sports parents (King Richard)

Absolutely

But Bob, I am sure you could achieve the physical and mechanical results by simply training and not playing in games.  But how would you hone the "sixth tool"?  The ability to compete?

Anotherparent"

If you include "mock" baseball games [workup] to develop the 6th tool and the knowledge of the game can be learn from reading stories of Willie, Ted and many others especially the managers.

Bob

@anotherparent posted:

(because we haven't had a Crazy Sports Parent thread in a while)

I just saw the new movie King Richard, about the father of Venus and Serena Williams.  One point seemed to be that he pushed them to train insanely hard, but at the same time he never yelled at them about their performance, and kept asking if they were having fun.  He wouldn't let them compete on the junior tennis circuit so as not to put too much stress on them.  Obviously, it worked.

Thoughts?  Could this work for a team sport like baseball?

But could you get ALL the parents in a team sport like baseball (12+ sets of parents in little league, 12-20 sets in travel ball, 24-30 sets in high school, 34+ in college) to agree to train (their son) insanely hard, and never yell at them, and keep asking if they are having fun?  Individually, sure.

FWIW- Because of this site (a similar thread), before every college game, I texted my son to play hard, do his best, have fun, and that I loved him.  He got tired of it, but hey, I'm the parent.

I would disagree with the premise they did not compete.  They competed very hard every day because they had each other to compete against.  His premise was he didn't want a watered down version of tennis.  He wanted them to compete but against equal competition or better.  I've been told that they leave out a part of the story that he would pay professionals to come in and compete against them .  If you could compete in a closed environment you would not need to go outside that closed environment to compete.  If I had a couple of sons the same age or a group of guys who were compelled to work equally hard I would have never had to go play travel ball.  You could go pitcher against hitter and vice versa but that world does not exist in baseball like it does in tennis.  He had the perfect world.  He may have never yelled but he used other things that were just as bad in real life.

I think the single most important element of all of this has nothing to do with baseball. It's critically important to help children understand that it's consistent, productive effort (some might say, "hard work") that provides the necessary linkage between ability and achievement; regardless of the nature of the objective. They learn over time that improvement brings positive results, which inevitably causes them to have fun in the process.

My father was one of those who had all the ability in the world, but he never seemed to understand the necessity of applying oneself diligently to a pursuit. He taught my brother and me this lesson through a lifetime of repeated frustrations.

Beginning at an early age, I made sure that my sons knew the need to apply themselves consistently to whatever they chose to do. It's ended up making a big, positive difference in both of their lives; despite the fact that they chose very different paths to follow.

@PitchingFan posted:

I would disagree with the premise they did not compete.  They competed very hard every day because they had each other to compete against.  His premise was he didn't want a watered down version of tennis.  He wanted them to compete but against equal competition or better.  I've been told that they leave out a part of the story that he would pay professionals to come in and compete against them .  If you could compete in a closed environment you would not need to go outside that closed environment to compete.  If I had a couple of sons the same age or a group of guys who were compelled to work equally hard I would have never had to go play travel ball.  You could go pitcher against hitter and vice versa but that world does not exist in baseball like it does in tennis.  He had the perfect world.  He may have never yelled but he used other things that were just as bad in real life.

I agree. Being two sisters who were super good was a big advantage as they could play a very good opponent every day.

I think without that sister competition aspect not playing tournaments would have worked less good.

I also read an interview with a former top coach who had worked with male and female speed skaters who said that generally girls like the process of training more while boys generally get bored from training a lot when they can't play competitions, they train to win.

He said his girls worked harder, complained less and could tolerate more training but would be less competitive and enjoying competetion less.

Maybe that is a bit sexist as this was a former east German coach but maybe there is a bit to that, in my experience with the boys I work with they tend to get bored if there is no competition, they don't train to get better long term but they train to win tomorrow and you have to balance training and competition in a way that they improve long term but also win tomorrow or they are losing interest in it.

I do think it is easier in individual sports where level of competition can be manipulated much easier. Or in sports where size and athleticism matter more (e.g. Dkembe Mtumbo could pick up basketball at 17 and become an all star). But the theory of focusing on skill development, hard work and having fun without crazy national circuits for as long as you can has a ton of merit.

Our son’s first coach had a local team with 5 D1 players with his older son. After they won Cooperstown they all got poached by national teams who played “the circuit” spending way too much money traveling and playing in high profile tournaments. Learning from that, Coach Goodwin pledged to keep my son’s team together for as long as possible (as long as the kids wanted) to avoid the business of high level travel baseball for as long as possible and to keep it as fun as possible. He created the best competition he could within that setting—son never played in PG/PBR/etc. event or showcase until HS. The boys are still in touch and range from players in JuCo (1), D/MiLB (2), D3 (4), 4H judge (1),  chef school (1), amazing members of the regular student body (4). It was a very healthy baseball hybrid and allowed each boy to figure out his own appropriate trajectory when the time came.

Once in HS, I do think playing against the best competition you can (that stretches you without overwhelming you) prepares you for what’s next.

As a former winner of a 4H tractor school competition, I hope that judge is loving his life, @PTWood

First: It's a movie and as a consequence misses a lot of reality.

Second: They are both generational talents. How many other parents did (or could do) the same thing and not get the same results.

JMO

@BOF posted:

First: It's a movie and as a consequence misses a lot of reality.

Second: They are both generational talents. How many other parents did (or could do) the same thing and not get the same results.

JMO

Through a friend I was introduced to Dr Joel Fish. He’s the director of the Center For Sports Psychology. The organization counsels pro sports teams and Team USA teams. But a large part of their business is individual counseling to teen athletes.

At the time Dr Fish told me for every Tiger Woods (he was on a roll then) there are 100+ kids in counseling who are very unhappy and still being pushed by their parents. One girl told a counselor she hates soccer. But with all the time and money her parents have invested she’s afraid to tell them and walk away from playing.

Look what happened to a Tiger Woods once he didn’t have his father around to control his life.

Does King Richard paint an accurate picture of Richard Williams?

Not exactly. It's rather evident while watching the film that we aren't getting the full picture of Richard Williams. Much of Richard's less savory side, including his ego, infidelity, and questionable business dealings are glossed over in the movie. In addition, the movie maintains the narrative that Richard was always kindhearted and nice. He hardly ever loses his temper. His darker side is all but absent, leaving us wondering what it was actually like to live with such a strict disciplinarian who was obsessed with his daughters' success. None of this is surprising given that this is an authorized biopic and Venus and Serena are executive producers on the film.

Tennis is so different than baseball, the fact that it's solo completely changes the way you train to compete. Remember, the Williams sisters were at an academy where there were top juniors,  men and women training. They got to compete everyday with some of the most accomplished players around. It's not like some travel team practice, they got to train and compete with players who were much better than them. It was not just the two of them playing together, although that happened alot. Imagine your 13 year old showing up for BP and having different big leaguers throwing each day. Hitting with better players is a big part of Tennis training,  it is far easier for the women to find this than men, I'm not being sexist just honest. There is a down side to these academies as most of the kids get chewed up and spit out, it's a very tough for most players.

@baseballhs posted:

I met a dad at several big showcases. His son only trained, never played travel/club ball. He did play for hs and did go to showcases. The experiment is still in process but he was good. He was at all the invite only showcases and committed and went to a P5.,

That sounds anecdotal to me. Where is the hard data to support such a claim?! We need photos and a sworn affidavit. Strong PM to follow! 😂

@baseballhs posted:

I met a dad at several big showcases. His son only trained, never played travel/club ball. He did play for hs and did go to showcases. The experiment is still in process but he was good. He was at all the invite only showcases and committed and went to a P5.,

Is the kid a pitcher?

No he is a ss.

@baseballhs posted:

No he is a ss.

Unless the kid has top prospect, superstar metrics colleges coaches would likely want to see him compete against top competition.

He did, we saw him at area code we saw him at the junior nationals, the national, the under armor all American under class, the future game, The USA tryouts. He had multiple P5 offers. I’m not saying this is the way it should be done, I’m just saying it’s a way it can be done done. Long term results are yet to be seen.