Start Using Wood Now

http://www.baseballcoaches.org/contact.jsp

I suggest anyone on this site interested can email the contact above as well as your own State HS coaches association and Athletic Association, as well as the MLB commissioners office and the NCAA.

I did.

I think composites and should be banned, although it should be up to the regulatory authorities. If I'm a coach, I'm not asking my team to use wood when the team I'm facing is using metal. Its uneven competition.

That being said, maple wood bats should be banned also. They shatter a lot easier than ash and it can be a dangerous projectile. The only way to be completely safe playing baseball is to sit at home and never do anything.

.

"Will it effect the price of rice in China?"

Hold on CD...I'll Google™ it.



Hey! Why isn't this working?

Ouch! Stop that! Stop with the wrist slapping!




.

An excerpt from another Northern California news source (KGO TV, San Francisco). I have met the young USF pitcher that is quoted here...he is one terrific young man and this was the 2nd time he's been hit in the head by a batted ball. I also know people who were there when it happened and they said it was horrific. Glad to read the position the USF coach is taking.

quote:

Even when it is metal instead of wood, there is something sweet about the sound of a well-struck baseball. But, as USF centerfielder Pete Lavin knows all too well, such sweetness also has limits.

"I got to first base and my heart just dropped to see him go down," he recalled.

On February 13, Lavin swung on a 3-1 scrimmage fastball from teammate Matt Hiserman. The ball hit Hiserman in about the same place it hit Marin Catholic pitcher Gunnar Sandberg, but Hiserman was more fortunate.

"It was a severe concussion. I had a fracture, the temporal bone in my head," Hiserman said.

Only recently, Hiserman returned to school and he stills suffers from headaches and dizziness. It is another case in the growing movement to ban metal and composite bats from baseball. At USF, coach Nino Giarratano is already on that train.

"In 1920, in baseball, they went to the helmet to protect the hitter," he said. "And we haven't done anything in 90 years in the sport of baseball to protect the pitcher, and he's at the same distance."

"Come-backers" have always been a part of baseball at all levels, but aluminum bats have a larger sweet-spot which increases the odds of a hot shot doing damage.

"A lot of ringing, a lot of ringing in your head. Most of it went numb," Lavin recalled.

This is not just a safety issue, but also a financial one. A metal bat might cost $200 or $300 dollars, but a player could use it all season. A wooden bat might cost $50 or $60, but a player might break 10 or 12 before a season is over.

"I think my moral position is safety for the kids," Giarratano said. "I'd like to take that position and stay with it no matter what."

quote:

People have more power over this issue than they might imagine but when faced with a personal decision they hesitate.

Wood vs metal is like a WI lawn, plush-n-green part of the year, varying degrees of upkeep, then winter comes and it all dies off. There is never sustained life year round.

Besides the fact that complete unity does not exist in regard to bats, many proponents disagree on the age groups affected. The wood/metal debate grows when fertilized with "Gunner" incidents, then tapers off when people realize the full time effort it takes to make it last.

I am a wood bat proponent beginning at the select and college levels but as much as I hate myself for saying this I believe that, at least in my area, a push at the HS and younger levels would take a bite out of the participation levels.

I will jump on any bandwagon that sends the NCAA a message, but when the deep pockets of bat manufactures find a way to "quiet the crowd" the crowd, I will be one that throws my arms up and say "at least I tried", and back off. As much as I hate the speed of metal in college, I doubt I will ever see the day the big guys close their metal doors completely across the board.

rz1 - I tend to agree with your assessment.

A difference might(?) be that I don't think the Northern California press is going to let this one dry up for a while. They are on it pretty heavy right now.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
rz1 - I tend to agree with your assessment.

A difference might(?) be that I don't think the Northern California press is going to let this one dry up for a while. They are on it pretty heavy right now.

rz1's assessment may be true but again, so what if participation dwindles? Is it ego that is driving the sport? Is it like Karate where kids are given ever higher colored belts in order to keep them coming back for more lessons?

Why is baseball so popular in Latin America? Are they using $400 DeMarini's down there?

I argue that baseball is bigger than Dad's ego and it will overcome eventually.

quote:

I know that many of our members and readers here hold some kind of power in baseball. Either you are a coach or some other baseball decision maker. Rather than try and change the whole system from the top down, why not change this from the bottom up. Why not change to wood now ( on the team or teams you have influence) so maybe another injury of this severity can be averted.

CD-



------------------------

It's already happened. The new BBCOR ratings basically turn this into a moot point.

Next year in NCAA and 2012 for HS.

quote:

Originally posted by 1baseballdad:
It's already happened. The new BBCOR ratings basically turn this into a moot point.

Next year in NCAA and 2012 for HS.

I think we can agree that force equals mass times acceleration.

Do the new BBCOR ratings ensure that hollow metal bats cannot be swung any faster than solid wood bats?

As a secondary issue, does the enlarged sweet spot on a metal bat increase the odds of injury?

How do the BBCOR ratings address these issues and thus make this issue moot?

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
rz1's assessment may be true but again, so what if participation dwindles?
CD I agree 100% but isn't participation the driving force of grass root missions?

Is it ego that is driving the sport?
Is it the initial sensitive reactions to gunners plight that puts folks on the initial bandwagon only then to jump off when the their voice is not reacted to immediately? I see this similar situation every year in WI when a deer hunter is shot. The press jumps out and the anti gun factions throws up their arms for the sake of "reason". When all is said and done the gun manufacturers make ammo for longer range, and the hunting public embraces it because of the passion of the hunt. Is this similar to the wood/metal scenario?

Is it like Karate where kids are given ever higher colored belts in order to keep them coming back for more lessons?
Hey watch it...........I've been a green belt since 1976 then I thought why break boards if it hurts?

Why is baseball so popular in Latin America? Are they using $400 DeMarini's down there?
Would they if they could afford it? My guess is if they had a tool that gave them a better chance to be seen they would be all over it. Black market PED use down there is a good example

I argue that baseball is bigger than Dad's ego and it will overcome eventually.
I argue that as long as Dad's ego can be bought by our free market system, manufacturers will win with Dads support.

"Do the new BBCOR ratings ensure that hollow metal bats cannot be swung any faster than solid wood bats?"

You lost me on that one. 30 ounces is 30 ounces, no matter if it is metal or wood.

The BBCOR specifications address the issues that BESR didn't as it pertains to performance.


The rating is completly different than BESR.

Lots to digest....

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files...20FINAL%205%2009.pdf

quote:

You lost me on that one. 30 ounces is 30 ounces, no matter if it is metal or wood.

No it is you that have lost me. The issue is about weight distribution. It is not about 30 versus 30. There was another gentlemen (brute 66?) who posted in the helmet thread where he talked about in one case the majority of the weight is in the barrel head and that effects how fast one can swing the bat. If the BBCOR ratings address that issue then I am open to listening. Perhaps someone with direct knowledge of this can chime in.

quote:

You lost me on that one. 30 ounces is 30 ounces, no matter if it is metal or wood.

My son and I weigh the the same but out weight is distributed differently.

I'm a firm believer that a message has been sent to bat manufactures that a change may be in the air from a legal standpoint. It is now in their lap to make adjustments that will appease most, but not all the people.

You will never satisfy everyone.

rz1 - pretty good analogy about the deer hunters. Some states have addressed the issue however. In Ohio for example, only shotguns that shoot slugs are allowed for deer hunting. The effective range of slugs is hundreds of yards versus miles of a high-powered round (e.g., 30-06) for example. In Pa, high-powered rifles are allowed. Every year, about 1 million deer hunters take to Pa's forests. Pa averages about 1 hunting death per year.

Its about the moment of inertia. Here is a good explanation:

quote:

Technically we are talking about the moment-of-inertia of the bat. MOI is the product of mass and the square of a distance - which while not the same as the center-of-mass (CM) location is strongly influenced by the balance point. The closer the CM is to the handle, the lower the MOI will be. Several studies have shown that swing speed depends strongly on the moment-of-inertia of the bat; a player can swing a lower inertia bat faster. This affects performance because higher bat speed is directly related to higher batted ball speed. The faster a player can swing a bat, the higher the final speed of the ball. Lowering the inertia of the bat too much will result in a lower amount of momentum that the bat carries into the collision, reducing the batted ball speed. Ideally a player should use a bat with a high moment of inertia and swing it really fast - but this is difficult unless you are really strong (which is why many baseball and softball players undergo weight training regimens during the off-season in order to bulk up their strength and increase swing speed). Getting back to the comparison of wood and aluminum bats, an aluminum bat with the same weight as a wood bat will have a significantly lower inertia and can thus be swung faster than the wood bat.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
rz1 - pretty good analogy about the deer hunters. Some states have addressed the issue however.

I figured an outdoors type person would bring that up but my thought is that those rules were made primarily for the safety of the non-hunter who was just hanging around the house and being struck by a stray bullet. Many times it is a non-hunter who is hit. I compare this to the baseball fan who gets hit by a foul ball or errant throw. In this case the shotgun rule is much like screens and netting around a baseball field. To protect the non-participant.

However I do see your analogy being thought worthy.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
Its about the moment of inertia. Here is a good explanation:

quote:

Technically we are talking about the moment-of-inertia of the bat. MOI is the product of mass and the square of a distance - which while not the same as the center-of-mass (CM) location is strongly influenced by the balance point. The closer the CM is to the handle, the lower the MOI will be. Several studies have shown that swing speed depends strongly on the moment-of-inertia of the bat; a player can swing a lower inertia bat faster. This affects performance because higher bat speed is directly related to higher batted ball speed. The faster a player can swing a bat, the higher the final speed of the ball. Lowering the inertia of the bat too much will result in a lower amount of momentum that the bat carries into the collision, reducing the batted ball speed. Ideally a player should use a bat with a high moment of inertia and swing it really fast - but this is difficult unless you are really strong (which is why many baseball and softball players undergo weight training regimens during the off-season in order to bulk up their strength and increase swing speed). Getting back to the comparison of wood and aluminum bats, an aluminum bat with the same weight as a wood bat will have a significantly lower inertia and can thus be swung faster than the wood bat.

Not sure who made this statement, but they are right on. While the hollow bat manufacturers are being squeezed a little on the "trampoline" characteristics (COR) by the BBCOR regs, they are optimizing the MOI such that their hollow bats will ALWAYS have a swing speed advantage over solid bats. They will, as a result, ALWAYS produce a higher ball exit speed than a traditional solid-core baseball bat.

If there was a sincere effort by the parties involved to make hollow bats more "wood like" as they claim, the focus would be on matching up the MOI characteristics with that of wood bats.

quote:

If I'm a coach, I'm not asking my team to use wood when the team I'm facing is using metal. Its uneven competition

Actually, it could work the other way where if the team with metal wins, it's a hollow victory. Obviously if a team is going in with wood and can play with metal, they''re making a statement and maybe the other team gets the message and it spreads. Grassroots..That's how stuff gets done. Otherwise, let the government mandate wood across the board.

Excellent point...

Would you rather have a Hollow Victory...

or a Solid Victory?

We have used wood against teams using metal and won---

Justbaseball,

Unfortunately the USF coach is shakey on his knowledge of baseball history and I think when making arguments on such a controversial subject we ne to get our facts right. Baseball did not go to helmets in 1920 when Chapman of Cleveland was killed by a pitch. Helmets were not used until the mid 1950's and even then often inserts were used or players were not required to use them. Some players such as Ted Williams were not using helmets as late as 1960. The ear flap type was not made manditory until around 1970. I am not arguing against wood as I agree we should go to wood also but baseball has in general been very slow to react even in the face of tragedies.

In 1987 in our 1st year of the Area Code games, the Chicago Cubs allowed me to coach the AC team for 2 months prior to the August Area Code games at Zuppo field in Lodi. We played 24 games in June and July
[probably the 1st travel team].

Of course, we used wood bats and played the strong Legion teams of Northern California and Nevada.
On this team was 12 future Major League players.
All the opposing teams used metal bats and we won 80% of the games.

An interesting fact was the outfielders on the opposing team. On ball hit into the air the outfielders misjudged the ball, because they were used to the sound of the mental bat.

It is relative easy to defeat a team using metal bats.

Bob Williams

MOI...BESR...BBCOR. Man oh man there is a lot of good and mis-information floating around.

Great article that talks about it from a Professor of Physics at the University of Illinois.

"Let’s talk briefly about how bat performance is measured in the laboratory. Details can be found at this web site. Briefly, the basic idea is to fire a baseball from a high-speed air cannon at speeds up to about 140 mph onto the barrel of a stationary bat that is held horizontally and supported at the handle. Both the incoming and rebounding ball pass through a series of light screens, which are used to measure accurately its speed. The collision efficiency q is the ratio of rebounding to incoming speed. The MOI is measured by suspending the bat vertically and allowing it to swing freely like a pendulum while supported at the handle. The MOI is related to the period of the pendulum. Once q and the MOI are known, these can be plugged into a well-established formula to determine the BBCOR. To calculate BBS, the master formula is used along with a prescription for specifying the pitch and bat speeds, the latter of which will depend inversely on the MOI.

Various organizations use this information in different ways to regulate the performance of bats. The Amateur Softball Association regulates BBS, using laboratory measurements of q and MOI along with the prescriptions noted above to calculate BBS using the master formula. For the past decade, the NCAA has regulated baseball bats by requiring that q is below some maximum value and the MOI is above some minimum value, the latter limiting the swing speed. Together the upper limit on q and lower limit on the MOI effectively limit the maximum BBS. The maximum q is set to be the same for nonwood as for wood. The lower limit on MOI is such that the best-performing nonwood bat outperforms wood by about 5 mph. You may have seen the words “BESR Certified” stamped on NCAA bats. The BESR is shorthand for the Ball Exit Speed Ratio; numerically, BESR = q + 1/2. Starting in 2011, the NCAA will instead regulate the BBCOR, taking advantage of the fact that for bats of a given BBCOR, the BBS does not depend strongly on MOI. Moreover, the NCAA has set the maximum BBCOR to be right at the wood level, so it is expected that nonwood bats used in NCAA will perform nearly identically to wood starting next year."

The rest of the article.

I have read that many times. I have heard that argument many times. But it is simply bogus and here is why.

When a baseball is struck on the sweet spot with a metal bat and a baseball is struck on the sweet spot with a wood bat - they come off just as hot. There is basically no difference.

But here is the kicker and if you dont understand this you simply dont get around the game enough.

It is much easier to strike a baseball on the sweet spot with a metal bat. For many many reasons. There are WAY more smoke balls in a metal bat contest than there are in a wood bat contest. Way more opportunities for dangerous situations. All you have to do is go to enough games played with wood and go to enough games played with metal to see the HUGE difference I am talking about. There are 9 inning games with college players in the summer where you might see 2 or 3 shots. You will see 2 or 3 shots in an inning when these same players play with metal.

Check out the scores of metal bat games vs wood bat games with college players and hs players. Check out the power numbers with metal bats vs wood bats with these same players.

You can give all the lab results you want. They do not take into account the fact that it is much harder to square it up with wood and produce that SHOT than it is with metal bats. Even for advanced hitters.

Anyone who believes that wood bats and metal bats perform in actually play on the field in the same manner is out of touch with reality. In a lab - yes. The game is not played in a lab. Is it?

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:

quote:

If I'm a coach, I'm not asking my team to use wood when the team I'm facing is using metal. Its uneven competition

Actually, it could work the other way where if the team with metal wins, it's a hollow victory. Obviously if a team is going in with wood and can play with metal, they''re making a statement and maybe the other team gets the message and it spreads. Grassroots..That's how stuff gets done. Otherwise, let the government mandate wood across the board.

Exhibitions are one thing, but, at most levels where victories are a premium because of advancements in tournaments or conference standings, I have a hard time thinking that a coach would put his team behind that 8-ball. That is why I believe this whole wood vs metal has to many intangibles, too many opinions, and too many factions that cannot agree on a "mission statement" to make baseball a "wood only" experience.

"You can give all the lab results you want. They do not take into account the fact that it is much harder to square it up with wood and produce that SHOT than it is with metal bats. Even for advanced hitters."

With all due respect, I don't think anyone would argue that a metal or composite bat has a sweet spot the same size as a wood bat. Those bats are clearly much more forgiving than wood. That isn't the issue. The issue is how hot it actually comes off that sweet spot.

BESR didn't address that and BBCOR does which is a good thing. The metal bats have gotten insane. BTW, I love wood bat tournaments and am a big fan of wood. Son loves to hit with it as well. Down side is he breaks 4 or 5 a season and then you could argue that safety issue (flying pieces of wood)...but I won’t.

It sounds like the new BBCOR ratings are a big step in the right direction. Time will tell if the manufactures will be able exploit the new rules.

I may be in the minority here, but I think there is a place in the game for both wood and metal. My son is a Sr in HS this year and at that level I believe wood should be used. However, at the younger levels up to about 14, I believe the players benefit from the use of metal.

Obviously, the metal -10 drop bats allow the younger and lesser developed (size & strength) players to swing for the fences or produce a quality AB. But by they time most kids reach the HS level, they are beginning to fill out and can comfortably swing a piece of wood.

As I said, my son is a Sr in HS and is 6'1" and about 195lbs. (physically he is a full grown man) I wouldn't want to be on the mound or playing up at the corner when he tags one with a metal bat in his hands.

JMO

Here's my take. I stand 40 feet from home plate and throw BP every day since 1979... the bats have never been hotter than they are now. BESR is a flipping joke.
I don't trust BBCOR either as I see them both as ploys to empty your inventory and then re-stock your supplies. They do it with javelins and pole vaulting poles too..

*

Agree 100% skipper!

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
Here's my take. I stand 40 feet from home plate and throw BP every day since 1979... the bats have never been hotter than they are now. BESR is a flipping joke.
I don't trust BBCOR either as I see them both as ploys to empty your inventory and then re-stock your supplies. They do it with javelins and pole vaulting poles too..

*

They start messing with my fishing pole I am going to be miffed!

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
Exhibitions are one thing, but, at most levels where victories are a premium because of advancements in tournaments or conference standings, I have a hard time thinking that a coach would put his team behind that 8-ball. That is why I believe this whole wood vs metal has to many intangibles, too many opinions, and too many factions that cannot agree on a "mission statement" to make baseball a "wood only" experience.

I agree that most coaches wouldn't put their team behind the 8-ball since a coachs job is to get his team prepared and put in the best position to win ballgames. However, if leagues and organizations don't attempt to go back to wood, then government should step in and ban metal if organizations won't.
'
No matter what kind of studies, science and spin are put on metal bats, the bottom line is the ball jumps off metal bats far better than wood. Sure the sweet spot will cause the ball to jump off both wood and metal but anybody who says there's no difference in wood vs metal hasn't seen enough wood bat games or played with wood bats.

All things being equal, just the fact that a team playing with metal vs a team with wood has the upperhand says it all.

quote:

Originally posted by sportsfan5:


Obviously, the metal -10 drop bats allow the younger and lesser developed (size & strength) players to swing for the fences or produce a quality AB.
JMO

With the size disparities, height and weight of kids 10-14 years old, would also put the younger and lesser developed pitchers at greater risk.

Go look at any 12u travel team. Bet you have 12" and 40 pounds of size difference on each roster. Put the little kid on the mound at 80 pounds against some kid much bigger.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
However, if leagues and organizations don't attempt to go back to wood, then government should step in and ban metal if organizations won't.

That would open Pandoras box in regard to government intervention in every facet of society where a minority wants drastic change.

IMO there is no absolute fix that would satisfy all sides. I honestly believe the max allowable level has been met, the public has let their opinions be known, testing has proven the potential, and now it's time to let the bat manufacturers play with the technology and find an acceptable medium that is acceptable to both the elite and recreational player.

Zombywolf;

WHY the advantage, I disagree.

bob

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:

You can give all the lab results you want. They do not take into account the fact that it is much harder to square it up with wood and produce that SHOT than it is with metal bats. Even for advanced hitters.

Anyone who believes that wood bats and metal bats perform in actually play on the field in the same manner is out of touch with reality. In a lab - yes. The game is not played in a lab. Is it?

Coach May has it right. It is the number of "hot" shots per game that increases with a metal bat because of the increased sweet spot. The larger number of "hot" shots increases the chances of one not being able to be reacted to by a fielder (ie -the pitcher) therefore the chance of injury is greater in a metal bat game. Exit speed in a lab cannot measure what happens in a real game on the field. It only measures what happens in a lab -- a useless thing.
If there is a way to make a metal bat have the same sweet spot as a wooden bat, that would be a useful thing... but how could the bat companies then justify the $300+ price tag of each bat. Oh I forgot...$$$$. As long as the bat companies are in the pockets of college coaches it will take the government getting involved to change things. Just what we need.

Problem Solved:
All games played in Lab shall use metal.
All games played on field shall use wood.

Where's the easy button?

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
Problem Solved:
All games played in Lab shall use metal.
All games played on field shall use wood.

Where's the easy button?

That's funny

How many games have these lab techs attended? How many of them have actually played the game with wood bats and metal bats? How many of them have had to look at their child laying on a hospital bed with part of their skull missing?

How many young kids will have to die? How many parents will have to go through what Gunnar's parents are having to deal with?

If it saves just one mans life is it worth it? What if its your kid is it worth it then?