Staying Closed

I've noticed. And I've thought about it a lot. I think part of the reason there is no "concrete" approach is because there are multiple things that can pull a pitcher open early: postural instability (head moving in directions other than at the target), glove instability (pulling, dropping or flying open), and even mound conditions.

Often, when I want to implement a change at one point in a pitcher's delivery, I'll try to find an adjustment upstream from that point that will let the desired change be the result as I believe it will happen in a more natural way when it results from something else instead of being dictated directly. I have yet to come up with a good upstream adjustment to effect the 'result" of staying closed. The best teach I know of is the NPA's teach of getting the arm into an "equal and opposite" position as close to foot plant as possible. The "equal and opposite" part is he mechanical part while the "as close to foot plant" part is the timing part. Staying closed is partly a mechanical issue but it is equally, if not more, about timing of mechanical movements.

It is my experience that there are two keys to staying closed, or maybe a better term is two elements that need to be managed. Glove side action is critical, it varies from pitcher to pitcher but the high elbow and glove turning in is key. Also the body moves to the glove not the other way around. The old tuck and “pull the glove in to the body” is one of the old “teaches” that is a disaster and anyone still teaching it does not understand pitching mechanics. The other factor is foot drive and how it behaves that causes the front side to open. There are lots of different approaches, but getting the heal cleats driving to the target is key. The other thing that you did not mention in your post, but is equally important IMO for high velocity pitchers is getting into the right position at footstike, but “staying back” and not leaking the front side through so you can maximize the built up tension in the body and maximize the velocity potential. Anyone of these things happen and you loose a tremendous amount of velocity.

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The old tuck and “pull the glove in to the body” is one of the old “teaches” that is a disaster and anyone still teaching it does not understand pitching mechanics

Spot on analysis by both BOF and Roger.
I agree with both the answers they postulate. Proper posture/mechanics is the only true "teach" for correct frontside presentation.

D'oh on the head, for young pitchers the primary starting point. Where the nose goes so does the body....

I did not even think of it since I know how old CADad's son is....

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Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
I've noticed. And I've thought about it a lot. I think part of the reason there is no "concrete" approach is because there are multiple things that can pull a pitcher open early: postural instability (head moving in directions other than at the target), glove instability (pulling, dropping or flying open), and even mound conditions.

Often, when I want to implement a change at one point in a pitcher's delivery, I'll try to find an adjustment upstream from that point that will let the desired change be the result as I believe it will happen in a more natural way when it results from something else instead of being dictated directly. I have yet to come up with a good upstream adjustment to effect the 'result" of staying closed. The best teach I know of is the NPA's teach of getting the arm into an "equal and opposite" position as close to foot plant as possible. The "equal and opposite" part is he mechanical part while the "as close to foot plant" part is the timing part. Staying closed is partly a mechanical issue but it is equally, if not more, about timing of mechanical movements.

"Equal and Opposite" position. Please expand on what that means.

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Equal and Opposite" position. Please expand on what that means.

Both arms/elbows are at the same height and alignment. Ones not higher or lower than the other.

According to the NPA, "equal and opposite" really just means "equal bends at the elbows". Arms can be bent different directions: one up and one down, one up and one horizontal, both horizontal, etc - doesn't matter. It also doesn't matter whether the glove is pointed at the target, turned thumb down/palm out, tucked under the forearm, etc. The goal isn't to dictate every little detail and clone pitchers. The goal is simply to have some symmetry to aid balance and timing. Balance is aided by keeping the weight of the arms about equidistant from the center of the body. Timing is aided because the time taken to extend the glove arm out front to mirror the throwing arm is time that the shoulders get to stay closed.

BTW, the NPA says that if an adjustment needs to be made to achieve "equal and opposite", it should be made to the glove side arm - not the throwing arm.

Fistly,I am of the opinion that there are no bad cues. If it works for you whether it is biomechanically sound or not, it is a good cue if it puts YOU in a position to be execute your pitches.Our bodies interpret verbal cues in different ways. Secondly there are virtually no absolutes(always or nevers) that aply to every pitcher.

That leads us into the cue "stay closed". A cue that is very general & highly interpretive to me. Does it mean hips & shoulders closed? Does it mean shoulders closed & not hips? What degree of closedness is ok? Is counter rotation of the shoulders ok? Is counter rotation of the hips & shoulders ok? Should I stride closed? How far? Obviously if your teaching style is more Socratic in nature, you you will be able to have an exchange with your athletes & find out exactly how they interpret your cues.Ideally this process is a team effort( "Guided discovery").

My issue with "staying closed" is one of direction.( Not applicable to submarine or sidearm pitchers) After tempo & intent direction becomes the most critical element for me. Bad direction leads to a multitude of problems, most of which lead to injuries.When you stride too far across your body &/or your stride foot is too closed you have to:

1. Work extremely hard to yank the ball back into the target line.

2. Your forearm flies away from your body & your elbow slams into your elbow joint.

3. You are decelerating your arm by pulling it across your body. ( Inefficient deceleration & your body will not allow you to accelerate to the maximum of your capabilities) Ideally we decelerate by keeping our hand pronated & moving towards our target,rotate our shoulders 180 degrees, & recover by letting our arm relax as it finishes across our body.

4. Chances are your arm will be late producing arm side elevated misses.

5. In general poor aplication of force.

6. Knee, ankle & hip problems.

7. Command issues.

I could go on but will not prolong my harangue.Plus I have seen Jared Weaver pitch very effectively across his body & I did see Bumgardner last night. I did not say that you can't get hitters out pitching closed(Across your body) or did I say that there isn't some value relative to deception.What I am saying IMO that in general staying too closed creates more problems than solutions.The same is true for flying open prematurely.

Some thoughts on direction:
1. Load your hips but keep your shoulders aligned to the plate. Stride leg knee going towards throwing arm shoulder.

2. Stay over the rubber by leading with your hips. As the stride leg knee is moving towards your throwing arm shoulder, your pivot foot knee is moving inside your pivot foot.(Scissors action). This is going to produce some shoulder tilt(3/4 & above throwers) which helps the arm to get up to its power position on time & take advantage of the momentum created early in your delivery.

3. Timing of hand separation is very individualized & dependent upon arm stroke & arm speed.The key is when your stride foot hits you arm is up in a "power v" position.

4. Your stride line is pretty much to the center of the plate for pitches to the middle of the plate or to the pitcher's arm side. Some pitchers will make a imperceptible adjustment away from their arm side when they are throwing away from their arm side or slightly change their pivot foot angle at the rubber( stride foot toe slightly closer to home plate than their stride foot heel).A good adjustment as far as I am concerned.

5. Stride foot no more closed than 12:30 striding heel to toe or flat footed.Hips are rotating into foot plant while shoulders stay closed to create a torque angle between your top & lower half.

6.With good alignment delivery tempo is critical in order to take advantage of momentum built up early in the kinetic chain of events & to take full advatage of the stretch reflex.

Sorry for being long winded here.Hope this stimulates some thinking in this area.
JW

Jerry,
When I say staying closed I meant what you call #5 with the shoulders aligned with the target at foot plant or even slightly more closed. The degree to which the hips have opened varies from pitcher to pitcher as not everyone is as flexible as Lincecum.

BTW, I think a lot of pitchers who swing the leg around like Weaver tend to stride closed as an adjustment to keep the shoulders from opening too early. Weaver is an extreme case.

My original point then was that I haven't seen many concrete approaches to teaching #5.

Jared Weaver is an extreme counter rotator. His stride leg & foot go well past the rubber & his shoulders line up with the shortstop. The only way he can come out of this loading phase is to swing his leg & land somewhat closed. However his stride foot is not closed & he is still rotating into foot plant.

My concern is when a pitcher's direction is so closed that he cannot apply force efficiently & he increases his chances of injury.

Bold statement, but i don't believe there is any exact science behind pitching. EVERYONE is different this is why i always say that 'you should always do what works for you'. If flying open gets guys out at high levels (college, professional, and major leagues) then that's what you should do. Would i recommend staying closed? Absolutely, but it depends on the pitcher. If the pitcher gets guys out on a regular basis with flying open then leave him alone. But the main reason for telling a pitcher to stay closed is to:
a) Have him throw in a straight line, and reduce the chance of injury
b) It creates late torque which usually generates more velocity.

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Originally posted by Roger Tomas:
The best teach I know of is the NPA's teach of getting the arm into an "equal and opposite" position as close to foot plant as possible.

Roger - about equal and oppo ... is it only important to see it happening at footplant, or do you tend to like to see it starting at hand separation and leading up to footstrike? But just not as important until footstrike... ?

I have a question that hopefully someone here might have some insight too. I have a 16 year old RHP that seems to rotate hips and shoulders about the same time. His shoulders start to rotate at foot plant, so I am assuming that hip rotation is late and or insuficent. Any tricks out there that might correct this?

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Originally posted by danramosd:
But the main reason for telling a pitcher to stay closed is to:
a) Have him throw in a straight line, and reduce the chance of injury
b) It creates late torque which usually generates more velocity.

A couple other good reasons to stay closed are:
c) It allows you to get your release point closer to home plate.
d) It allows you to hide the ball longer.

But I wouldn't underestimate the importance on reducing the chance of injury. Opening up early and having to play catch-up with the arm pitch after pitch, game after game, tournament after tournament, season after season for a player who also experiences overuse is a big problem.

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Originally posted by danimal:
I have a question that hopefully someone here might have some insight too. I have a 16 year old RHP that seems to rotate hips and shoulders about the same time. His shoulders start to rotate at foot plant, so I am assuming that hip rotation is late and or insuficent. Any tricks out there that might correct this?

What I found that works with my son at least is for him to actually wind uo more with a higher leg lift and in so doing show his back more to home plate. Mentally they need to think about showing their number to the batter for as long as possible. I have found that this extra twist in their torso equates to a later rotation and better separation. For the lower body, it is automatic for the hips to open up at foot contact- it just happens. By allowing the upper body to thus be twisted more and the mental approach of believeing in letting the batter see your backside longer really works in creating the necessary separation between the hip and shoulder rotation. Some pitching coaches don't like all these gyrations which lead to a more rotational drive towards the plate but I stand as witness that it works. Lincecum comes to mind as having one of the greatest hip and shoulder separations due entirely from showing more backside towards the batter for a greater length of time. Pitchers don't need to think about their hips rotating- that happens naturally as they start to land on their front foot. All they need to keep as mental note is showing the backside more- and longer.

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Originally posted by Steven Ellis:
Roger - about equal and oppo ... is it only important to see it happening at footplant, or do you tend to like to see it starting at hand separation and leading up to footstrike? But just not as important until footstrike... ?

I normally don't care about how the arms get to equal and opposite - just that they get there. I don't normally mess with the throwing arm - at least not directly. If the throwing arm is doing something funky, you can usually clean that up without directly dictating the arm motion by increasing the pitcher's tempo down the hill. The lower half establishes the timing of the overall delivery which, in turn, establishes the timing available to the arm motion. If the arm has time to do something funky, speeding up the delivery will often eliminate that "extra" time in the delivery causing unnecessary arm movement to be eliminated.

The glove arm, on the other hand, can be tricky. Whereas the throwing arm being too quick isn't usually a problem, it often is a problem with the glove arm. This is where getting to equal and opposite at foot plant comes in. It makes the glove arm take more time before it swivels.

quote:

Originally posted by danimal:
I have a question that hopefully someone here might have some insight too. I have a 16 year old RHP that seems to rotate hips and shoulders about the same time. His shoulders start to rotate at foot plant, so I am assuming that hip rotation is late and or insuficent. Any tricks out there that might correct this?

It's more likely early shoulder rotation than it is late hip rotation. In fact, you really want late hip rotation.

First thing I'd look at is postural instability and glove instability (failing to get to equal and opposite at foot plant) as these things will often lead to early shoulder rotation.

Roger Tomas,

Not sure if I've ever posted this, but I have a lot of respect for the knowledge you display.

I have always told pitchers to think and throw with their belly. You can not do this if you open up (rotate hips) too early. It also helps with control, especially if you learn to throw with your belly "button". Provided I have described this clearly... Do you agree with this theory.

Thanks for the kind words, PG.

I should clarify my comment about "late hip rotation". The hips will start to open up to accommodate the front leg/foot opening up into foot plant. How much is determined by the pitcher's flexibility (or lack thereof). We want the remainder of hip rotation to occur after foot plant and after the front leg braces.

Can't say I've heard your cue to "throw with your belly" before but if putting a pitcher's focus on that achieves the desired result, then it's a good cue for that pitcher. I don't normally instruct hip rotation. Often, if a pitcher is opening the hips early then he is opening the front leg early as well and so fix will be focused keeping the front leg closed longer. Whatever the problem in a pitcher's delivery, you gotta' search backwards through the delivery to find the earliest cause.

Back in the old days it was common practice to have pitchers point the front toe directly at the catcher. Without great flexibility this only caused pitchers to open too early. We still see this a lot these days.

We have had good results using the belly as a reference point. It is my belief that the high velocity guys will have their belt buckle pointed in the direction of 3B (RHP), 1B (LHP), at or very close to foot touch.

The belly button reference revolves around our belief that at release point the ball is going to go directly where the belly button is pointed.

Perhaps the best way to achieve the desired results is to have the pitcher spread out (No Stride) at the bottom of the mound and throw from a stationary position. Without proper use of the midsection and hips along with keeping the top half back a pitcher will not be able to throw very well. Once the timing is figured out and the pitcher can throw with decent velocity from this position we take him back up the mound and tell him to concentrate on using his belly. This has worked very well with some. We also have used blind pitching which is based on "feel" rather than eye sight.

Many pitchers will gain 2 to 5 MPH instantly if they have that ability. Of course, the difficulty is in repeating this the next time out.

Zach Hammes was a big RHP in HS that threw 89-91 as a junior. Early in his senior year we used the exact thing mentioned above. During that same session he went up to 94. Later that spring he became a second round pick by the Dodgers.

Part of the reason I do things this way is because I'm not very smart. Not intelligent enough to understand all the scientific terms used these days. So it really becomes more of a common sense thing for me using the simplest possible techniques. It has actually worked out fairly well.

Obviously there's much more to things and much I don't know.

PG,
When the pitcher is at the bottom of the mound how did you have them oriented? Were they facing the plate and then rotated back or were they in a closed position to begin with?

It sounds a lot like what is called backwards chaining these days.

Closed position. RHP facing 3B

Jerry W,
I've been going over some video clips and as far as I can tell almost every pitcher who counter rotates strides in the direction their hips are pointed. It looks like most plant almost as closed as their stride direction.

The most glaring exception would be Chapman who seems to be able to keep his shoulders more than closed while rotating into foot plant.

Despite the difference in their builds there seems to be a lot of similarity between Wagner and Chapman at foot plant.

Matt Cain seems to rotate all the way back to being lined up but he seems to make up for it by delaying the arm a lot early on.

The term closed means past the field driveline (line between home and second running through the mound) towards the ball arm side.
Open means before the field driveline towards the glove arm side of the field driveline.
Neutral mean right on the field driveline.
Closed positions at initial arrival to transition phase (foot plant) results in injurious force applications during initial acceleration phase because of forearm flyout causing Humeral head slide within the Scapula’s Fossa causing shoulder injuries then this gateway allows for more natural forearm supination outcomes leading to elbow injuries.

Clarifying what body part to what timing is why discussing landing, staying ,being or remaining closed has it’s problems.

CaDad,
As far as direction is concerned, even the extreme counter rotators( Tiant/Jared Weaver),try to get back on line by rotating into foot plant. Weaver's stride line is pretty closed but his stride foot is straight. I think that this allows him to reduce the amount of "forearm flyout" ( a Marshall term that indicates that the throwing forearm is moving away from the head in a horizontal arc outside of vertical.)Yardbird indicted that this puts stress on the shoulder.For me, it puts a lot of stress on the elbow as well. Plus it is probably not the most efficient way to apply force.

As far as Chapman is concerned he has changed his windup delivery since signing to play in the States. As an amateur in Cuba, he did not rotate his knee as far past his posting leg & he did not break at the waist as much to bring his chest to his knee.However,he did sit to pitch in Cuba as he does now, had a long arm stabbing arm action, & had a significant scap pinch(elbows behind his shoulder line).He rotates into foot plant with decent direction & keeps his top half closed late.He finishes with over 180 degrees of shoulder rotation, which I think is a good thing because it gives him a long arc of deceleration.He does not rapidly pull his throwing arm across his body. Out of the stretch, he is more of a knee to knee modified slide stepper.

Billy Wagner is much different. He has a horizontal take away,lifts with his elbows, has a lower arm slot at release, & lifts his stride leg knee to his glove side shoulder.I do agree that Chapman & Wagner have similar direction to the plate.

Staying closed in reference to what I'm describing is not landing closed and then throwing across the body.

Not talking about after foot plant or position pitcher is throwing from, I'm talking about keeping the "body" closed to or into stride foot landing. (belt buckle pointed at 3B for RHP throughout the stride) If anyone can find a still shot of any pitcher with great velocity who is not closed (hips/midsection open) at or just before foot plant, please let me know. I've looked at hundreds and never seen a single high velocity pitcher who opens early. It's my opinion that opening too early is a common problem in high school age pitchers.

In other words the opposite of opening too early would be staying closed. The direction or the path is another thing.

Though there have been, and are, some that are very successful throwing across their body. The danger involved (shoulder/elbow) is the risk, for some the reward is evidently worth that risk. That is another discussion.

PG,
I think the one's who stride closed do so in order to keep from rotating open. I realize that one can stride closed and be open. However, by striding closed one doesn't rotate as much into foot plant and that tends to keep the hips and shoulders from rotating open. I believe that is why even though the rotation has the potential to add to velocity most pitching coaches teach driving straight to the plate. It is much easier to stay closed when you don't rotate significantly into foot plant.

The similarity I saw between Chapman and Wagner was how closed their shoulders were at foot plant despite rotating into foot plant. I don't think it is a coincidence that they both throw incredibly hard.

Weaver swings his leg around a bit but he really doesn't rotate into foot plant much if at all IMO. Some pitchers can swing their leg around without opening their hips. If you took a statue of Weaver at foot plant and rotated it around to the point where his stride was lined up with the plate without anything else moving his shoulders and everything would be closed but not counter rotated. On the other hand if Weaver the human being was to continue to rotate into foot plant such that his stride was toward the plate his shoulders would almost certainly be wide open by the time he reached foot plant and his arm would have externally rotated far too soon.

To take this to a ridiculous and impossible extreme simply for the purpose of illustration if a pitcher were to stride toward 3b in order to throw to the plate then if their belly button was pointing toward 3b at footstrike they'd be wide open. In that case, their belly button would have to be pointed toward center field for them to be closed.

I know that a pitching coah recently tried to change my sons front leg and he lost some velocity. He tried to change him to stride more linear towards home plate rather than out and around like he has always done it. I think it is a matter of personal preference. If someone could help me with how to load a video to the page I could show a video of son from above showing the out and around and yet he doesn't open up too early.

Loading videos is simple.

Sign up for a you tube account.

Load the video to the site. Set video for open to all.

Once rendered you will get a address in your browser for the video.

Paste in the link to the site, via the URL button.

Here is my son pitching from above. He does have some rotational leg swing-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGfVRaw1OcE

gman, his technique looks pretty good, but he seems to be trying to balance on the rubber instead of pushing off right away. This cue myth robs power.

And I always felt he was rushing and pushing off a little too much in this video.

Nice looking boy there GBM.

The angle is difficult and you should get video from the front and side. He is not doing anything that will hurt himself but he has a lot of things he can do to really improve.

He looks like a typical freshman. He will grow and develop and get stronger and when he does this, his legs will start to support him more. Right now he is pretty much throwing with his arm only. Some of this will occur naturally, but he can accelerate the process by getting into the gym and start to work on his core and legs. There is nothing to do about this but wait for him to develop physically.

Couple of observations.

During his leg lift he pops up on his toes, he has a good leg kick but his heal should stay flat so his head does not bob around. To consistently hit his spots his head must be stable.

His glove side stays closed and but his elbow should be bent so he is more balanced. I would not have a straight arm as there is too much motion for the glove to get to his chest at ball release. There is also some variability in his hand break, it should be at the same point each throw. This aside his glove side is not flying him open.

You are correct in that he swings his leg around. He should learn to drive with his heal more (show his heal cleats to the batter). Look at some video of Zito to see what I am talking about. Get that leg more down the line. That said he does not appear to be landing open, just losing leverage.

All this will get him in the right position at foot strike and then work on him staying back and delaying his ball side move to the plate. This will get him significantly more velocity.

The rest is going to come with his physical development. He should be landing with his front leg bent more and then accelerating straight as his upper body comes through, but he is most likely not physically capable to doing this just yet. When he gets to this point his upper body will be parallel to the ground and right after ball release.

I would find a pitching coach who can help him fine tune some of these things and work with him long term, that with some work in the weight room he will be fine and see a significant jump in his velocity.

Thanks for the insights BOF. This video was taken at a winter ball camp last December. The temperatures in the building were about 40-50 degrees (thus the long shirt). His velocity at this event was mostly around 72 (cruising) with some faster and some slower. I will post another video of him 6 months later (summer before entering 9th grade) playing in much warmer weather and from a different angle.

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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
And I always felt he was rushing and pushing off a little too much in this video.

His leg is on its way down and his head is still over the rubber.

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During his leg lift he pops up on his toes

BOF, you're right. I've never noticed anyone do this before. Will start looking now. Learn something new every day.

Here is another angle from the front. This was taken about 5 months later in the spring. This is an inning of just about everything (base hit, couple K's, GO, pick off attempts, steal, differences in set position with runer on first and later with him at second etc)and is kind of long but it shows his leg swing pretty good from this angle. Shows even his slide step is kind of rotational too. Throwing mostly fastballs and a few breaking balls.

From this angle you can really see the rotational leg swing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnqkcUmV0Dg

Looks like he's striding closed rather than swinging around all that much. Most pitchers who counter rotate make that adjustment to keep from opening early. No big deal but there might be a little bit more stress on the arm as a result. Swinging the leg around is not a big deal as long as the hips and shoulders aren't going too early as a result and striding closed helps keep that from happening. Looks pretty decent to me, but I'm no expert and the camera angle could be throwing me off completely.