Stolen Base or not.....

supernole, if the kid is stealing, it doesn't matter if he has already touched 2nd base when the pitch is fouled off, he still goes back.

For the runner to stay at 2nd on a foul ball, he must have acquired the base before the pitcher even BEGINS his motion.

So if the runner steals second, and the pitcher is still getting his sign or is in the set position, and then pitches and has the pitch fouled off, the runner stays at 2nd base, since he has acquired this base before the pitch even began.

alex,

after posting this i got to reading the OBR....

rule 7.01 says

"A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.
Rule 7.01 Comment: If a runner legally acquires title to a base, and the pitcher assumes his pitching position, the runner may not return to a previously occupied base."

based on the comment section, I think the base is his if he touches 2nd before the ball is hit. of course that'd be a judgement call - did he touch the base before the ball was hit...

supernole, you're applying the wrong rule by ignoring the fact that a foul ball undoes any bases acquired during the pitch.

Really, if we ONLY use your rule there, a runner at 1st base can round 2nd on a high foul ball down the left field line. Then, you are saying he can stay at 2nd base even after the foul ball goes out of play, because he has "acquired the right to an unoccupied base by touching it before he is out."

I am prepping at work right now so can't find the rule book and quote anything from it, but the fact that a foul ball nullifies a stolen base if they're part of the same play is Baseball 101 (sorry if it sounds snobbish). I'm sure some guys will quote something on here later today.

Again, the runners would have to steal the base and be on it / past it before the pitcher even BEGAN his delivery, in order to keep the base after a foul ball.

They would have to essentially be two separate plays.

Haven't you seen sometimes where a pitcher forgets that he has a runner on, accidentally goes from the wind-up, the runner easily steals the base, but then the batter swings and fouls it off? The coach yells at the batter for screwing up, because the runner now has to go back to a base that he already had.

quote:

Originally posted by Alex7:
Again, the runners would have to steal the base and be on it / past it before the pitcher even BEGAN his delivery, in order to keep the base after a foul ball.

From the original post:

pitcher let's him have the base and then delivers the pitch - after the man on first has touched second.

Alex,

I'd be interested to see the rule that supports this statement..

"...the runners would have to steal the base and be on it / past it before the pitcher even BEGAN his delivery, in order to keep the base after a foul ball."

that's why i posted the question. i can't find anything that refutes the application of rule 7.01 in this instance.

Jimmy,

say now that the pitcher did begin his delivery and the runner is one step from the next base but doesn't acquire it until the pitch is mid-air. is the base still his? at what point does he have to forfeit the base he legally obtained under rule 7.01?

All that matters is the time of the pitch. If the runner reaches second base prior to the time of the pitch, he would stay there. If he has not yet reached second at the time of the pitch, he would be returned to first on the foul ball.

quote:

Originally posted by supernole1:
Jimmy,

say now that the pitcher did begin his delivery and the runner is one step from the next base but doesn't acquire it until the pitch is mid-air. is the base still his? at what point does he have to forfeit the base he legally obtained under rule 7.01?

Supernole:

You have to quit hanging your hat on one rule. The book is more complex than that with rules referring to, explaining and modifying other rules.

If 7.01 (a) was the end all, mutiple runnners could legally retain a base (dealt with in 7.03), bases could be acquired when the ball was dead and foul balls would advance runners.

To answer your question, if a runner "steals" a base prior to TOP, it is his and he does not retreat if the next pitch is fouled off.

Yes, time of pitch and not "where batter is when ball is fouled off."

Here's the NFHS rule:
8-2-9a. The runner returns to the base occupied at the time of the pitch if his advance was during an uncaught foul.

I'm not sure if OBR or NCAA state the rule as explicitly, but all rule codes treat the runner's return after an uncaught foul ball in the same way.

I think it might be helpful for supernole if we define what Time of the pitch actually is...

NFHS 2-28-Art 3 (condensed)

For the set position, the time of the pitch occurs the instant the pitcher, after coming to a complete and discernable stop, starts any moment with arms or legs that commits him to pitch...

Not to pile on but Supermole, do you agree that the runner returns to the base occupied TOP? If so, then make sure you understand PIAA's TOP explanation. By these two things it becomes obvious that we are telling you correctly.
The important lesson here is that many times you have to piece several rules together to get an answer.

MST and piaa.....

yes i think 3fg's post and piaa answers my question. thanks for the help.

Here's the interpretation from the MLB Umpires Manual. From 5.7:

A runner who advances while the pitcher is in contact with the rubber is considered to occupy the base last touched at the time the pitcher initiatates his actual pitching motion to the batter. The pitching motion is defined as any movement that committs the pitcher to deliver the ball to the batter.

As long as the pitcher is not committed to pitch, a runner may advance and is considered to occupy the base last touched at the time the pitcher initiates his actual delivery to the batter.

The preliminary motions known as the "stretch" is not considered the start of the pitching motion.