Standardized Testing in Baseball

Given how many thousands of players go through recruiting twenty-four responses would have a huge plus/minus factor. Also, they’re not broken down by division. Don’t bother. The sampling would be even smaller. I’m willing to bet parents whose kids don’t go D1 are more likely to believe their kid wasn’t evaluated properly.

As for “playing the game” right it’s more likely to be the parents didn’t understand the recruiting process than how to “play the game” right.

I agree with RJM. More likely they didn’t even know which game they were playing or the rules of the game.

Last summer at HF I saw a ton of parents who would probably say their kid wasn’t evaluated properly or they didn’t play the game right. There were maybe 15-20 kids total that had talent. There were a lot of kids that wouldn’t even start JV at my son’s school. These parents and kids are sold a dream that they have a chance to be recruited when they really don’t.

Several years ago I was driving by a P6 (before Big East imploded) field. I knew it was a D1 showcase for the program. They ran them every weekend for three weeks. I stopped to watch. You figure every one of the thirty-six kids thought they were potential D1 prospects.

After a couple of hours I approached one of the kids I knew  already on the team. I told him I only saw four D1 prospects hitting prospects. He laughed. He told me all four were discovered at other showcases and invited free of charge. The rest probably thought they were short changed. They never had a chance. They didn’t have the talent. All the position players had the hands and the arms. What they lacked was a D1 swing.

LVeinbergs,

Glad to see you back, and sharing more data points.

RJM and TerribleBPTHrower are bringing up valid points, and from my experience (10 years ago) they are pretty darn close to the truth.  There were many camps, showcases and tournaments where my son was evaluated by many college coaches.   We can't say that he didn't have the opportunity to impress many college coaches...as the saying goes he had his share of "shots on goal".  The D1 P5s pretty much passed on him for athletic scholarships.     Lesson learned and we moved on.   What is confusing to players and parents is these programs continued reaching out despite not really having much serious interest.   It took us a while to figure out that we have to evaluate a coaches interest based on what they DO rather than what they SAY.   There is no "Easy Button" in all of this.  It is hard work, and it doesn't happen overnight.   The best thing a parent can do is educate himself/herself about the recruiting process and look objectively (remove emotion) at their son's strengths and weaknesses in the context of college baseball levels.

I truly believe some players and parents think they can look at some datapoints, attend some showcases and think this is eazy-peazy.  Often they realize too late that this is a buyers market, and the coaches are looking at a long shopping list of recruits names with the intention of "buying" only a few recruits.  While datapoints are a great secondary resource for where to look, getting on the field impressing coaches and really listening to their feedback and paying attention to what they do next is far more important.   Once a player/parent figures out and understands how coaches value the recruits skill set can the recruit really broaden that recruiting net to a like-program.  For example, my son got traction with D1 Mid-Majors and HA schools.  Once one D1 Mid-Major and HA school starting showing serious interest, we immediately began focus on other D1 Mid-Majors and HA schools.   This isn't rocket science.

Going to parents for feedback on the recruiting process is like asking prisoners what they think of the justice system. Today, what matters are the college coaches and how they operate.   Coaches are the key in the recruiting marketplace, not the parents.

As always, JMO.

@LVeinbergs

I don't understand how you can come and give illustrations with such a small sample size, 2 dozen? Or is this another attempt to try to push Winmill?

You have gotten great feedback above. Fenway's post hit the nail on the head, no matter what division in college baseball you want to attend and play, the coaches drive the bus, NOT the players, NOT the parents.

Parents and players together need to educate themselves on the process. Finding a really good travel team with coaches who will help prospects to understand the process, may cost $$, but in the end with their help save families money or rely on the HS coach with a great program. Parents have the right to spend or not spend what they want, without breaking the bank or anyone passing judgement.

The exception to the above would be the exceptionally talented player.

JMO

@fenwaysouth posted:

LVeinbergs,

Glad to see you back, and sharing more data points.

RJM and TerribleBPTHrower are bringing up valid points, and from my experience (10 years ago) they are pretty darn close to the truth.  There were many camps, showcases and tournaments where my son was evaluated by many college coaches.   We can't say that he didn't have the opportunity to impress many college coaches...as the saying goes he had his share of "shots on goal".  The D1 P5s pretty much passed on him for athletic scholarships.     Lesson learned and we moved on.   What is confusing to players and parents is these programs continued reaching out despite not really having much serious interest.   It took us a while to figure out that we have to evaluate a coaches interest based on what they DO rather than what they SAY.   There is no "Easy Button" in all of this.  It is hard work, and it doesn't happen overnight.   The best thing a parent can do is educate himself/herself about the recruiting process and look objectively (remove emotion) at their son's strengths and weaknesses in the context of college baseball levels.

I truly believe some players and parents think they can look at some datapoints, attend some showcases and think this is eazy-peazy.  Often they realize too late that this is a buyers market, and the coaches are looking at a long shopping list of recruits names with the intention of "buying" only a few recruits.  While datapoints are a great secondary resource for where to look, getting on the field impressing coaches and really listening to their feedback and paying attention to what they do next is far more important.   Once a player/parent figures out and understands how coaches value the recruits skill set can the recruit really broaden that recruiting net to a like-program.  For example, my son got traction with D1 Mid-Majors and HA schools.  Once one D1 Mid-Major and HA school starting showing serious interest, we immediately began focus on other D1 Mid-Majors and HA schools.   This isn't rocket science.

Going to parents for feedback on the recruiting process is like asking prisoners what they think of the justice system. Today, what matters are the college coaches and how they operate.   Coaches are the key in the recruiting marketplace, not the parents.

As always, JMO.

Awesome line in bold. Sums it up.

I'll join in ... I just took the survey, however, my perspective is very uninformed and incomplete. 

IMO, you'll need sample size that is 100x your initial response share before the results are meaningful.  You'll also want segmented analysis ... for example, HS grad before covid, during covid, or still in HS.

good luck with it, please share some more once you accumulated sufficient data.

People who have found hsbbw probably have figured out that there is a lot of great advice here.  The most useful things in my son's recruiting I found here.  I echo what others have said, many people need information.  Parents who feel misled (and I was/am one) were either not following advice they were given (which we did sometimes), or were given advice that was not good (we had some of that, too).

If your service is going to tell kids "you're a D3 player who will probably not play much on your D3 team" or "you could be a D2 player but you should go to a juco first because that's who gets playing time at D2s" then that will be extremely valuable, but I wonder how that will go down with customers.

As an educator who teaches statistics at both the high school and college level, I also have concerns about the sample size and whether it is "representative." The strongest question for a data point is the first. The last one I would like to see something regarding understanding the process, timelines, etc.  BTW the survey is no longer available.

By the OP's heading I thought it was going to be a point system based on data points (MPH across infield, 60 yard dash, bat speed, grades, etc), which are elements that are part of the athlete wherever they are measured in the country.

@anotherparent posted:

People who have found hsbbw probably have figured out that there is a lot of great advice here.  The most useful things in my son's recruiting I found here.  I echo what others have said, many people need information.  Parents who feel misled (and I was/am one) were either not following advice they were given (which we did sometimes), or were given advice that was not good (we had some of that, too).

If your service is going to tell kids "you're a D3 player who will probably not play much on your D3 team" or "you could be a D2 player but you should go to a juco first because that's who gets playing time at D2s" then that will be extremely valuable, but I wonder how that will go down with customers.

In reply to your last paragraph, I tell HS players (and their parents) those things on a regular basis in the interest of finding the right fit. Do they listen? No. They do not. HS players (and their parents) only listen to what they want to hear. That only leads to big disappointment down the road. Not to mention wasting a lot of money.

@Ripken Fan posted:

BTW the survey is no longer available.

That's because he isn't getting the responses he thought he would get. A while back after his first appearance, he sent a pm to 8 websters that he randomly chose (I was one of them) entitled "Standardized Test Think Tank". Some good feedback was provided to him. Not sure he listened. But he never disclosed the venture he was actually involved with, until I sent him a pm about winmill.

Don't fill out anything for anyone who you don't know, unless  better information is provided.

Also to understand much better the purpose, you might want to visit Winmill Sports @winmillsports on twitter.  Make sure you browse on Media. They have a particular model which is a pitching machine, that measures EV, I think they have different models for other sports.    They were at ABCA convention in Jan. If I got this wrong he needs a better explanation.

This site has been so valuable for parents, coaches in helping each other to understand what is necessary to achieve their players dreams and each and every one has different priorities.

People like LVeinsberg need to be honest.  I think that's fair.

It would be more beneficial, if he explained his purpose here and association with Winmill.

JMO

You have to be careful who you hire to help even if they come recommended. A friend (became friends with the parents due to our kids long time friendship and coached the kid from LL to 16u) hired a recruiting consultant for $1,500.

The guy went into the recruiting consulting business off one kid being a high first round pick and the second kid going ACC. Without ever seeing this kid play the guy told him to make a list and email the baseball coaches. Having HA potential the kid wrote to Vanderbilt, Stanford and Duke.

The kid was spinning his wheels. The consultant was slow to answer. The parents started asking me questions. Then, I pissed them off. I coached the kid from age eleven to fifteen. I watched him play almost every high school game (son’s teammate). I knew his potential. I told them the kid should focus on HA D3’s. I advised if he needs a bump with admissions baseball could provide it.

The parents got pissed. They asked why I believed my son was a D1 prospect and their son isn’t. I explained 17u travel teams that placed kids in D1 recruited my son. They didn’t recruit their son. Then I got real honest. I told them D1’s don’t recruit 5’7 players close to done growing who run a 6.8, have no power and  weak arm. The kid hit about .400 in high school. But a third of his hits were beating the throws of high school infielders.

The parents cooled towards me until the kid made his college commitment at a  HA D3.

The moral of the story: There are a lot of parents who don’t understand the process, what coaches at each level are looking for and don’t want to hear the truth unless it’s confirmation of what they already believe.

@LVeinbergs While I applaud your efforts, this all feels half-baked (at best) to me.  I get where it's coming from.  The recruiting process is a massive machine, has many flaws and almost everyone (players and parents) is anxious to tell you how it can be improved.  So you get this feeling that you want to start a revolution of sorts.  Bring something different to the table that you feel could be profound.  My guess is that just about every parent has felt this way at times.  But what you may not realize is that your proposed solution is not truly different.  Not different enough that it won't be swallowed up as white noise among a sea of competitors.

I equate it to "select ball."  Select ball is what everyone in our area calls travel ball because a kid gets "selected" to play - supposedly.  When my son first got into it, he was 7 years old and played on an 8U team.  Back then - 2010 - 8U select ball was still fairly rare.  Up to that point, travel ball largely started at 9U.  Now 8U is common.  While I can only speak to our area, select ball is unbelievably bloated. In desperate need of contraction. Except, of course, it keeps growing. One coach of parent doesn't like the way the others run their clubs, so what do they do?  Start up another one!  The original idea behind select ball was to prepare a kid to make his high school team. That's it. So there should have been plenty of solid talent left to fill rec ball teams and leagues. But rec ball is all but extinct here and we have tons of teams of "select" players that will never make a high school team.  Their parents are paying $2K, $3+ per season under the outdated concept that playing select ball = making the high school team. And then they're dumbfounded when their kid doesn't make the HS team.

The point is, for new things to start up and have a chance of being meaningful, contraction is first needed.  PG, PBR, etc are only getting bigger.  They won't be contracting for a very long time, if ever.  So your venture, while noble in intent, is simply going to dilute an already highly diluted pool. It's not "sexy" and there is no money to be made, but the very best thing your players and parents can do is sign on to HSBBW for free and read.  Then read some more.  Absorb.  Ask questions.  Lots of them.  And focus harder on the stuff that doesn't give you warm fuzzies because it's often the most valuable and you'll find almost none of it from PG, PBR, etc. 

@DanJ posted:

@LVeinbergs While I applaud your efforts, this all feels half-baked (at best) to me.  I get where it's coming from.  The recruiting process is a massive machine, has many flaws and almost everyone (players and parents) is anxious to tell you how it can be improved.  So you get this feeling that you want to start a revolution of sorts.  Bring something different to the table that you feel could be profound.  My guess is that just about every parent has felt this way at times.  But what you may not realize is that your proposed solution is not truly different.  Not different enough that it won't be swallowed up as white noise among a sea of competitors.

I equate it to "select ball."  Select ball is what everyone in our area calls travel ball because a kid gets "selected" to play - supposedly.  When my son first got into it, he was 7 years old and played on an 8U team.  Back then - 2010 - 8U select ball was still fairly rare.  Up to that point, travel ball largely started at 9U.  Now 8U is common.  While I can only speak to our area, select ball is unbelievably bloated. In desperate need of contraction. Except, of course, it keeps growing. One coach of parent doesn't like the way the others run their clubs, so what do they do?  Start up another one!  The original idea behind select ball was to prepare a kid to make his high school team. That's it. So there should have been plenty of solid talent left to fill rec ball teams and leagues. But rec ball is all but extinct here and we have tons of teams of "select" players that will never make a high school team.  Their parents are paying $2K, $3+ per season under the outdated concept that playing select ball = making the high school team. And then they're dumbfounded when their kid doesn't make the HS team.

The point is, for new things to start up and have a chance of being meaningful, contraction is first needed.  PG, PBR, etc are only getting bigger.  They won't be contracting for a very long time, if ever.  So your venture, while noble in intent, is simply going to dilute an already highly diluted pool. It's not "sexy" and there is no money to be made, but the very best thing your players and parents can do is sign on to HSBBW for free and read.  Then read some more.  Absorb.  Ask questions.  Lots of them.  And focus harder on the stuff that doesn't give you warm fuzzies because it's often the most valuable and you'll find almost none of it from PG, PBR, etc.

Re paying for “select ball” with the expectations of making the high school team.

Between 14u games I watched part of a 9u game and chatted with a few dads. They expected their kids to go D1 because the 17u team in the organization placed all their players on the A team in D1.

Re Contraction if major tournaments.

Not going to happen. If you build it up they will come. By the time my son went to PG East Cobb National Championship there were teams with no business being there.

@fenwaysouth posted:

Going to parents for feedback on the recruiting process is like asking prisoners what they think of the justice system. Today, what matters are the college coaches and how they operate.   Coaches are the key in the recruiting marketplace, not the parents.

Could not agree more with this paragraph above from a prior post  . . .  If you want to develop a product that assists with recruiting, get the feedback and approval of the recruiters who will be using it, then sell it to the parents with endorsements for those using it.