Football related, but I think this is pretty darn cool. Especially for us parents of athletes...
Sensors in the mouthpieces. Really interesting to me.
Stanford researchers study concussion events
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Thanks for the article. It is research that is long overdue. I learned about that study when Stanford WR Chris Owusu took that series of hellacious hits over the course of three games last year. He was one of about 20 players wearing one of those mouth guards that season.
It is going to be hard to change the culture about brain injuries in many sports, including baseball. Toughness is respected (RGIII) and even encouraged generally, but this an area where we have to retrain our sensibilities. There is no way to tough out a traumatic brain injury without risking long-term damage. It is going to be a long process that may even require the departure of the old-school coaches who see it as the game getting "soft".
It is going to be hard to change the culture about brain injuries in many sports, including baseball. Toughness is respected (RGIII) and even encouraged generally, but this an area where we have to retrain our sensibilities. There is no way to tough out a traumatic brain injury without risking long-term damage. It is going to be a long process that may even require the departure of the old-school coaches who see it as the game getting "soft".
I'm not sold on the mouthpieces idea. There is another mouthpiece on the market being sold as a "heat sensor" which will tell us when one's body temp is too high...
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
I'm not sold on the mouthpieces idea. There is another mouthpiece on the market being sold as a "heat sensor" which will tell us when one's body temp is too high...
Just curious, what is it about the mouth piece sensors you're not sold on?
There are still variables out there that we haven't answered yet. I like being headed in this direction and whatnot, but we don't have "the answer" and I'm not sure we ever will truly. Right now this is not something I think needs to go widespread and needs further testing and data collected.
Right now, there is the mouthpiece sensor system coming out, Riddell has its HITS program out, and a Sideline Response System, and they are supposed to be coming out with a high school/youth football system this spring to be on the field next fall. In addition, there is the "ShockBox" which is on the market. Is there promise there? ABSOLUTELY. But we're not ready to jump to any one system yet....
Right now, there is the mouthpiece sensor system coming out, Riddell has its HITS program out, and a Sideline Response System, and they are supposed to be coming out with a high school/youth football system this spring to be on the field next fall. In addition, there is the "ShockBox" which is on the market. Is there promise there? ABSOLUTELY. But we're not ready to jump to any one system yet....
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
There are still variables out there that we haven't answered yet. I like being headed in this direction and whatnot, but we don't have "the answer" and I'm not sure we ever will truly. Right now this is not something I think needs to go widespread and needs further testing and data collected.
IMHO, I think this is the coolest research on head injury I have seen in a while, and IS "the further testing and data (being) collected".
Football players have to wear mouth guards anyway, so they may as well "be the guinea pigs" and collect some data, and what better research university than Stanford. Also, the research on "angular acceleration" sounds very interesting.
My first job out of college decades ago was doing head injury research at one of the top 5 head injury research hospitals (at the time). You can transplant skin. You can transplant hearts. You can transplant livers. There is no transplanting of brains. ANY research data will be useful in some way, and this data seems to be easily retrieved.
My player needs to wear a mouth guard for baseball (already lost one tooth; trying to keep the rest of them intact)and I would be thrilled if the mouth guard could provide some data for research.
quote:IMHO, I think this is the coolest research on head injury I have seen in a while, and IS "the further testing and data (being) collected".
I think it's great that it's getting research. Don't misunderstand me. But right now we cannot say that 100g=concussion or whatever. There are varying thresholds. And if I understand correctly, these mouthguards are designed to adjust according to meeting a certain threshold.
If it is set too low, you're going to have a lot of players being pulled for "having a concussion" when they don't. And if the threshold is too high, you're going to be missing concussions. Either way, the system is not effective and therefore is disregarded.
Another concern that I have is cost. Right now these systems are just so expensive. Riddell's HITS system I've seen quoted at over $60k for the computer program PLUS $1000 per player. Do you really think there are high schools out there (even in Texas!) who can afford that? The ShockBox system is one I'm interested in and is much more affordable. It's $149 per player, but there is no other software needed. It syncs up to a SmartPhone such as an Iphone, Android, Blackberry, etc. Most sidelines have at least one of those phones already
I don't know what these mouthguards cost. But I'm sure they're a lot more expensive than the $1 ones my players are wearing!
From the article in the link: "Even with a big pool of data, he thinks it will be five to ten years before they can even begin to crack what causes concussions."
Granted, I only read the article above, and did not go the original source, but how I read it, the data would be collected so that they could go back and read "the physics" of a concussion AFTER it happened. Not to pull a player immediately out of a game due to the data collected from the mouthpiece. (At least, not YET.) They may pull a player based on the perameters already set, which may match the data collected, which would be determined after the fact.
Cool stuff.
Granted, I only read the article above, and did not go the original source, but how I read it, the data would be collected so that they could go back and read "the physics" of a concussion AFTER it happened. Not to pull a player immediately out of a game due to the data collected from the mouthpiece. (At least, not YET.) They may pull a player based on the perameters already set, which may match the data collected, which would be determined after the fact.
Cool stuff.
I think the Stanford research is interesting, and valuable. Clearly Stanford folks understand it is an issue. I'm curious if they have they changed any atheltic policys to reflect any of their initial research or findings?
It is very difficult to stand by and watch this concussion issue continute to gain steam across the country. Thank God my kids don't play football. The Big Ten and Ivy League have been studying this collaboratively for at least two years, and only the Ivy League has done anything to curb the concussions with modifications to practices. Ivy conference has also done other things in lacrosse and s****r to limit concussions and attempt to protect its athletes. Whether or not it is a success remains to be seen, but it is an effort.
If everybody knows it is an issue, who is going to step up, stop it or prevent it....the schools, the conferences, the NCAA? Research is part of it to understand it, but seriously who wants to be a data point in someone's research. Not me.
http://www.ivyleaguesports.com...d_Injuries_in_Sports
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/co...+concussions+head-on
It is very difficult to stand by and watch this concussion issue continute to gain steam across the country. Thank God my kids don't play football. The Big Ten and Ivy League have been studying this collaboratively for at least two years, and only the Ivy League has done anything to curb the concussions with modifications to practices. Ivy conference has also done other things in lacrosse and s****r to limit concussions and attempt to protect its athletes. Whether or not it is a success remains to be seen, but it is an effort.
If everybody knows it is an issue, who is going to step up, stop it or prevent it....the schools, the conferences, the NCAA? Research is part of it to understand it, but seriously who wants to be a data point in someone's research. Not me.
http://www.ivyleaguesports.com...d_Injuries_in_Sports
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/co...+concussions+head-on
Prevention should be the #1 goal. Seems like in todays world they should be able to make a helmet that would eliminate many, if not most, of these concussions.
Junior Seau suffered from degenerative brain desease. Caused by many concussions (head trauma)
I think more research money should be spent on an attempt to eliminate much of the risk be lessening the impact, rather than evaluate all these concussions. I know that work has been done on this, but evidently not anywhere near enough.
Junior Seau suffered from degenerative brain desease. Caused by many concussions (head trauma)
I think more research money should be spent on an attempt to eliminate much of the risk be lessening the impact, rather than evaluate all these concussions. I know that work has been done on this, but evidently not anywhere near enough.
Food for thought.
I don't know the answer to this question, but consider:
Were concussion injuries in football as prevalent 70 years ago before all of the protective gear for football players was developed?
As protective helmets and padding products are improved, players are encouraged to hit each other harder than is necessary to complete a tackle or a block. Perhaps a relevant comparison would be to rugby which is played with no pads yet still involves player tackling. How many rugby players are stricken with concussion injuries?
Maybe the answer is to reduce the amount of protective gear worn by the players, causing players to play with more control and use only the amount of force needed to complete the play. (Like when we used to play tackle football in our backyard with no pads!) When more protection produces a more violent effect on the players you are getting the opposite effect from what was intended.
Just a thought.
I don't know the answer to this question, but consider:
Were concussion injuries in football as prevalent 70 years ago before all of the protective gear for football players was developed?
As protective helmets and padding products are improved, players are encouraged to hit each other harder than is necessary to complete a tackle or a block. Perhaps a relevant comparison would be to rugby which is played with no pads yet still involves player tackling. How many rugby players are stricken with concussion injuries?
Maybe the answer is to reduce the amount of protective gear worn by the players, causing players to play with more control and use only the amount of force needed to complete the play. (Like when we used to play tackle football in our backyard with no pads!) When more protection produces a more violent effect on the players you are getting the opposite effect from what was intended.
Just a thought.
dbg_fan,
I do believe the helmet has become as much a weapon as protective equipment.
But 70 years ago, the linemen weighed 175 lbs and ran slow. Now days the size, speed and athletic ability of these players makes the game much more dangerous.
I do believe the helmet has become as much a weapon as protective equipment.
But 70 years ago, the linemen weighed 175 lbs and ran slow. Now days the size, speed and athletic ability of these players makes the game much more dangerous.
quote:Were concussion injuries in football as prevalent 70 years ago before all of the protective gear for football players was developed?
I think so. People then just didn't know it. Even in the latest few years with all the concussion craze, people still refuse that it exists. And we have A LOT more science today than they had 70 years ago!
Just because it wasn't reported doesn't mean it didn't occur.
I've read that there were so many deaths and serious injuries in the early part of the 20th century that there were a lot of prominent people wanting collegiate football banned. President Theodore Roosevelt helped save the game by pushing for new rules and better equipment. Bully!
Here's what I think is so interesting (thanks to my own twisted sense of amusement): These guys are pretty much GUARANTEED to get their data.
Why? Because people are so stupid...
This data collection exploits the certainty that there will be a number of concussions occur during the process. The "lab rats" are going to voluntarily participate in the experiment by continuing to do what they're going to do...the Stanford guys don't have to do anything inhumane to their subjects; e.g., inject them with tons of saccharin, or shock their eye-balls out, or make them inhale ridiculous amounts of tobacco smoke...
All they have to do is put the instrumentation on their lab rats, and "let 'em go"
Not ONE of the subjects is going to realize that structure of the situation pretty much proves the point.
Why? Because people are so stupid...
This data collection exploits the certainty that there will be a number of concussions occur during the process. The "lab rats" are going to voluntarily participate in the experiment by continuing to do what they're going to do...the Stanford guys don't have to do anything inhumane to their subjects; e.g., inject them with tons of saccharin, or shock their eye-balls out, or make them inhale ridiculous amounts of tobacco smoke...
All they have to do is put the instrumentation on their lab rats, and "let 'em go"
Not ONE of the subjects is going to realize that structure of the situation pretty much proves the point.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Prevention should be the #1 goal. Seems like in todays world they should be able to make a helmet that would eliminate many, if not most, of these concussions.
Junior Seau suffered from degenerative brain desease. Caused by many concussions (head trauma)
I think more research money should be spent on an attempt to eliminate much of the risk be lessening the impact, rather than evaluate all these concussions. I know that work has been done on this, but evidently not anywhere near enough.
Totally agree. I sent a suggestion to the NFL last year concerning changing a helmet's function and design using modern Formula 1 and Indy Car engineering. When these cars collide hard enough with something they start breaking apart,the thought being that energy is taken out of the collision as each piece leaves the car. A similar approach is used in modern passenger vehicles with crumple zones. Take the same approach by designing the helmet to do the same thing. Using today's helmet design my thought is to construct the padding such that it remains intact at "low" g force levels (whatever low would be) but once a thresh hold is reached the padding begins to disintegrate at the point of contact. The one method that came to mind would be to use some sort of colored gel stored in within the padding that acts as a cushion to a point but once the threshold is reached the "gel" is released. This performs two functions. One is to take energy away from the head/brain, kind of like a whoopee cushion. The second is to signal that the player and helmet have received a serious collision. And perhaps in more intense collisions the outer shell could be designed in some way to disintegrate locally (the spot of impact) absorbing additional energy. The "spot" disintegration would allow the helmet to otherwise remain intact providing protection in case of a second impact, say with the ground, during the same play.
Destroy the helmet not the player.
quote:Destroy the helmet not the player.
Good approach.
quote:Take the same approach by designing the helmet to do the same thing. Using today's helmet design my thought is to construct the padding such that it remains intact at "low" g force levels (whatever low would be) but once a thresh hold is reached the padding begins to disintegrate at the point of contact.
Bike helmets also do this. But the problem is you have to replace a bike helmet after a single impact. That wouldn't work with a football helmet. Football helmets are designed to do one thing: prevent skull fractures. And they do it pretty well! They are not designed for preventing concussions and NEVER WILL.
Also, there is no "threshold" that would be the same for every athlete..
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:quote:Take the same approach by designing the helmet to do the same thing. Using today's helmet design my thought is to construct the padding such that it remains intact at "low" g force levels (whatever low would be) but once a thresh hold is reached the padding begins to disintegrate at the point of contact.
Bike helmets also do this. But the problem is you have to replace a bike helmet after a single impact. That wouldn't work with a football helmet. Football helmets are designed to do one thing: prevent skull fractures. And they do it pretty well! They are not designed for preventing concussions and NEVER WILL.
Also, there is no "threshold" that would be the same for every athlete..
"The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives." -- Admiral William Leahy, U.S. Atomic Bomb Project.
"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible."
- Lord Kelvin (1824-1907), ca. 1895, British mathematician and physicist
- Lord Kelvin (1824-1907), ca. 1895, British mathematician and physicist
Real time monitoring of concussions is very important especially with today's technology. This monitoring offers coaches,trainers etc the opportunity to double check what the athlete is telling them regarding the player's status after a play involving a possible concussion. There is no doubt that this high value information...but it's after the fact. Right now coaches, trainers and parents are playing behind the curve regarding concussions. In order for the accelerometers to transmit the fact that an impact has been violent enough to meet concussion standards the impact has already happened meaning the brain has already been exposed to potential injury. The technology is telling us what has happened...past tense. All well and good. Compile the data. Reinforce correct technique during play. All important but the simple truth is if the game is going to be played as is with the current rules and equipment concussions will happen. It's the nature of the game. Receivers will bounce their heads off the ground as will quarterbacks on legal plays. Running backs will collide legally with defenders. Concussions will happen. Defenders will run into each other etc.
The key is to get ahead of the curve and prevent the concussion from happening during a high impact play.
The key is to get ahead of the curve and prevent the concussion from happening during a high impact play.
quote:The key is to get ahead of the curve and prevent the concussion from happening during a high impact play.
There is NO way of doing that. Until you eliminate all contact, the brain is going to move within the skull. There is no piece of equipment that can prevent that motion.
The initial blow is not large concern. It's the repeated blows to the unhealed brain that creates the biggest problems. It is interesting as we continue to learn more...
I'd be interested to see the data if we were to put the accelerometers into a catcher's mask...
what about ssokker players andbaseball catchers
If you go to the plate believing the pitcher is unhittable you might as well sit down.
quote:what about ssokker players andbaseball catchers
And cheerleaders, and gymnasts, etc.
quote:If you go to the plate believing the pitcher is unhittable you might as well sit down.
See above. Concussions are not a football issue. They are a HEALTH ISSUE.
http://theconcussionblog.com/2...e-not-just-football/
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:quote:The key is to get ahead of the curve and prevent the concussion from happening during a high impact play.
There is NO way of doing that. Until you eliminate all contact, the brain is going to move within the skull. There is no piece of equipment that can prevent that motion.
You are going to set the engineering world on its ear with this bad news...so there is now NO piece of equipment that can absorb the energy of an impact. Bummer for the guys who developed the Kevlar vest and Neoprene shock isolators.
quote:Bummer for the guys who developed the Kevlar vest and Neoprene shock isolators.
If Kevlar was "concussion-proof" don't you think a helmet would be on the market yet? Oh wait, there is one...
http://theconcussionblog.com/2...n-speaks-and-we-see/
People reading this discussion may think that I don't want to see improvements. They may think that I believe it's a worthless cause. I want them to realize that couldn't be further from the truth: I'd LOVE to see a helmet that could prevent concussions. But right now I recognize the science isn't there. Those of you interested, I encourage you to read more of my thoughts here:
http://theconcussionblog.com/2...e-not-just-football/
http://theconcussionblog.com/2...change-is-happening/
http://theconcussionblog.com/2...of-concussion-issue/
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
... They may think that I believe it's a worthless cause. I want them to realize that couldn't be further from the truth: I'd LOVE to see a helmet that could prevent concussions.
quote:quote:
The key is to get ahead of the curve and prevent the concussion from happening during a high impact play.quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
There is NO way of doing that. Until you eliminate all contact, the brain is going to move within the skull. There is no piece of equipment that can prevent that motion.
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
If Kevlar was "concussion-proof" don't you think a helmet would be on the market yet? Oh wait, there is one...
I'll type a little slower...
Point is that there ARE materials that can absorb massive amounts of kinetic energy. That alone tells you that a statement like "there's NO way of doing that" in response to the idea of preventing a concussion from happening during a high impact play seems a little short sighted.
You're absolutely right when you say the technology isn't there yet...
My problem is that I think the pervasive attitude from the football community is:
"You guys get back to us when the concussion prevention products prove to be infallible...until then, those of us in the coaching and training profession have livelihoods to worry about, so we need to keep these kids in the game...oh, and BTW, you can get a concussion doing just about anything, so everyone else is just as guilty as we are..."
I think you'd have a hard time finding somebody on this website more interested about concussions than myself. This is my livelihood. Prevention, recognition and management of athletic injuries. If you haven't noticed, concussions are kind of a big deal at the moment.. And I spend a significant amount of time educating parents, coaches, and student-athletes about the risk associated and about what a concussion is in the first place!
Let us also remember that you don't even have to hit your head to suffer a concussion..
Unfortunately there are plenty of individuals who still believe concussions don't even exist...
Let us also remember that you don't even have to hit your head to suffer a concussion..
Unfortunately there are plenty of individuals who still believe concussions don't even exist...
I think it might be possible to develop a helmet that would lower the risk of concussion. I just don't think it would be practical.
There are materials that absorb the impact of an egg. Seems like the same thing would help absorb the impact of the human head.
Anyway, I would think people are working at this every day. After all, if someone comes up with a product that works, they will become very wealthy. The helmet has changed dramatically over the years. Surely that will continue! Especially with all the recent concern and rule changes regarding safety.
Bulldog,
I know you're very knowledgable on this stuff, but did you really say that if it could be done, it would already been done? Or something like that? We would be living in caves if it worked that way. Even in your field, what was once impossible has become ordinary in many cases.
There are materials that absorb the impact of an egg. Seems like the same thing would help absorb the impact of the human head.
Anyway, I would think people are working at this every day. After all, if someone comes up with a product that works, they will become very wealthy. The helmet has changed dramatically over the years. Surely that will continue! Especially with all the recent concern and rule changes regarding safety.
Bulldog,
I know you're very knowledgable on this stuff, but did you really say that if it could be done, it would already been done? Or something like that? We would be living in caves if it worked that way. Even in your field, what was once impossible has become ordinary in many cases.
What scares me most is the micro hits absorb over the course of a players "career" that don't result in a concussion. For example, young pee wee age ball players who are beginning the process of accumulating thousands of little hits to the head. The impact on these kids brains may not show up until years later. With high school, college and NFL football such a big part of the american culture and the money that is generated by this sport, I wonder if we will ever get our hands around this issue. Is it possible that parents may one day have to sign disclosure forms in order for thier kids to play football that speaks to the potential long term impact of these hits on their kids. Will parents start looking at football the way they look at boxing. I mean how many parents rush out to get their kids involved in boxing, very few-because of the potential danger to their child.
I played football in college and for many years long before this head injury stuff came to light, I have been saying that the game has become extremely dangerous. The dimensions of the field from my knowledge has not change at all or has not significantly change since the game was created. The speed, athleticsm and size of the players has dramatically changed. Linebackers today are the size of lineman back in the sixties with the speed of todays running backs. Offensive lineman at the highschool, college and definitely proffessional are over 300 pounds. The founders of the games could have never have invisioned the amount of force that is being generated by the size and speed of the players today. It is no wonder that injuries and especially head injuries are up. Coupled with the best play of the week ESPN stuff, players have substituted sound tackling fundamentals with bone jarring hits to get the media attention and the coveted top ten play of the week by ESPN. Did you see the hit by the South Carolina lineman named Clowney on the Michigan Quarteback during the bowl game over the holidays. It was all over the news and was already declared the hit of 2013 and the 2013 season has not even started.
I feel for younger parents who are now having to make decisions regarding whether their sons should start playing pee wee football or continue to play the game. Parents now have more information available to them about the dangers of the game as opposed to just anecdotal evidence. Plus they still have to battle those other voices that says " maybe I am overracting and I am teaching my kids to be fearful", " it probably won't happen to my child" "but he really loves the game and he is good who am I to stand in the way of his dreams" among other voices. Not an easy decision.
I do think ultimately we may start to see more parents deciding that they can't live with the risks of their kids playing football unless they can receive some scientific assurances that the risk is very minimal and for some parents even minimal risk will be too much. The bottom line is that today unlike before we have better information available to us which means parents can't take the head in the sand approach.
I played football in college and for many years long before this head injury stuff came to light, I have been saying that the game has become extremely dangerous. The dimensions of the field from my knowledge has not change at all or has not significantly change since the game was created. The speed, athleticsm and size of the players has dramatically changed. Linebackers today are the size of lineman back in the sixties with the speed of todays running backs. Offensive lineman at the highschool, college and definitely proffessional are over 300 pounds. The founders of the games could have never have invisioned the amount of force that is being generated by the size and speed of the players today. It is no wonder that injuries and especially head injuries are up. Coupled with the best play of the week ESPN stuff, players have substituted sound tackling fundamentals with bone jarring hits to get the media attention and the coveted top ten play of the week by ESPN. Did you see the hit by the South Carolina lineman named Clowney on the Michigan Quarteback during the bowl game over the holidays. It was all over the news and was already declared the hit of 2013 and the 2013 season has not even started.
I feel for younger parents who are now having to make decisions regarding whether their sons should start playing pee wee football or continue to play the game. Parents now have more information available to them about the dangers of the game as opposed to just anecdotal evidence. Plus they still have to battle those other voices that says " maybe I am overracting and I am teaching my kids to be fearful", " it probably won't happen to my child" "but he really loves the game and he is good who am I to stand in the way of his dreams" among other voices. Not an easy decision.
I do think ultimately we may start to see more parents deciding that they can't live with the risks of their kids playing football unless they can receive some scientific assurances that the risk is very minimal and for some parents even minimal risk will be too much. The bottom line is that today unlike before we have better information available to us which means parents can't take the head in the sand approach.
Played HS ball, both ways, fullback/nose tackle in the late 60's. Knocked out in 9th grade and who knows how many concussions of lesser intensity thru 3 years of varsity.
My boys were born in the early 80's and ended up not playing football with some help from their father.
My boys were born in the early 80's and ended up not playing football with some help from their father.
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
I think you'd have a hard time finding somebody on this website more interested about concussions than myself. This is my livelihood. Prevention, recognition and management of athletic injuries. If you haven't noticed, concussions are kind of a big deal at the moment.. And I spend a significant amount of time educating parents, coaches, and student-athletes about the risk associated and about what a concussion is in the first place!
I think you've got a lot in common with R.J. Reynolds, Coca Cola, and baloney.