Do many schools have spring tournaments agaisnt other schools? This is son's first year on Varsity so it was a bit surprising to me? Just curious, thanks.
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Pretty much standard practice on the West Coast. Our kids go away for three days,they get to play teams they have not seen before, go to a college game, 4 to a room - team building (if you want to call it that) and have a great time. In his first team/parent meeting he always tells families to not plan on any vacations until the season is over.
We do for all three - Fresh/JV/Varsity. Then again, in Illinois our season is a whole lot shorter. Our players all know in advance that they will have games or practices scheduled every day during break. I haven't heard it said out loud, but I do also believe that a kid who is out of town that week may not get as much playing time after break.
Same is true for our basketball teams - they have games and practices through Thanksgiving and Christmas breaks, too.
Same is true for our basketball teams - they have games and practices through Thanksgiving and Christmas breaks, too.
ok, thanks for the input. We had planned on sending 2013 Son on a cruise with a teammate and his folks, but that had to be scrapped. Not complaining, just found it a bit odd.
The high schools here go to Florida for tournaments during the week of spring break. Get in a lot of games and have a bit of fun.
Honestly if a team takes spring break off and does nothing probably isn't a very good team. You can't take a week off and then start back up and expect to be good.
When I was in Kentucky as head coach we always played in a spring break tournament. I tried to find places that would allow us to stay overnight and we had some great trips. Like BOF said it's good for team chemistry. I would take my guys bowling or putt putt or movies or something when we weren't playing. It was just a good time.
When I took over it was cool under the previous head coaches for the seniors to take the week off and do whatever and then come back. When I was named head coach I met with my seniors and told them this was no longer allowed. They had to pick one or the other because if they went on vacation then they were telling me they were quitting. That was my policy for everyone - if they went anywhere other than with us they were telling me they were quitting. My first year I had two seniors because the other five decided to go to Florida on spring break and they didn't come out for tryouts. I respected their decision because they chose what was important to them and we moved on.
When I was in Kentucky as head coach we always played in a spring break tournament. I tried to find places that would allow us to stay overnight and we had some great trips. Like BOF said it's good for team chemistry. I would take my guys bowling or putt putt or movies or something when we weren't playing. It was just a good time.
When I took over it was cool under the previous head coaches for the seniors to take the week off and do whatever and then come back. When I was named head coach I met with my seniors and told them this was no longer allowed. They had to pick one or the other because if they went on vacation then they were telling me they were quitting. That was my policy for everyone - if they went anywhere other than with us they were telling me they were quitting. My first year I had two seniors because the other five decided to go to Florida on spring break and they didn't come out for tryouts. I respected their decision because they chose what was important to them and we moved on.
Coach,
What if a parent was at odds with your philosophy. Son says, I can't go or else I will be thrown off, please please let me stay, but parent says, he can't tell me what to do with my son, you're coming whether you like it or not", you would still kick the kid off the team if he had no control over it? Or were there exceptions? would it make a difference if the kid was a stud or a bench warmer?
What if a parent was at odds with your philosophy. Son says, I can't go or else I will be thrown off, please please let me stay, but parent says, he can't tell me what to do with my son, you're coming whether you like it or not", you would still kick the kid off the team if he had no control over it? Or were there exceptions? would it make a difference if the kid was a stud or a bench warmer?
I have seen players (and the families) that took that attitude get cut or ride the pine and leave on their own accord. It is about Team and Comitment to the Team.
No excuses. The team depends on its players, a "stud" player that can not be depended upon, is NOT a stud player, imho.
No excuses. The team depends on its players, a "stud" player that can not be depended upon, is NOT a stud player, imho.
Interesting. I agree, I would never force my kid to come on a trip instead of a tournament....never. However, I find it very unfair for the kid who has absolutely no choice. IMO, it is flat out wrong to cut a kid in that specific situation.
Our coach has a simple philosiphy no excuses.
Miss a practice, then you can not start the next game, sit min 3 innings, regardless of the reason or who you are. If you are sick you at least show up and he will send you home. Miss a game then you sit the next game. My son had a fever on Monday and missed school, but he drove himself to practice and the coach sent him home. He will pitch in our league opener tomorrow and he did not want to letthe team down so he got to practice.
This has not happend since we have been there, but if a player "decided" that he could not come on the away tournament (for whatever reason) that is more or less saying that you do not want to be part of the team. Does not matter if it is parents or not, my guess is that if a kid pleaded with him that his parents would not let him go then he would most likely take the 5 games missed, tag on 5 games penalty and what ever practice he missed, so a player would essentially miss 1/2 of the seaon, so in effect he would not be a starter and get a few innings here and there.
It is part of the commitment to play on the HS team. Remember it is a honor, not a right, to play for your HS team. If you can't meet the requirements then don't play.
Miss a practice, then you can not start the next game, sit min 3 innings, regardless of the reason or who you are. If you are sick you at least show up and he will send you home. Miss a game then you sit the next game. My son had a fever on Monday and missed school, but he drove himself to practice and the coach sent him home. He will pitch in our league opener tomorrow and he did not want to letthe team down so he got to practice.
This has not happend since we have been there, but if a player "decided" that he could not come on the away tournament (for whatever reason) that is more or less saying that you do not want to be part of the team. Does not matter if it is parents or not, my guess is that if a kid pleaded with him that his parents would not let him go then he would most likely take the 5 games missed, tag on 5 games penalty and what ever practice he missed, so a player would essentially miss 1/2 of the seaon, so in effect he would not be a starter and get a few innings here and there.
It is part of the commitment to play on the HS team. Remember it is a honor, not a right, to play for your HS team. If you can't meet the requirements then don't play.
My scenario does not question the kid's commitment as you suggest. This is a kid who wants to stay behind and play but folks won't let him. How anyone in good conscious could cut a kid like this, without discussion with his family to verify, is beyond me. We are talking about an exhibition during a vacation.
I understand missing practice, then can't start a game. No problem with that. However, BOF and Coach, you are going to tell me that you would cut a 16 yr old kid, who is a stellar worker and player on the team because his parents will not let him stay home alone, unsupervised (even though 16yr old desperately wants to go) and insist that they spent the money for his ticket and he has no choice but to leave and be forced to miss an exhibition tournament which is not part of the regular season?
I understand missing practice, then can't start a game. No problem with that. However, BOF and Coach, you are going to tell me that you would cut a 16 yr old kid, who is a stellar worker and player on the team because his parents will not let him stay home alone, unsupervised (even though 16yr old desperately wants to go) and insist that they spent the money for his ticket and he has no choice but to leave and be forced to miss an exhibition tournament which is not part of the regular season?
2013 Dad I know this is going to be taken as a semantic argument but I strongly believe in this. If a kid goes on vacation instead of being with the team I am not kicking the kid off the team. They are choosing to quit the team.
floridafan and BOF have nailed it in that it's about commitment and missing too much time / practice / games to really be allowed to come back.
I understand where you're coming from in that it's not fair if it's the parent forcing the issue but look at it from another point of view - how is it fair that everybody else on the team has to stay and work their rearends off while one of them gets to vacation somewhere. Whether they step back into the starting role or earn it back they missed a major part of the season - how is that fair to the rest of team.
Plus you're setting a very bad precedent. You let this kid stay on the team (playing time is irrelevant) after going on vacation. Next thing you know you will have more and more parents trying to do this. Not every of them but it will start happening.
Life's not always fair and choice have to be made. I would feel sympathy for the kid because that is ridiculous for a parent to do something like this but commitment is commitment.
floridafan and BOF have nailed it in that it's about commitment and missing too much time / practice / games to really be allowed to come back.
I understand where you're coming from in that it's not fair if it's the parent forcing the issue but look at it from another point of view - how is it fair that everybody else on the team has to stay and work their rearends off while one of them gets to vacation somewhere. Whether they step back into the starting role or earn it back they missed a major part of the season - how is that fair to the rest of team.
Plus you're setting a very bad precedent. You let this kid stay on the team (playing time is irrelevant) after going on vacation. Next thing you know you will have more and more parents trying to do this. Not every of them but it will start happening.
Life's not always fair and choice have to be made. I would feel sympathy for the kid because that is ridiculous for a parent to do something like this but commitment is commitment.
coach and bof,
I respect your opinions and your points are well taken, but I strongly disagree as to this specific scenario. I am not big on the "no exceptions" type attitude with most things (as there are exceptions to that as well
. To me, there are always exceptions. And this certainly would be one of them.
IMHO, I think the proper way to handle it would be for the coach to question the kid and parents and try to get a feel for the truth of the matter. If it seems obvious it was the parents' doing, then kid stays, but if it appears that the kid ditched simply to go to the beach for a week, kid gets cut.
Nice discussion guys.
I respect your opinions and your points are well taken, but I strongly disagree as to this specific scenario. I am not big on the "no exceptions" type attitude with most things (as there are exceptions to that as well
. To me, there are always exceptions. And this certainly would be one of them. IMHO, I think the proper way to handle it would be for the coach to question the kid and parents and try to get a feel for the truth of the matter. If it seems obvious it was the parents' doing, then kid stays, but if it appears that the kid ditched simply to go to the beach for a week, kid gets cut.
Nice discussion guys.
You are not fully appreciating what problems parents can become. And here is a prime example. If this is allowed to stand, they will be questioning playing time and positioning, batting order etc. It can become a cancer and can not be allowed to take root. A coach can lose control of the team by allowing things like this to occur. If my son played on a team getting ready for a spring trip and a key player that the team expected to rely on to have a successful trip decided or for any reason other than extreme health conditions could not or would not come, I would be upset, and the player would probably lose the respect of his team as well.
Generally speaking; The Varsity Head Coach conducts a preseason meeting with the parents and explains the player commitment at the Varsity level. In our case, that discussion always detailed the Spring Break playing schedule. This info was also sent via letter to all players trying out explaining that if they couldn't meet the requirements then they shouldn't try out for the team. I.E., go have fun on Spring Break.
Maybe it's my Military experiences along with an athletic background coming out here; but teams win through a total team, season long commitment to the team effort. That is conducted via a strong Leader whose authority and direction isn't open to discussion by team members, and or especially parents.
The suggestion that one should consider every circumstance or exception undermines authority and the ability to get the job done.
Life is full of injustices, at some point little Johnny is going to have to suck it up. Too bad he has parents that don't get it.
Maybe it's my Military experiences along with an athletic background coming out here; but teams win through a total team, season long commitment to the team effort. That is conducted via a strong Leader whose authority and direction isn't open to discussion by team members, and or especially parents.
The suggestion that one should consider every circumstance or exception undermines authority and the ability to get the job done.
Life is full of injustices, at some point little Johnny is going to have to suck it up. Too bad he has parents that don't get it.
As long as the Coach lets the players and their parents know well before the season starts that there will be practices, games, tournaments, and/or scrimmages during official school vacations and that the players' attendance is mandatory, then it's the parents who are ultimately deciding whether their child is a committed enough and serious enough baseball player to be part of something bigger than him.
I can not comprehend any parent who wants his son to play ball to even suggest he not play in a spring break tournament. First of all, it IS NOT an exhibition tournament. Yes, it may not be a district or regional game, but I do know in Florida those games definitely count in the total games allowed (25 in our district). It is a team builder. The kids have a great time, and a number of parents even come along. Heck, the parents could go to the baseball destination for a vacation and support their HS team. People make choices, and if parents make the choice not to let their son play in a tournament, baseball obviously wasn't that big of a priority to begin with-- which is ok. I'm sure if there was a death in the immediate family, or a major event the coach would talk to the family and figure somrthing out. This week, our son's Spring Tourney was 3 1/2 hours south of us. We went to the Saturday game, but left after in order to save money and work days for summer ball games. We took a player home with us so that he could attend his grandfather's funeral, and he was going to get a way back down Monday evening. I am sure had he not been able to make arrangements to get back he would have been excused, but he WANTED to be there for his team and his parents wanted him to go. It was probably what his grandfather would have even wanted. When it comes to certain types of events I am sure the coaches work with the kids individually. However, if the team plans just don't happen to coincide with the families, I think TEAM wins out.
A nearby district has so many kids that go away for spring vacation nobody will schedule them during that week, figuring they will just cancel, like they always do. Most of their spring coaches gave up on practice too because no one shows up. "Everyone's away." What are they supposed to do?
quote:Originally posted by 2013 Dad:
coach and bof,
I respect your opinions and your points are well taken, but I strongly disagree as to this specific scenario. I am not big on the "no exceptions" type attitude with most things (as there are exceptions to that as well
IMHO, I think the proper way to handle it would be for the coach to question the kid and parents and try to get a feel for the truth of the matter. If it seems obvious it was the parents' doing, then kid stays, but if it appears that the kid ditched simply to go to the beach for a week, kid gets cut.
Nice discussion guys.
I respect where you're coming from and it has been a good discussion but we will have to agree to disagree. It's never good business to allow for exceptions to something like this. What smalltownmom said about a funeral is different.
Other people on here have given great examples of why it shouldn't be allowed. Look at the example Antzdad has given. These are the problems that are created when this is allowed to happen.
As for the question to try and find out truth I just don't think that's good business. You're creating an atmosphere of distrust right off the bat. I'm not going to sit down and try to figure out if somebody's lying or not. How do you prove someone is lying like this. Kid looks at you and says "I swear it's my mom and dad making me do this." but it's not. The kid is the one making the demands to go somewhere - how do you prove this? It's one thing to think it but how do you prove it? Simplest and best solution is - you're with the team or you're not with the team. Simple as that.
Antzdad as for your situation - if I was hired and faced this my first year then everyone who didn't show up is considered to have quit. Like someone else said you have to let people know early so they can plan around it. Then you stick with your guns and not allow those who leave to come back. It might take a few years but that sport (in this case baseball) will start to change. Other teams will start taking a chance on scheduling because the whole team atmosphere should be changing to something better.
If after a few years you're still fighting the same battle then you might be in an impossible situation. Might be time to move on if you've given it a good shot.
Isn’t this the most common type of chat-room discussion? Two points of view … and they’re both right depending on the circumstances?
If a player is playing high school athletics, then this likely isn’t the first season they’ve played on a team. I’d find it hard to believe that a player/parent being told of the requirement for a time commitment would come away surprised. I guess it’s possible that ‘Billy’ never played any sports prior to his freshman year and turns out to be a baseball savant. In which case, the whole family would need a crash course in team sport participation. In this case, is it fair to assume that the Coach would be aware of the situation (Billy & Family “newness” to team activities)? This extreme of situation would probably require some extra line of communication (Coach to parent, Asst Coach to parent or other parent to parent) to bring this family up to speed.
Let me play out two other extremes: The kid says, “Coach, I’m going to the beach for spring break. I’m ditching practice, I’m missing the games and my parents know.” Coach should say, “Wear sun screen and best of luck with the rest of your life; please leave your uniform by the door.”
On the other hand, if a great-grandmother is celebrating her 125th birthday, or extended family is gathering somewhere for a major wedding anniversary for your grandparents, or an uncle passed away, I would imagine an honest communication could happen between Coach and player, Coach and parent and a narrow focused accommodation could be made for the player without an undesirable precedent being set.
Ultimately, a blanket rule saying that participation is required and there will be ramifications if the rule is broken needs to be in place. The best part of the playing for a team is being on the team! The more the players grow together, the more they can lean on each other. But to expect there would never be an exception is not acknowledging that there are no guarantees in life.
If a player is playing high school athletics, then this likely isn’t the first season they’ve played on a team. I’d find it hard to believe that a player/parent being told of the requirement for a time commitment would come away surprised. I guess it’s possible that ‘Billy’ never played any sports prior to his freshman year and turns out to be a baseball savant. In which case, the whole family would need a crash course in team sport participation. In this case, is it fair to assume that the Coach would be aware of the situation (Billy & Family “newness” to team activities)? This extreme of situation would probably require some extra line of communication (Coach to parent, Asst Coach to parent or other parent to parent) to bring this family up to speed.
Let me play out two other extremes: The kid says, “Coach, I’m going to the beach for spring break. I’m ditching practice, I’m missing the games and my parents know.” Coach should say, “Wear sun screen and best of luck with the rest of your life; please leave your uniform by the door.”
On the other hand, if a great-grandmother is celebrating her 125th birthday, or extended family is gathering somewhere for a major wedding anniversary for your grandparents, or an uncle passed away, I would imagine an honest communication could happen between Coach and player, Coach and parent and a narrow focused accommodation could be made for the player without an undesirable precedent being set.
Ultimately, a blanket rule saying that participation is required and there will be ramifications if the rule is broken needs to be in place. The best part of the playing for a team is being on the team! The more the players grow together, the more they can lean on each other. But to expect there would never be an exception is not acknowledging that there are no guarantees in life.
CABBallFan - good post and excellent points.
Things happen and things pop up you can't control. The coach makes the rules and enforces the punishments but ultimately the player has to answer to his buddies on the team. That is the final judgement to be passed. When a kid who misses for something and comes back how will he be accepted by the rest of the team?
A death in the family or something similar will mean his buddies will accept him coming back. They will understand the reason for the absence and not hold it against him.
Going on vacation while they have to work their rearends off will mean that kid won't be real popular when he comes back.
Things happen and things pop up you can't control. The coach makes the rules and enforces the punishments but ultimately the player has to answer to his buddies on the team. That is the final judgement to be passed. When a kid who misses for something and comes back how will he be accepted by the rest of the team?
A death in the family or something similar will mean his buddies will accept him coming back. They will understand the reason for the absence and not hold it against him.
Going on vacation while they have to work their rearends off will mean that kid won't be real popular when he comes back.
Our school, and the majority of others in our area compete in tournaments over the spring. Most stay close to home and play in local tournaments throughout So Cal, while others will travel out of state (usually Arizona and Nevada).
We've gone to Nevada and played tournaments in the past, but the last couple of years my son's coach has kept them close to home. The tournament this spring is only an hour away, but our program chose to put the kids up in a hotel for three days, they'll play some good ball, and attend a couple local college games together...great for team chemistry building IMO. Last year they won the spring tournament in their division, this time around it will be more difficult.
As for 2013dad's dilemma. I'm with BOF and Coach on this one...playing HS baseball is an honor, not a right. I'd have to assume that if the parents choose to go on vacation, Junior would have a place to stay? Most families/teammates would be more than happy to help out for a week. If mom and dad aren't comfortable with that, perhaps they need to change their plans? High school sports is a commitment...All for One, One for All...not only for the kids, but for the entire families, that's how good programs are built and maintained. It shouldn't matter if it's one of the studs on the team or the last kid on the roster...JMO.
We've gone to Nevada and played tournaments in the past, but the last couple of years my son's coach has kept them close to home. The tournament this spring is only an hour away, but our program chose to put the kids up in a hotel for three days, they'll play some good ball, and attend a couple local college games together...great for team chemistry building IMO. Last year they won the spring tournament in their division, this time around it will be more difficult.
As for 2013dad's dilemma. I'm with BOF and Coach on this one...playing HS baseball is an honor, not a right. I'd have to assume that if the parents choose to go on vacation, Junior would have a place to stay? Most families/teammates would be more than happy to help out for a week. If mom and dad aren't comfortable with that, perhaps they need to change their plans? High school sports is a commitment...All for One, One for All...not only for the kids, but for the entire families, that's how good programs are built and maintained. It shouldn't matter if it's one of the studs on the team or the last kid on the roster...JMO.
CABBallFan,
You make some very good points. I'm in my office stuck answering the phone (actually working), trying to post, and at the same time watching the Clemson/West Virginia game on CBS...Serious Multi Tasking going on right now!
You make some very good points. I'm in my office stuck answering the phone (actually working), trying to post, and at the same time watching the Clemson/West Virginia game on CBS...Serious Multi Tasking going on right now!
Like others have said, if he started making exceptions then he is now on a slippery of having to explain them and arguing why this excuse was OK and that one was not. Everyone knows the rules and understands them; it is part of your commitment to the team. We have had kids with family deaths and they have gone off to funerals and know that they won’t be starting the next game. When the player got back he was spending time in the dugout talking to his buddies about his Grandfather and sharing stories. The next game he was in the line up. It just comes with the territory. Like a lot of these things it is a bigger deal for the parents than it is the kids, they get it and sometimes the parents don’t. Like bsbl247 said this away trip is always the highlight of their season, it is 3-4 days of nonstop baseball and friends.
At our school, coach said to the parents at the preseason meeting that baseball is a Spring Sport and even though Spring Break falls during the season, it remains baseball season and we have work to do and games to play. If you must take a vacation during our season, you are better off not coming out for baseball.
I wholeheartedly agree with the coach. Vacations can be taken most anytime of the year and high school baseball has it's season. If you want to play, you'll be there.
Parents who schedule vacations during the time of the sport of their child's choice is in season are not putting the team first (not to mention using their brain) and I wouldn't want them as a part of the team. Junior can play baseball in his rec league or on his summer team and not be a burden to the high school team.
I wholeheartedly agree with the coach. Vacations can be taken most anytime of the year and high school baseball has it's season. If you want to play, you'll be there.
Parents who schedule vacations during the time of the sport of their child's choice is in season are not putting the team first (not to mention using their brain) and I wouldn't want them as a part of the team. Junior can play baseball in his rec league or on his summer team and not be a burden to the high school team.
2013 Dad, we have to go to New Orleans every spring break. That's right. Our team leaves sunny Florida and drives 8 hours to New Orleans. They do it out of respect for a longtime coach who is still peripherally involved with the HS team, has contacts in NOLA and thinks this trip is the greatest thing.
It's a great city. 2Bdad and I went with the team last year, and got a deal on Priceline so that we stayed in a hotel on Canal street for less than the hotel in Metarie that the boys stayed in. We really enjoyed it. 2B and I stayed an extra day and went to Emeril's, and that was fantastic.
But without exception all of the players who have already been on this trip 2-3-4 times just hate it. Mostly because they do the exact same things every year and every single move is scripted for them. 2Bdad and I won't be going this year - can't afford it. All the money spent to go to NOLA for four days to play 2 (two) games, when we could play great competition right here in town, or in a tournament somewhere else in FL.
But it is the way it is. So they go. And the coach does explain this at the first meeting of the season, so everyone knows it's coming. Parents who decide to vacation elsewhere are disrespecting the team. I feel sorry for the player.
It's a great city. 2Bdad and I went with the team last year, and got a deal on Priceline so that we stayed in a hotel on Canal street for less than the hotel in Metarie that the boys stayed in. We really enjoyed it. 2B and I stayed an extra day and went to Emeril's, and that was fantastic.
But without exception all of the players who have already been on this trip 2-3-4 times just hate it. Mostly because they do the exact same things every year and every single move is scripted for them. 2Bdad and I won't be going this year - can't afford it. All the money spent to go to NOLA for four days to play 2 (two) games, when we could play great competition right here in town, or in a tournament somewhere else in FL.
But it is the way it is. So they go. And the coach does explain this at the first meeting of the season, so everyone knows it's coming. Parents who decide to vacation elsewhere are disrespecting the team. I feel sorry for the player.
quote:Originally posted by 2Bmom:
we have to go to New Orleans every spring break. That's right.
Was that you on COPS- Mardi Gras?
With all the beads? Of course!
I knew it!!
One of the things the team does is take a walk down Burbon Street after dark. A PERFECT outing for high school baseball players!
And their dads.
quote:Originally posted by 2Bmom:One of the things the team does is take a walk down Burbon Street after dark. A PERFECT outing for high school baseball players!
High School boys + Bourbon St(after hours) = priceless.
PS: Post pictures when you get back please.
It was so funny last year. 2Bdad and I went to a restaurant that had a balcony on the second floor, so we could see them coming. They walked in a big clump, coaches in the lead, moms (one with a stroller!) in the back, frightened JV players (ours can be 7th or 8th graders) seeking shelter among the larger of our varsity players from the...uh..."vendors"... on either side of the street.