Speaking of bush league

Immoral, unethical, Bondsisque. Do you really believe in winning at all cost?

All is fair in love,war AND BASEBALL

I think that your league or association needs more attentive umpires. In a two man crew a HP umpire that misses a play like that becasue he was watching a runner score when there is no play being made on that runner should have his ball bag taken away. Umpires have ears. I had a similar play pulled on me with a 1 man crew, only it was runners at 1st and 3rd. No one was very pleased in the end.

The funny thing is that I was the one banned to the dugout for the rest of the game. I went nuts. I yelled at the umps and coaches. I could not have been ejected, I didnt have an assitant coach with me that day. He had class. Or i would have been.

Me and the opposing coach have yet to talk since and this was 2 years ago now. I doubt it will ever happen.

Flint,

Let me explain myself. When I thought it was cool, I was a player in college. As I became a coach, I realized such a play was not worth doing just to win.

I never would have even thought to try this play either in college or as a coach.

On one hand it's amazing you can get away with it but on the other it's so wrong on so many levels.

I wouldn't want to do it becasue if the ump happens to be paying attention you get two outs on the play - the batter going to first and the runner cutting across the IF. I wouldn't want to crush a rally to try something like that.

I've never been able to figure out where this Bush league is, what level or age are we talking? I had a friend who said they ran it about 6 times and a few times some members of the other team got ejected.( shortstop and coach) I think most people would think it was awesome and cool if their team ran it, but the same people would be livid if someone turned the table and ran it on them! I saw a college team pull the hidden ball trick at 2nd in a conference tourny and some people got tossed, I thought it was funny and it sure created some excitement, but I did not have a player on either team. I'm sure I'd have been fuming if it had been run against my sons team. In high school we had a homerun hit against us in the first inning by a team that was ranked very high, our CF raised both hands to show that it had bounced over and the umps only gave the batter a dbl. The other team was so upset they played like **** the rest of the game and we run ruled them!

TR, say it ain't so! You have always struck me as a man of great integrity. Your reply to this post implies that you support cheating if you can get away with it.

Hmm... I dunno.., He always struck me as a hard core baseball man who was going to take what you gave him in baseball. An honest man yes, but baseball is a game and trickery in baseball is different than trickery in business IMHO

It is cheating, plain and simple. We are coaching kids...do we really want to teach them how to cheat better than they already know how to?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
All is fair in love,war AND BASEBALL

Tr's either joking or it does explain alot about his defending of Barry Bonds

quote:

Originally posted by Innocent Bystander:
I think most people would think it was awesome and cool if their team ran it, but the same people would be livid if someone turned the table and ran it on them!

I saw a college team pull the hidden ball trick at 2nd in a conference tourny and some people got tossed, I thought it was funny and it sure created some excitement, but I did not have a player on either team. I'm sure I'd have been fuming if it had been run against my sons team.

bystander I disagree that most people would think it was cool if their team did it. It's cheating and IMO would take away much if not all joy of winning.

As far as trick plays (hidden ball trick etc...) perfectly legal...would upset me if my team fell for it but it is not cheating.

Actually all is not fair in baseball. Everything goes is still okay in love and war.

The NFHS Rule 3-3.g.4 states that the offender can be ejected for.....behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirt of fair play.

Unethical! Uncalled for! Not the type of person I'd want my child to play for. If that coach was not in my conference, he'd have a hole in his schedule for the next year. If I don't respect a program, I don't want to play them. If it were in conference, you'd better bet I'd be on the phone that night to every other conference coach. I'd hang that coach out to dry in every venue I'd get a chance to. Count on it!

quote:

or it does explain alot about his defending of Barry Bonds

Yes it does.

If I'm pitching when this happens.... next guy get drilled, no questions asked. All is fair, if you want to pull that cr^p, be prepared for the consesquences.

The conference principals got together and wrote him and his staff a letter saying that thattype of behavior was unacceptable and it will not be tolerated again.

TR,
Did you read the first line of Coach B25's response?

Hard to believe but I'm almost as disappointed in your response to this as to your response to steroid use.

BTW, our umpire association has been instructed to watch out for this and to toss the coach and player involved and then send a report to the AD.

Cheating is cheating. You have to let the umpires make the calls and I certainly don't expect a player to tell an umpire he missed a tag or anything like that but if one of my players cheats he's gone.

Unethical. There is no way that I could take pride in winning a game by cheating. If you have the best team, you play the right way and beat the other team. If you try to cheat against me, I will openly tell you and my team that you are admitting you have a weak team and cannot beat us by playing the game. Trick plays that fall within the rules are fine and clever. When you develop a play that is clearly against the rules, you are weak and desperate. We play hard and play to win, we do not play out of desperation and we do not play dirty.

Any moron coach who is so desperate for a win that they resort to cheating needs to be run from the game at any and all levels. We have one of these gems in our area, encourages kids to remain on base after they are called out, etc... Funny thing is he is finding it harder and harder to put a team together as each year passes and honest players and parents refuse to drink the cool aid. It's bad enough they are wasting good oxygen but to allow them to continue teaching players this nonsense is truly disturbing.

Pretty sure none of my boys have ever tried that stunt, BUT.., I have a daughter-in-law who I absolutely LOVE who say's she's already done it. I think it's a bold move but I'm pretty sure you don't go to jail for it! I'm certainly not going to get all high and mighty and judge someone else for doing it. I don't think it's anywhere close to underage drinking, smoking weed-pot whatever, cheating on taxes, stealing from your employer, steroids, or even speeding and running stop signs. Baseball is a game, players and coaches steal signs and and pretend somebody is out when they d*rn well know that he's not, if I was really honest maybe I should tell the ump if I miss a base or a tag. I've had coaches yell "hit the pitcher between the eyes" loudly while looking at my son who was 3 years younger than the batter. That bothered me a whole lot more than somebody cutting a corner. My son was up to bat and the other team brought in their biggest kid to purposely throw at him, probably could have killed him as he was older and twice the size of my son! That's okay but don't you dare cut a corner. I would rather see the other team take a chance that the ump doesn't see them cutting a corner on the infield than taking out my sons knee at a base.
Sure I think it's cheating but most people will cheat as much as you let them in a game, I know Jordan did.

In my mind trying work an umpire (foolish) or a player trying to get an edge is a heck of a lot different than a coach instructing players to cheat. One who would ask his players to injure another is even more despicable. Missing a base, sweeping a tag, etc. all had the intent to play the game within the rules. No rule requires you to report your mistakes, it ain't golf. How did that Jordan do in baseball ?

In response to 'Boyinr' saying that the umps must not be paying attention, they are actually in the right position on this call. The field umpire has the play at 1B and has his back turned and the HP umpire is in position for any possible play at the plate. This is just a loop hole that can be used with a 2 man crew. With a 3 man crew, this will never be pulled off.

Jordan? Not so good with the baseball, a little tougher than he thought!
Do you think it's possible that I'm just a tad on the defensive side because a good friend AND my dear sweet d-in-law ran the play in question?

I did not say the umpires were out of position. The post described the play as going to first with no play being made at the plate. With no play being made at the plate and the field umpire having the play at first, the home plate umpire should be picking up the remaining baserunner for a possible play at third or home.

Another question is...did the defense appeal the base runner missing the base? Without this appeal the umpire is under no obligation to bring this to the defenses' attention. The Umpire can only call the player out for not keeping in the spirit of fair play if in his "judgement" the act was intentional. It would also be hard to during the game to judge if this was an intentional team strategy or just an individual making a poor decision.

(Stand on soap box)
In my own opinion, if a coach has tuaght this type of a play he cheated his players out of some real instruction some where along the line. I have never been blessed with too much practice time. What happens if the next batter gets injured due to the pitcher getting pi$$ed off? How does "Cheater Coach" feel now and how does it explain/brag about what he did to the injured player and his parents? Every decision has choices and consequences.

(Step down from the soap box and leave on my high horse )

Boyinr,

There was an appeal w/ the umps, a conversation w/ the umps, an arguement w/ the umps, a shouting match w/ the opposing coach. In that order.

I was then sent to the dugout and could not leave, for my inappropriate language.

Maybe I am just sore still, but I have and always feel that the coach was (and still is) hurting his own players in many ways. High school sports are to build character and it is a shame that this is the type of character that is being taught at some programs.

quote:

Originally posted by Innocent Bystander:
Jordan? Not so good with the baseball, a little tougher than he thought!
Do you think it's possible that I'm just a tad on the defensive side because a good friend AND my dear sweet d-in-law ran the play in question?

IB gotta admire a man who sticks with the clan. Was it in softball ? If so all is forgiven, seen a few games, those girls are just vicious.

Here's another one, from a few years ago, that led to many heated words, an article in the sports section of the local paper, letters to the editor, and the dismissal of the offending coach.

It's called the 'steal during a timeout' play and is quite simple. Runners on first and third is the usual scenario. Defense calls timeout for a conference on the mound or whatever. Third base coach calls the runner from first over to so he can talk to him and the runner at third. We see this all the time. But, when the runner goes to return to first after the timeout, he goes to second instead.

When this play was pulled, the defense did not notice until a pitch had been thrown to the batter. When the defense protested, the offensive coach (in more ways than one!) argued that once a pitch was thrown, the runner had the right to stay at second. He won that battle but ultimately lost the war. I do not remember if the play affected the outcome of the game.

I'm sure as most of you know that this play has been around forever and that it takes advantage of one of the known deficiencies of the 2 man umpiring system.....as noted before, this cant happen in 3 man, but you almost never see 3 man in HS until the playoffs.....

Although the 2 man system can make it very difficult for the umpiring crew to see all the unfolding action and related touches in this play, it does not alleviate us from the responsiblity of those touches......

In training young umpires, we tell them to follow the ball, and glance at the runners...and it is in training that the time to follow and time to glance is prioritized.

In the play, The HP umpire has the ball immediatley off the bat.....fair or foul....decide....the action of the catcher/batter.....any interference/obstruction???.....decide.....clean field of the ball?......

I know I have a runner from 3rd coming in to home, now I glance to see the runner tag home....then back to the batter/runner....interference??....decide, now here is the point of assumption, I need to make an assumption here......either the runner will not interfere (which I have based on his position going up the line) or I assume the runner from 2nd has touched 3rd......because I have to glance again at the runner at 3rd for the touch....

Most often I will throw the glance towards the touch at 3rd......Ive based this decision on a number of factors....Ive been in this situation hundreds of times....I look at the runner on second if he is the less speedy clean up hitter, I may lean more to staying on the tag of home and the play at first....if its the speedster shortstop......its decision time......

Ive also been the HP umpire when a coach did call this play and as you all know even though the stands saw the cut base at third......I cant call what I didnt see.....

Ive also been the HP umpire when the player cut the bag and my glance caught him entering the grass cutout well ahead of the base......the 3rd base coach also saw me see it......he attempted the call the runner back and the first baseman gunned him out trying to get back to the bag.....

Is it bush?.......I'll leave that to you to decide...

Being an old timer I never heard of such a play I guess in my coaching days i spent too much time playing by th rules. Let me tell you something. If somebody pulled that **** on my team i would not be too happy. He would get an earfull. Oh sorry I am an old timer and the game has passed me by. But class is class and this is no class.

This is a good topic, and I have had one of my players make this decision on his own. And no, I did not draw the attention of the ump and call my player out.

So, all of this leads to the question. Where is the line between trick/bush league play and unethical?

Perhaps I missed something. Did anyone here say that bringing in a Big Kid to intentionally throw at anyone was OK? Or that the "play" was an indictable offense?

Of course there are any number of tactics in baseball that are in the gray area --- good gamesmanship or cheating? But IMO, cutting a base is Bush and cheap. I also don't agree that most people would think it's cool, at any age.

When my son was 11 and in LL, the Big Deal Coach (successful because his grandson was fortunate to be born amongst a particularly large and athletically gifted crop of players) taught this play. My son was younger, so we often stayed to see that Senior League team games. When we saw this "play" run, his revulsion was palpable.

One can only think that the offending coach must have so completely taught each of his players every single aspect of the game and the talents required for their position (and that they have all assimmilated same) that he has nothing left to teach during practice than ways to cheat and show up both the opposition and the umpires.

Either that, or he has no principles.

I know which way I'd vote.

That's funny, because I heard my friend tell quite a few people how they used to run this play. Not once did I ever hear anyone say, that's wrong or that's just bush. The only responses I heard were more like, wow that's awesome, does that really work? When somebody ran trick plays against US our people would be quick to say "that's bush".
It cracks me up how people get on here and act so righteous and want to hang somebody for the play in question, but themselves break the law or live questionable lives.
Baseball is a game and not as sacred as some folks make it out to be. My boys never tried this, but if they did I would only call it a risky move. I just don't see what the big deal is. I would guess quite a few "wonderful" people have done this, including my daughter-in-law.
A man once said, "judge not that ye be not judged" and "let the first stone come from the sinless hands".
Great athletes in every sport will cheat as much as they think they can get by with, some forms of cheating are against the law, some might get you thrown out of the game, running the play in question most likely will only get the runner called, out!

It's bush.

Yes, IB, you're probably being defensive because your daughter-in-law ran the "play". You're also being offensive suggesting that posters who find the play bush are somehow less than savory characters themselves:

"It cracks me up how people get on here and act so righteous and want to hang somebody for the play in question, but themselves break the law or live questionable lives."

There's no reason to take the discussion to such extremes.

I also don't feel there's any reason to teach young ballplayers to (literally) cut corners in an effort to beat the system. We talk often on this board about the positive life lessons baseball teaches. If we hope they take the spirit of teamwork, hard work, and personal improvement off the field, we can also expect them to take the lesson that an authority figure encourages cheating off the field with them as well.

One of the many lessons of baseball is being able to take public criticism about your playing abilities without presuming that the coach personally dislikes you or that, say, not hitting the cutoff man makes you an inherently bad person. It would seem you missed that point.

You're right, I've been offensive and I'm sorry. I just hate it when I hear people using words like- bush, cheap, immoral, unethical, bondsisque, palpable revulsion, no class etc. in connection with people I love.

There's a differance between bush and cheating.

Bush is legal but show's questionable character.

Cheating=gaining an unfair advantage by deception or breaking the rules.

That play is Cheating.
There is no glory in cheating to win.
It doesn't even make you feel good.

IB, They are not great Athlete's if they cheated to win.
There just fooling themselve's.

I know what you mean we should not get on are High Horse.
Thinking were all perfect and everything.
But I would try to change that behavior if possible.

EH

I'm with glove man.
Next hitter gets smoked and it's over.

quote:

There's a differance between bush and cheating.

EH

You hit the nail on the head. If you Teach this tactic you are teaching your kids to cheat because the object is to circumvent the rules.

[QUOTE by EH] I know what you mean we should not get on are High Horse.
Thinking were all perfect and everything.
But I would try to change that behavior if possible. [/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree more. I have a friend who resigned his position as asst coach for a HS team because head coach was teaching the cut third bag trick to his team. He felt he had to take a stand based on honoring the game and the rules we all agree to play by; so he did it.

He also made a point of being honest with each player who asked him exactly why he was leaving. Coach eventually stopped using the play, but not until lost an excellent assistant.

Maybe if more time was spent on teaching the fundamentals of the game you would not need a to resort to breaking the rules.