At what level do you tell a pitcher to intentionally throw at a batter?
to all those macho coaches who have no problem with it at the youth and high school level the next time you tell a kid to throw at a batter imagine that batter as maybe one of your players perhaps your son? Hopefully the ball will hit him in a non vulnerable place but can you be sure? hopefully you do not have to explain your actions to the parents of a kid who gets seriously hurt.
Just checked with the catcher from my son’s former high school. He said that the coach NEVER instructed a pitcher to throw at a hitter, and if he thought that a pitcher intentionally tried to they would be on the bench immediately.
That said, between he and the pitcher, they would call a pitch at a hitter at least once or twice during a game. Maybe a brush back maybe a HBP depending on how agile the hitter was.
Never in a close game though and never at the head, and mainly just to brush back and make hitters uncomfortable.
That said, between he and the pitcher, they would call a pitch at a hitter at least once or twice during a game. Maybe a brush back maybe a HBP depending on how agile the hitter was.
Never in a close game though and never at the head, and mainly just to brush back and make hitters uncomfortable.
quote:Originally posted by #22's dad:
. At what age is it o.k to be asking a player to do this. Is it a common occurence at this early age. He is trying out for J.V.
If they have to be told to do it....they're not old enough.
I think its worthwile when your player is young to sit down and discuss what he's going to do if he's ever asked. Last thing you'd want is to assume no coach would ever do that, then to find a 15 y/o having to make a choice while he's on the mound.
I told mine to decide ahead of time, but that if he ever decided to do it, to "KEEP IT DOWN." In the dirt if he has to, but whatever it takes to ensure it doesn't hit anyone above the waist.
I don't think he's ever had to do it, though.
I told mine to decide ahead of time, but that if he ever decided to do it, to "KEEP IT DOWN." In the dirt if he has to, but whatever it takes to ensure it doesn't hit anyone above the waist.
I don't think he's ever had to do it, though.
My son's a 16 yr old catcher, and I'd say his experience is the same as what Floridafan describes.
There's been one game where I saw the other team plunk a kid on my son's team where it was clearly intentional. No idea if the coach called it. My guess is that by the time kids are that age, they have a sense on when those situations might arise, and may know their coach's view on it.
There's been one game where I saw the other team plunk a kid on my son's team where it was clearly intentional. No idea if the coach called it. My guess is that by the time kids are that age, they have a sense on when those situations might arise, and may know their coach's view on it.
quote:Originally posted by scdigger:quote:Originally posted by #22's dad:
. At what age is it o.k to be asking a player to do this. Is it a common occurence at this early age. He is trying out for J.V.
If they have to be told to do it....they're not old enough.
Amen. They know when it's time to protect their teammates.
What is important is how will it make your kid Feel.
Remember don't plunk the Pitcher he may just plunk you back.
My son has been hit after hitting a home run earlier in the game.
We know the coach told the pitcher to hit him.
My son Stole 2nd next hitter hit deep in out field over the kids head, My son scored we won the play off game by 1 run when it was all over.
long ago ( as LLcoach) I made my son hit a batter, he was starting to thorw harder then most on his team and got nervous he was going hurt someone, it was effecting his motion.After he hit the guy he tiped his hat And struck out the next 3 up.
If in HS he was told to hit a batter he will but he won't take them out unless he is playing Catcher.LOL
Remember don't plunk the Pitcher he may just plunk you back.
My son has been hit after hitting a home run earlier in the game.
We know the coach told the pitcher to hit him.
My son Stole 2nd next hitter hit deep in out field over the kids head, My son scored we won the play off game by 1 run when it was all over.
long ago ( as LLcoach) I made my son hit a batter, he was starting to thorw harder then most on his team and got nervous he was going hurt someone, it was effecting his motion.After he hit the guy he tiped his hat And struck out the next 3 up.
If in HS he was told to hit a batter he will but he won't take them out unless he is playing Catcher.LOL
Make sure the young man knows the penalty for throwing at a batter....he or his coach can say "it just slipped" but if in the umpires judgement he deliberately threw at a batter then he will be ejected and suspended for an additional game....
want to get them back?...strike them out...
Now in my 20+ years I have had few deliberatly hit batters sub HS....but I did have one..
13 yr olds...
batter hits a HR and as some 13 yr olds will do, he "big leagued" it around the bases...(think gibson with his arm pump....)
This offended the daddy coach....he called out to the pitcher to remember that batter....so the next time the batter came up, he called out to the catcher "remeber what I said, here he is"....catcher calls out to pitcher..."yea baby"....
I leaned in to the catcher and told him if you hit this kid, Im ejecting all of you .....catcher says coach you better call it off!!....the coach didnt listen, pitcher throws at the batter, hits him in the upper arm and the ball then skips off and hit the kid in the face bloodying his nose.....
I ejected the coach, the catcher and the pitcher......
The coach protested his and his players ejections under the fact he was only following an "unwritten rule" of baseball.....
The protest was denied....the players suspensions were upheld....the coach was suspended for the rest of the year for deliberately injuring a youth player....
want to get them back?...strike them out...
Now in my 20+ years I have had few deliberatly hit batters sub HS....but I did have one..
13 yr olds...
batter hits a HR and as some 13 yr olds will do, he "big leagued" it around the bases...(think gibson with his arm pump....)
This offended the daddy coach....he called out to the pitcher to remember that batter....so the next time the batter came up, he called out to the catcher "remeber what I said, here he is"....catcher calls out to pitcher..."yea baby"....
I leaned in to the catcher and told him if you hit this kid, Im ejecting all of you .....catcher says coach you better call it off!!....the coach didnt listen, pitcher throws at the batter, hits him in the upper arm and the ball then skips off and hit the kid in the face bloodying his nose.....
I ejected the coach, the catcher and the pitcher......
The coach protested his and his players ejections under the fact he was only following an "unwritten rule" of baseball.....
The protest was denied....the players suspensions were upheld....the coach was suspended for the rest of the year for deliberately injuring a youth player....
quote:My son Stole 2nd next hitter hit deep in out field over the kids head, My son scored we won the play off game by 1 run when it was all over.
Plunking a kid in a close game? What coach gives the other team the most important base for nothing in a close game?
Would you intentionally walk the other team's power hitter with no one on base and a one run lead?
Rob Kremer
My son's run didn't win the game right then,we where losing and vistiors but after the last inn we won by 1. Would of been extra inn's if no plunk happend.
We had played this team many times they knew us( I helped coach ) my son was the next pitcher they knew- as he just warmed up. We came back to win.
My son's run didn't win the game right then,we where losing and vistiors but after the last inn we won by 1. Would of been extra inn's if no plunk happend.
We had played this team many times they knew us( I helped coach ) my son was the next pitcher they knew- as he just warmed up. We came back to win.
Wow
piaa_ump
Never though of it that way glad the kid my son hit was a neighbor, plus it was a leg shot.
Not like you have to yell if you have hand sign's.
Mine was over 6years ago son has hit a few after that not sure if any where plunks I only help coach the rec teams, travel ball is for watching or base coach
piaa_ump
Never though of it that way glad the kid my son hit was a neighbor, plus it was a leg shot.
Not like you have to yell if you have hand sign's.
Mine was over 6years ago son has hit a few after that not sure if any where plunks I only help coach the rec teams, travel ball is for watching or base coach
well,my son is a pitcher on varsity. their varsity team, as i understand, has a sign for 'plunking' a batter but has never been used. just in case of emergency, i guess.
Pitching in to hit a player is for very high level pitchers with good control. I know I did it a couple of times in college. Once because the pitcher drilled our number 4 after he hit a homer (the guy I hit was a friend,) and once when the third base coach was bad mouthing our coach. When I did it it was to protect a player or my team. Also, only done with a fastball at the butt. This is not something that anyone but an experienced player with control should consider. The safety of the players must almost take priority. As a coach one time I talked to a pitcher after a game about this. Situation, first round pick pitching to our lead-off hitter. Our hitter goes 2 for 2 off him. Next at bat he gets nailed. This pitcher had 3 walks all year. I let my starter know after the game that he must protect his team-mates and explained the situation and how to handle it if it came up in college in his future.
I would also add that I NEVER drilled a guy for hitting one out on me. If I gave up a homer it was either my mistake, or the guy made a good swing. Either way, it would be ignorant of me to drill a player for that. Moving a guy off the plate is a different story.
What's all the fuss about.....aren't these the same kids who launch frozen rope line drives right back through the middle at pitcher's heads with 300 dollar super bats supplied by parents who could care less about the danger posed to the pitcher?
quote:Originally posted by PA Dino:
What's all the fuss about.....aren't these the same kids who launch frozen rope line drives right back through the middle at pitcher's heads with 300 dollar super bats supplied by parents who could care less about the danger posed to the pitcher?
Show me a kid who can deliberately hit a ball right back at a pitcher when he wants to.......
ridiculous comparison....
thats apples and oranges....
You are a piaa umpire and you don't believe there are any high school and/or legion players that could rope a line drive right back at a pitcher if they so desired? They can hit the ball to the right side to score a third base runner, they can hit a deep fly ball to the outfield to do the same, they can pull one down the line if necessary or hit one to right field.....c'mon. I can show you as many kids as you want me to that could do it if they wanted to. There is so much talent discrepancy in Pennsylvania baseball that the average high school pitcher in Pennsylvania would be a sitting duck if hitters chose to target them. Of course, the accuracy of a batted ball is not so easy to control as the thrown ball but the intent to harm is still there. Are you really saying, that if the rules of the game changed and somehow you could score a run by hitting the pitcher with a line drive, you would feel as confident with being on the bump? I don't know how you can make such a ridiculous comment? Since you asked, want just one example - How about Devin Meseraco , 1st round draft pick for Cinncinnati out of Dubois, PA.
Hitting a ball to one side of of the diamond in a 90' space is far different from being able to target a player with a batted ball....
not sure Ted Williams could have done that....
and yes, in 20+ years as an umpire, Ive never seen anyone (HS,Legion or College) who could target and hit a live game speed pitched ball directly and delberately at a player with any reasonable accuracy.....
Those that get hit are hit at random....
Now if you were talking about a coach with a fungo, then you might have a point.....
not sure Ted Williams could have done that....
and yes, in 20+ years as an umpire, Ive never seen anyone (HS,Legion or College) who could target and hit a live game speed pitched ball directly and delberately at a player with any reasonable accuracy.....
Those that get hit are hit at random....
Now if you were talking about a coach with a fungo, then you might have a point.....
A little different perspective. My son was 16 years old. When not pitching he was an outfielder and in this game that was the position he was playing. There was a close play at home when his team was on the field (he was not involved at all). Next at bat (several batters later), my son was plunked. He took first base and after the next batter hit and he was advancing to second I looked and he was laying in the middle of the field with players and coaches around him. Ten days later we get to take him home from intensive care. Ruptured splean. My 16 year old told the coach of other team when he called that if you didn't do it on purpose great but if you did, you have to live with it. Couldn't have been more proud of him. I asked him what he would have done had he been instructed to hit a batter and he said you have to do what your instructed to do but he would throw an off speed pitch. A friend of ours met the mom of the kid that beaned him and several years later the pitcher is still struggling with the fact he hurt him to the point I don't think he's playing anymore.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by RJM:quote:Originally posted by cball:
What it gets down to is it's an intentional assault. You "dot" one of my sons and it gets away and injures him you better have a lot of liability insurance or I get your house.
This is why at higher levels of ball the coaches don't call for it. They let the pitcher take care of business. Then the pitcher says the pitch got away. There's no way to prove otherwise.
What coach hands the ball to a pitcher for his first time up and tells him to plunk someone?
This is exactly why I simply say the pros only. No coach in their right mind is gonna tell a pitcher to maim a hitter. The pros will police it on their own when sending a message. They are all earning a living and are responsible for their own actions. Any level lower than this, they're not. Plus, the pros have the command to send a message to a hitter when the occasion comes up where as the amateur don't.
The idea of coaches head hunting at the JV level is real scary since these aren't even varsity level players and everyone knows the huge gap in talent level (especially pitching)and ability between JV and varsity to begin with.
piaa_ump- I agree 100%. That post actually got me to laugh. I don't even know many coaches, if any, that can pinpoint a ball with that kind of precision. PA Dino I have never in my entire life heard of anyone, at any level, ever, be able to intentionally hit a ball in an exact spot like you say. And if that's what happens in Pennsylvania high school baseball, well then I guess I should just hang up my spikes because those kids are light years ahead of my ability
quote:Originally posted by PA Dino:
You are a piaa umpire and you don't believe there are any high school and/or legion players that could rope a line drive right back at a pitcher if they so desired? They can hit the ball to the right side to score a third base runner, they can hit a deep fly ball to the outfield to do the same, they can pull one down the line if necessary or hit one to right field.....c'mon. I can show you as many kids as you want me to that could do it if they wanted to. There is so much talent discrepancy in Pennsylvania baseball that the average high school pitcher in Pennsylvania would be a sitting duck if hitters chose to target them. Of course, the accuracy of a batted ball is not so easy to control as the thrown ball but the intent to harm is still there. Are you really saying, that if the rules of the game changed and somehow you could score a run by hitting the pitcher with a line drive, you would feel as confident with being on the bump? I don't know how you can make such a ridiculous comment? Since you asked, want just one example - How about Devin Meseraco , 1st round draft pick for Cinncinnati out of Dubois, PA.
Seriously.......???
quote:piaa_ump- I agree 100%. That post actually got me to laugh. I don't even know many coaches, if any, that can pinpoint a ball with that kind of precision. PA Dino I have never in my entire life heard of anyone, at any level, ever, be able to intentionally hit a ball in an exact spot like you say. And if that's what happens in Pennsylvania high school baseball, well then I guess I should just hang up my spikes because those kids are light years ahead of my ability
Laughable? Exact spot? No I'm talking in a general region that makes it more likely that the pitcher will be hit and injured. I'm also talking in supposition not actuality......hitters don't target pitchers because 1.) they haven't trained to hit the ball at the pitcher and 2.) there is no benefit to it.....if you have a point to make, you just have the pitcher send the message for you, it's much simpler and more effective. If you tell an entire team to go to bat and drive the ball up the middle toward the pitcher, disregarding situational hitting, trying to win the game, etc. you can't mean to tell me that the pitcher would be at no increased risk. Is that what you are saying? Because if the pitcher's skill level (say as the OP suggested is JV) then I've seen some pretty poor velocity coming from a JV pitcher and I've seen some talented hitters playing down at JV comparatively speaking.
Perhaps my analogy is in fact off base.....like the laugh the Wright Brothers got at Kitty Hawk or the scoffing Noah put up with when he built that big boat. I'm thick skinned. I can take it. I've been laughed at before. My answer is: "So What? You prove them wrong."
Directly to the point of the OP though....... and this is my final word on it because I find the internet forum to be a terrible venue for debate:
If his kid is asked to throw a bean ball at a player, he should decide for himself if it's the right thing to do or not and then follow through without worry of any legal consequences. Being hit intentionally by a pitcher is an inherent risk a player assumes when he steps in the batter's box. Now if he can't handle the fact that he inflicted pain or injury to another person, then he shouldn't be throwing at anyone in the first place and maybe he shouldn't be pitching.
Your initial argument was that the parents, the same parents who were questioning the morality of having a teenager intentionally throw a baseball at another person, is ethically contradicting their actions because they choose to buy their sons baseball bats that cost several hundred dollars, which inherently cause a higher risk of injury for said pitcher.
You then went on to say that the concept of a pitcher intentionally throwing a pitch at a batter is the same as the concept of having a batter intentionally hitting a ball back at the pitcher. A few went on to respond by saying that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to actually intentionally hit a ball directly back at the pitcher and be successful in doing so.
You then talk about the discrepancy in skill level among high school baseball players, which I am inclined to agree with for obvious reasons. Yes, there is a large deviation in talent among high school players in general.
You then went on to state that because of this skill difference, a player is more likely to hit the ball at the pitcher because he is, overall, better. Ok, I can agree with that concept also.
You then went on to say that players don't hit the ball back at a pitcher more because they "don't want to". What? I've been playing organized baseball since I was 5 years old and I've always been taught that hitting the ball hard up the middle was the appropriate way to approach an at-bat. Now generally speaking if a pitcher is not at the same skill level as a hitter, and the hitter found himself getting a pitch that was well over the plate and fairly easy to hit hard, then he will generally hit the ball hard to the middle of the field.
To say that there are "many" high school baseball players that can hit the ball intentionally back at the pitcher is a statement that I can confidently say is 100% wrong. Are there guys that can hit the ball in a specific area whenever they want? Obviously there are, as you demonstrated with your examples of hitting the ball the other way or hitting a fly ball. But to say intentionally throwing a pitch at a batter is the same as a hitter hitting the ball back up the middle causes me, and I'm sure some others here, to scratch my head. Since the spring of 2009 I have thrown a total of 150 1/3 innings between my college seasons and my summer ball seasons. In those innings, I have faced no one that is under the skill level of a college baseball player. Some were .190 9-hole hitters, and some were million dollar draft picks that are big-time MLB prospects. In those 150 1/3 innings, I have had one ball that has been hit off the bat that has struck me with enough force that it inflicted some sort of pain. This was a one-hop groundball that ricocheted off my shin and trickled towards 3rd base. So my argument in response is: How can you make the argument that there are many high school baseball players in the state of Pennsylvania that are capable of consistently and intentionally hitting the ball back at a pitcher when in my experience, as a 6'0" 190 lbs. college level pitcher, I have been struck with a batted ball one time in 150 1/3 innings pitched?
You then went on to say that the concept of a pitcher intentionally throwing a pitch at a batter is the same as the concept of having a batter intentionally hitting a ball back at the pitcher. A few went on to respond by saying that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to actually intentionally hit a ball directly back at the pitcher and be successful in doing so.
You then talk about the discrepancy in skill level among high school baseball players, which I am inclined to agree with for obvious reasons. Yes, there is a large deviation in talent among high school players in general.
You then went on to state that because of this skill difference, a player is more likely to hit the ball at the pitcher because he is, overall, better. Ok, I can agree with that concept also.
You then went on to say that players don't hit the ball back at a pitcher more because they "don't want to". What? I've been playing organized baseball since I was 5 years old and I've always been taught that hitting the ball hard up the middle was the appropriate way to approach an at-bat. Now generally speaking if a pitcher is not at the same skill level as a hitter, and the hitter found himself getting a pitch that was well over the plate and fairly easy to hit hard, then he will generally hit the ball hard to the middle of the field.
To say that there are "many" high school baseball players that can hit the ball intentionally back at the pitcher is a statement that I can confidently say is 100% wrong. Are there guys that can hit the ball in a specific area whenever they want? Obviously there are, as you demonstrated with your examples of hitting the ball the other way or hitting a fly ball. But to say intentionally throwing a pitch at a batter is the same as a hitter hitting the ball back up the middle causes me, and I'm sure some others here, to scratch my head. Since the spring of 2009 I have thrown a total of 150 1/3 innings between my college seasons and my summer ball seasons. In those innings, I have faced no one that is under the skill level of a college baseball player. Some were .190 9-hole hitters, and some were million dollar draft picks that are big-time MLB prospects. In those 150 1/3 innings, I have had one ball that has been hit off the bat that has struck me with enough force that it inflicted some sort of pain. This was a one-hop groundball that ricocheted off my shin and trickled towards 3rd base. So my argument in response is: How can you make the argument that there are many high school baseball players in the state of Pennsylvania that are capable of consistently and intentionally hitting the ball back at a pitcher when in my experience, as a 6'0" 190 lbs. college level pitcher, I have been struck with a batted ball one time in 150 1/3 innings pitched?
quote:If you tell an entire team to go to bat and drive the ball up the middle toward the pitcher, disregarding situational hitting, trying to win the game, etc. you can't mean to tell me that the pitcher would be at no increased risk. Is
I dont know about anyone else, but I've always been instructed to try to hit line drives back up the middle. I will go as far as saying it is impossible for a batter to hit balls directly at players with intent to injure against game pitching. Quite frankly your argument holds no water.
As a catcher I have never instructed a pitcher to intentionally hit a batter. Many times though, my coach or I have told our pitchers to brush a batter back or throw behind him for the usual reasons (show-boating, faking a bunt on 3-0, etc.) but never for good performance.
A humorous note (humorous looking back) on intentionally hitting the ball up the middle. No one was hurt in this demonstration. Do not try this at home.
When I got separated my wife and I were on the same softball team. She was throwing BP. She threw a pitch on the outside corner. I screamed it up the middle within a couple of inches of her head. She threw a ball at me and screamed "You are such a bleep bleeeeeeep. You did that on purpose." and walked off the field. I was just hitting the ball where it was pitched.
When I got separated my wife and I were on the same softball team. She was throwing BP. She threw a pitch on the outside corner. I screamed it up the middle within a couple of inches of her head. She threw a ball at me and screamed "You are such a bleep bleeeeeeep. You did that on purpose." and walked off the field. I was just hitting the ball where it was pitched.
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Yup...she's right on the money!
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- "You are such a bleep bleeeeeeep."
Yup...she's right on the money!
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Last fall I played a very arrogant team with an even more arrogant pitcher. The pitcher continuously bragged after hitting a double and single, claiming, "you can't throw me fastball, I eat them all day." It just so happens that I hit home runs off of both his fastball and his curve. After some more showboating from the pitcher, I respectfully said (as respectful as it could have been) I hit a homerun off of your fastball, and off of your curve, what are you bragging about?
We played that team the following week with the same pitcher. First pitch of the game the ball is thrown directly at me but I dodge it. The opposing coach yells, a little more inside. The following pitch is throw head level, right behind me. I hit a grounball that at bat and the shortstop bobbled it and didn't make the throw. The first basemen was standing on the bag and as I guess I could have avoided, I ran right through him (no lowered shoulder, clean hit). I told the first basman to thank his pitcher for that.
The point of my story is that some pitchers do throw at batters. But let you son know that others on his team might be put in danger if he intentionally hits someone against the wrong team.
We played that team the following week with the same pitcher. First pitch of the game the ball is thrown directly at me but I dodge it. The opposing coach yells, a little more inside. The following pitch is throw head level, right behind me. I hit a grounball that at bat and the shortstop bobbled it and didn't make the throw. The first basemen was standing on the bag and as I guess I could have avoided, I ran right through him (no lowered shoulder, clean hit). I told the first basman to thank his pitcher for that.
The point of my story is that some pitchers do throw at batters. But let you son know that others on his team might be put in danger if he intentionally hits someone against the wrong team.