sports parents (King Richard)

Absolutely

But Bob, I am sure you could achieve the physical and mechanical results by simply training and not playing in games.  But how would you hone the "sixth tool"?  The ability to compete?

Anotherparent"

If you include "mock" baseball games [workup] to develop the 6th tool and the knowledge of the game can be learn from reading stories of Willie, Ted and many others especially the managers.

Bob

@anotherparent posted:

(because we haven't had a Crazy Sports Parent thread in a while)

I just saw the new movie King Richard, about the father of Venus and Serena Williams.  One point seemed to be that he pushed them to train insanely hard, but at the same time he never yelled at them about their performance, and kept asking if they were having fun.  He wouldn't let them compete on the junior tennis circuit so as not to put too much stress on them.  Obviously, it worked.

Thoughts?  Could this work for a team sport like baseball?

But could you get ALL the parents in a team sport like baseball (12+ sets of parents in little league, 12-20 sets in travel ball, 24-30 sets in high school, 34+ in college) to agree to train (their son) insanely hard, and never yell at them, and keep asking if they are having fun?  Individually, sure.

FWIW- Because of this site (a similar thread), before every college game, I texted my son to play hard, do his best, have fun, and that I loved him.  He got tired of it, but hey, I'm the parent.

I would disagree with the premise they did not compete.  They competed very hard every day because they had each other to compete against.  His premise was he didn't want a watered down version of tennis.  He wanted them to compete but against equal competition or better.  I've been told that they leave out a part of the story that he would pay professionals to come in and compete against them .  If you could compete in a closed environment you would not need to go outside that closed environment to compete.  If I had a couple of sons the same age or a group of guys who were compelled to work equally hard I would have never had to go play travel ball.  You could go pitcher against hitter and vice versa but that world does not exist in baseball like it does in tennis.  He had the perfect world.  He may have never yelled but he used other things that were just as bad in real life.

I think the single most important element of all of this has nothing to do with baseball. It's critically important to help children understand that it's consistent, productive effort (some might say, "hard work") that provides the necessary linkage between ability and achievement; regardless of the nature of the objective. They learn over time that improvement brings positive results, which inevitably causes them to have fun in the process.

My father was one of those who had all the ability in the world, but he never seemed to understand the necessity of applying oneself diligently to a pursuit. He taught my brother and me this lesson through a lifetime of repeated frustrations.

Beginning at an early age, I made sure that my sons knew the need to apply themselves consistently to whatever they chose to do. It's ended up making a big, positive difference in both of their lives; despite the fact that they chose very different paths to follow.

@PitchingFan posted:

I would disagree with the premise they did not compete.  They competed very hard every day because they had each other to compete against.  His premise was he didn't want a watered down version of tennis.  He wanted them to compete but against equal competition or better.  I've been told that they leave out a part of the story that he would pay professionals to come in and compete against them .  If you could compete in a closed environment you would not need to go outside that closed environment to compete.  If I had a couple of sons the same age or a group of guys who were compelled to work equally hard I would have never had to go play travel ball.  You could go pitcher against hitter and vice versa but that world does not exist in baseball like it does in tennis.  He had the perfect world.  He may have never yelled but he used other things that were just as bad in real life.

I agree. Being two sisters who were super good was a big advantage as they could play a very good opponent every day.

I think without that sister competition aspect not playing tournaments would have worked less good.

I also read an interview with a former top coach who had worked with male and female speed skaters who said that generally girls like the process of training more while boys generally get bored from training a lot when they can't play competitions, they train to win.

He said his girls worked harder, complained less and could tolerate more training but would be less competitive and enjoying competetion less.

Maybe that is a bit sexist as this was a former east German coach but maybe there is a bit to that, in my experience with the boys I work with they tend to get bored if there is no competition, they don't train to get better long term but they train to win tomorrow and you have to balance training and competition in a way that they improve long term but also win tomorrow or they are losing interest in it.

I do think it is easier in individual sports where level of competition can be manipulated much easier. Or in sports where size and athleticism matter more (e.g. Dkembe Mtumbo could pick up basketball at 17 and become an all star). But the theory of focusing on skill development, hard work and having fun without crazy national circuits for as long as you can has a ton of merit.

Our son’s first coach had a local team with 5 D1 players with his older son. After they won Cooperstown they all got poached by national teams who played “the circuit” spending way too much money traveling and playing in high profile tournaments. Learning from that, Coach Goodwin pledged to keep my son’s team together for as long as possible (as long as the kids wanted) to avoid the business of high level travel baseball for as long as possible and to keep it as fun as possible. He created the best competition he could within that setting—son never played in PG/PBR/etc. event or showcase until HS. The boys are still in touch and range from players in JuCo (1), D/MiLB (2), D3 (4), 4H judge (1),  chef school (1), amazing members of the regular student body (4). It was a very healthy baseball hybrid and allowed each boy to figure out his own appropriate trajectory when the time came.

Once in HS, I do think playing against the best competition you can (that stretches you without overwhelming you) prepares you for what’s next.

As a former winner of a 4H tractor school competition, I hope that judge is loving his life, @PTWood

First: It's a movie and as a consequence misses a lot of reality.

Second: They are both generational talents. How many other parents did (or could do) the same thing and not get the same results.

JMO

@BOF posted:

First: It's a movie and as a consequence misses a lot of reality.

Second: They are both generational talents. How many other parents did (or could do) the same thing and not get the same results.

JMO

Through a friend I was introduced to Dr Joel Fish. He’s the director of the Center For Sports Psychology. The organization counsels pro sports teams and Team USA teams. But a large part of their business is individual counseling to teen athletes.

At the time Dr Fish told me for every Tiger Woods (he was on a roll then) there are 100+ kids in counseling who are very unhappy and still being pushed by their parents. One girl told a counselor she hates soccer. But with all the time and money her parents have invested she’s afraid to tell them and walk away from playing.

Look what happened to a Tiger Woods once he didn’t have his father around to control his life.

Does King Richard paint an accurate picture of Richard Williams?

Not exactly. It's rather evident while watching the film that we aren't getting the full picture of Richard Williams. Much of Richard's less savory side, including his ego, infidelity, and questionable business dealings are glossed over in the movie. In addition, the movie maintains the narrative that Richard was always kindhearted and nice. He hardly ever loses his temper. His darker side is all but absent, leaving us wondering what it was actually like to live with such a strict disciplinarian who was obsessed with his daughters' success. None of this is surprising given that this is an authorized biopic and Venus and Serena are executive producers on the film.

Tennis is so different than baseball, the fact that it's solo completely changes the way you train to compete. Remember, the Williams sisters were at an academy where there were top juniors,  men and women training. They got to compete everyday with some of the most accomplished players around. It's not like some travel team practice, they got to train and compete with players who were much better than them. It was not just the two of them playing together, although that happened alot. Imagine your 13 year old showing up for BP and having different big leaguers throwing each day. Hitting with better players is a big part of Tennis training,  it is far easier for the women to find this than men, I'm not being sexist just honest. There is a down side to these academies as most of the kids get chewed up and spit out, it's a very tough for most players.

@baseballhs posted:

I met a dad at several big showcases. His son only trained, never played travel/club ball. He did play for hs and did go to showcases. The experiment is still in process but he was good. He was at all the invite only showcases and committed and went to a P5.,

That sounds anecdotal to me. Where is the hard data to support such a claim?! We need photos and a sworn affidavit. Strong PM to follow! 😂

@baseballhs posted:

I met a dad at several big showcases. His son only trained, never played travel/club ball. He did play for hs and did go to showcases. The experiment is still in process but he was good. He was at all the invite only showcases and committed and went to a P5.,

Is the kid a pitcher?

No he is a ss.

@baseballhs posted:

No he is a ss.

Unless the kid has top prospect, superstar metrics colleges coaches would likely want to see him compete against top competition.

He did, we saw him at area code we saw him at the junior nationals, the national, the under armor all American under class, the future game, The USA tryouts. He had multiple P5 offers. I’m not saying this is the way it should be done, I’m just saying it’s a way it can be done done. Long term results are yet to be seen.

@RyanS posted:

Tennis is so different than baseball, the fact that it's solo completely changes the way you train to compete. Remember, the Williams sisters were at an academy where there were top juniors,  men and women training. They got to compete everyday with some of the most accomplished players around. It's not like some travel team practice, they got to train and compete with players who were much better than them. It was not just the two of them playing together, although that happened alot. Imagine your 13 year old showing up for BP and having different big leaguers throwing each day. Hitting with better players is a big part of Tennis training,  it is far easier for the women to find this than men, I'm not being sexist just honest. There is a down side to these academies as most of the kids get chewed up and spit out, it's a very tough for most players.

tennis is a really bad bet financially for most. if you think baseball is though financially and all that to make it to the majors try tennis.

Tennis is super expensive with private coaches, academies and all that. Parents of top tennis players have other invested several 100k into the careers until they are 18 and it only gets more expensive from there on.

Break even point for tennis is about number 120 in the world, until you reach that you invest a ton of money into coaching, travel, hotels and so on.

@baseballhs posted:

I met a dad at several big showcases. His son only trained, never played travel/club ball. He did play for hs and did go to showcases. The experiment is still in process but he was good. He was at all the invite only showcases and committed and went to a P5.,

I totally could see this work, especially for a pitcher (95 with control is 95 with control) but the question is how you keep a kid motivated like that.

I have noticed that especially boys usually need competition to stay engaged (while girls sometimes tend to enjoy "the process" a little more).

In my experience boys train to win tomorrow, not to get better in the long run and to keep them engaged you need to balance drill work and "games" at least 1 to 1, if not 1 to 2.

With older kids like 15+ it can work to work focused longer but with 8-14 years all the boys want is competition.

With my younger boys I'm usually doing like 20 minutes of focused drill work on mechanics and then the rest of the time I invent little games that are designed to reinforce what they have learned (and they still almost get to fight each other over that meaningless game).

@baseballhs posted:

I met a dad at several big showcases. His son only trained, never played travel/club ball. He did play for hs and did go to showcases. The experiment is still in process but he was good. He was at all the invite only showcases and committed and went to a P5.,

In our county at the time my 2017 was in HS, if you wanted to be in a travel team you had to drive an 1-2 hours to get to practices and home games. Very few did. Most played only HS, HS-affiliated fall ball, and Legion in the summer.  Almost all of this group played Juco to D2.  Very few D1-bound players went this route; most went to Juco first.  There were a very few players on travel teams, but they were mostly exceptional talents.

I tend to agree that it works better for pitcher.  Playing Travel ball and doing the showcase circuit is pretty hard to juggle without overusing your arm.  This kid's dad ran a baseball facility, so I'm sure he could work on skills whenever he wanted.  I think we honestly could have done the same (pitcher).  I would say almost all of my son's recruiting came from camps or showcases.  He played travel ball but it wasn't a top team...it was a group of mostly kids that played together from 8U on.

@Dominik85 posted:

I totally could see this work, especially for a pitcher (95 with control is 95 with control) but the question is how you keep a kid motivated like that.

I have noticed that especially boys usually need competition to stay engaged (while girls sometimes tend to enjoy "the process" a little more).

In my experience boys train to win tomorrow, not to get better in the long run and to keep them engaged you need to balance drill work and "games" at least 1 to 1, if not 1 to 2.

With older kids like 15+ it can work to work focused longer but with 8-14 years all the boys want is competition.

With my younger boys I'm usually doing like 20 minutes of focused drill work on mechanics and then the rest of the time I invent little games that are designed to reinforce what they have learned (and they still almost get to fight each other over that meaningless game).

It’s amazing how the process has changed. I’m the fourth generation of college baseball players. My son is the fifth. My great grandfather played in the 1890’s. My father played Big Ten football before getting injured and transferring to what is now a NESCAC as a legacy. My father never mentioned if he dreamed of playing in the NFL.

I never trained to play. I just played and played and played in season starting at about age seven. The first team was LL at age nine. I did the same with basketball and football in season. I figured I would play baseball through college just because I saw myself as a baseball player first.

Halfway through high school we moved to a baseball hotbed. I started being noticed my major colleges and pro scouts. I was shocked. I didn’t get caught up in it. I just kept playing and playing and playing. There weren’t showcases.  The closest thing were MLB tryouts and word of mouth from scouts to college coaches. Essentially, the colleges found you. They showed up to high school and Legion games.

I played three high school sports. My son was cut from high school basketball being told he couldn’t possibly focus on three sports. High school coaches expect offseason participation and training. It’s the nature of large classification high schools now. He was offered scholarships to private schools. I found it amusing he was offered academic scholarships if he would play at least two sports. He was scouted by 17u teams. They asked him what were his target schools.

Re girls enjoying the process: I believe the correct term would be socialization. Girls are less likely to transfer if they don’t start. They don’t have a MLB dream. There’s only Team USA (the best of the best). My daughter was a fourth outfielder for four years. Her view was she played enough, enjoyed her teammates once several realized she wasn’t a potential date (a whole other conversation about female college sports) and was at the right school for her future.

@baseballhs posted:

I tend to agree that it works better for pitcher.  Playing Travel ball and doing the showcase circuit is pretty hard to juggle without overusing your arm.  This kid's dad ran a baseball facility, so I'm sure he could work on skills whenever he wanted.  I think we honestly could have done the same (pitcher).  I would say almost all of my son's recruiting came from camps or showcases.  He played travel ball but it wasn't a top team...it was a group of mostly kids that played together from 8U on.

The drawback is the lack of ability for a position player to work on instincts against top competition in a high speed environment. When my son was fourteen he asked a question that told me he had “it.” He was playing 16u. He asked me when I played sports if the game went into slow motion allowing the time to always make the right decision.