They may have the top freshman recruits in the country on staff but those guys have to work real hard to take away the position from the guy who has it. It's harder for position guys than pitchers. Most freshman pitchers are not starters.

You all don't think it was tough when son went to college?  Hardly any transfers but every year you had to work hard to keep your start.

You all know the story of Wyatt Langford. He was a HS superstar who played multiple sports but didn't play as a  freshman. The rest is history. We call him no excuses, Wyatt.

I wanted to mention a positive about Coastal Carolina. They recruit top players, Florida's huge success the past two years has been due to catcher BT Riopelle. Also Florida has a former CC position player who is a substitute and he is awesome coming off the bench. Believe it or not, there are some guys who are really good at that. Of course that depends on the coaching staff as well. Does your HS position player pay attention to that?

FWIW, the best coaches don't hoard players. Make sure during recruiting your player asks about opportunities. Understand the coaches philosophy. He will never tell you if you win the job it's yours to keep.

Never.

Francis:

The "kid" middle infielder, where did he play during the summer? He can control his baseball experience by playing a strong summer program.

What are his defensive strengths? His arm, soft hands, range to left to the right? What is his "baseball Knowledge"?

Bob

Great response @fenwaysouth. At some level, you have to assess the situation and bet on yourself. And you have to be clear what you want to get out of baseball and out of life. For some, the portal is the right option, for others, sticking it out is the way to go. The hardest decision is for those whose baseball journey has reached its end, especially if they don't realize it. I will leave you with these stats of a player at a top SEC baseball program who is killing it in the minors. He stuck it out, bet on himself, and it paid off.

@TPM posted:

If a player really, I mean, REALLY, wants to play and that's what is important, they will transfer.

My son REALLY,REALLY, wanted to play. I begged him to go JUCO and start over. He was bound and determined to prove Nebraska didn't make a mistake recruiting him. And I think to some extent he did, but he had to be forced to, and I will be forever grateful to Will Bolt for doing that.

I don't understand the point of the story. The player in question has become a role player; either thru his inability to capitalize on his opportunities or his inability to play other positions. I bet when the coach was recruiting him he didn't plan on him not being able to separate himself from the pack either.

You've just described a player who has not been a top 4 middle infielder (at least) in this program for 3 years. You described an 18 year old sitting behind 21 year olds. He's a 22 year old now. What has he done do prove he's the guy?

I understand the frustration of sitting behind older more accomplished guys, but the idea that he is going to be handed the job because of service time is just as crazy as him mashing in limited opportunities and continuing to sit the bench for no reason.

My son was a 2015 HS grad that ended up at his first choice (mid-major).  I can't fathom what it's like with a kid being recruited & choosing a school compared to what it was like back then.  Sure he had a few kids come and go from the program over the 4 years, but maybe 5 or 6 total.....not 20+ like you are regularly seeing now, though granted the team wasn't very good so the number of kids wanting to transfer in wasn't huge lol.   At this point I would think an incoming freshman almost has to be going in with the thought that he's not going to play much, if at all (unless of course he is a top level recruit).  Your typical HS star that gets a minimum offer has a long, tough road ahead of him.   Good luck to anyone that's got a son in that situation.  I'm glad my son graduated and got out before it turned crazy, though it would have been fun to see him play another year or two

@Francis7 posted:

Anyway, look at rosters and see if you can find kids like this...and, if you do, factor that in when considering where you want to go play baseball.

I guess everyone's experience informs their perception on things like this. I looked at my son's senior roster (2019). 8 seniors who all started as freshmen together (rare, I know). Only 3 of those guys got playing time for 2 or more years. So, if I understand your post, they had 5 guys who fit your description. In this case, those 5 guys were great teammates and great friends, and were always prepared to fill in when needed. Each had his own reasons for sticking around for 4 years, but I would say this was an indication of a great culture at the program. Again, every situation is different, so I guess my point is that you shouldn't read too much into this characteristic without context.

If playing time is your #1 priority, then go where your talent is demonstrably better than the kids you're competing with. That might mean that the team isn't great, but at least you'll get to play. Actually, one kid that was a freshman with my son didn't play his first year and he transferred to a lower level school. He was a "star" on that team, and played 4 years there.

If a player desire to learn his "true value" to a program.

He can ask the Question. "What summer league will I be assigned"?

Bob