Elbow injuries are far more complex than a "late timing" flaw. 3P Sports purports to give you kinematic analysis based on 30 FPS video that you shoot yourself. Good luck with the accuracy of that! We use high-speed cameras at our facility and we're STILL dialing in the margin of error.
http://3psports.com/3pn/3p-pit...ical-video-analysis/
I wrote a blog post about Strasburg and elbow injuries in general here if anyone's interested:
http://www.drivelinebaseball.c...n-strasburg-content/
Kyle,
There has been a study which showed a positive correlation between velocity and elbow injuries. The study was investigating just that hypothesis, rather than looking at it as a side issue. Velocity vs. injury
I'd also recommend that you look at Whitely's review:
"Baseball throwing mechanics as they relate to pathology and performance - a review" Just google and you can find a free copy.
Specifically refer to figure 6 and the accompanying text.
More generically one can see from the review that there are differences in the data and conclusions drawn as to what are the significant variables among those who have performed these studies.
As far as the 30fps goes you simply need quite a few more pitches to be able to get the right points to draw reasonably meaningful conclusions. They are also pretty rigorous in that they won't try to use clips that are not taken using their methodology. They do a fairly good job with what they have although I have a couple images on my hard drive that show how in rare instances the view angle they use for determining if external rotation at foot strike is early or late could be completely erroneous. It is a 3D world and it is amazing how misleading a 2D view can be.
I'm just not impressed with their current marketing campaign which ignores the ASMI data they've based their program on in order to try and sell the product.
There has been a study which showed a positive correlation between velocity and elbow injuries. The study was investigating just that hypothesis, rather than looking at it as a side issue. Velocity vs. injury
I'd also recommend that you look at Whitely's review:
"Baseball throwing mechanics as they relate to pathology and performance - a review" Just google and you can find a free copy.
Specifically refer to figure 6 and the accompanying text.
More generically one can see from the review that there are differences in the data and conclusions drawn as to what are the significant variables among those who have performed these studies.
As far as the 30fps goes you simply need quite a few more pitches to be able to get the right points to draw reasonably meaningful conclusions. They are also pretty rigorous in that they won't try to use clips that are not taken using their methodology. They do a fairly good job with what they have although I have a couple images on my hard drive that show how in rare instances the view angle they use for determining if external rotation at foot strike is early or late could be completely erroneous. It is a 3D world and it is amazing how misleading a 2D view can be.
I'm just not impressed with their current marketing campaign which ignores the ASMI data they've based their program on in order to try and sell the product.
Thanks for the link; I know I've read it but will check it out further.
I have reservations about ASMI's "recommended" ranges, BTW. Just because pro pitchers fall within similar kinematic/kinetic ranges doesn't mean that all pitchers should aspire to fall within those ranges as well. There's a lot of exogenous factors not accounted for, IMO.
Anyway, I agree with you 100%. Evaluating something as basic as MER correctly with 30 FPS video is a perfect example of something that is going to be very error-prone.
I have reservations about ASMI's "recommended" ranges, BTW. Just because pro pitchers fall within similar kinematic/kinetic ranges doesn't mean that all pitchers should aspire to fall within those ranges as well. There's a lot of exogenous factors not accounted for, IMO.
Anyway, I agree with you 100%. Evaluating something as basic as MER correctly with 30 FPS video is a perfect example of something that is going to be very error-prone.
The whole "scap loading" thing is debateable. I know two kids- same size, same age, same relative velocity. Both do this thing called "scap load". Kid A throws harder than Kid B. Kid A has a greater "scap load" than Kid B. Kid A throws 2-3 mph harder than Kid B. Kid A has less follow through than Kid B. Kid A throws more offspeed and breaking pitches than Kid B. Kid A throws offspeed and breaking pitches considerably harder than Kid B. Kid A pitches more innings than Kid B. So who would you guess has the elbow problems?
Kid A has no elbow problems.
Kid B has chronic elbow pain.
I agree that there are several similarities in those who have injury leading to TJS or elbow problems in general. There are also similarities in all hard throwers. There are also similarities in slow throwing pitchers.
In fact, we can find similarities in all pitchers regardless of how fast they throw, if they are healthy or unhealthy, etc. The hard part is correctly identifying the "main" cause of elbow pain or just injuries in general. One of the problems is correctly identifying and defining what mechanics in a pitching motion are considered to be more or less risky. In fact, part of the problem is a general misunderstanding of how muscles and joints operate together. Noy understanding the correct kinematic chain of events ina pitchers mechanics can lead to a lot of misconceptions.
I remember a few years ago how the word going around was that a low arm slot, even sidearm is unhealthy on an arm, and so, kids were throwing too much over the top. Studies have now shown that arm slot is natural according to the laws of physics, meaning that when allowed to let the arm travel in the path of most efficiency, it will always be at a 90 degree angle in relation to the torso, meaning you could literally put a square on their throwing side inbetween their oustretched straight arm and their side and have it be perfectly square. Arm slot is determined by how much one tilts his axis (torso). This led to dispelling many myths about "bad arm slots".
Another one was the effect of curveballs. It was taught for a few decades that throwing too many breaking pitches at an early age led to elbow problems. Instead it was emphasized that only a fastaball and CU should be thrown until growing had diminished in a youths frame. Now, studies have shown that elbow stresses are higher in throwing a fastball than they are in any other type of pitch including breaking balls. This stress factor increases as velocity is increased- a true no-brainer! So, in reality, little Johnny throwing 80 mph fastballs with no breaking balls at 13 years old was potentially more at risk for elbow blowout than little Freddy throwing 70 mph at the same age and mixing curveballs in every 3rd pitch.
Recent studies have also shown that baseball players who start at an early age and throw more than their peers are less likely to have arm problems later on, and, they will also have a higher potential for increased velocity later on.
I am curious to know the real "main" cause of elbow injuries, I just don't buy into the whole "scap load" thing. Every pitcher "scap loads" in some degree or another as a natural part of their throwing motion.
Kid A has no elbow problems.
Kid B has chronic elbow pain.
I agree that there are several similarities in those who have injury leading to TJS or elbow problems in general. There are also similarities in all hard throwers. There are also similarities in slow throwing pitchers.
In fact, we can find similarities in all pitchers regardless of how fast they throw, if they are healthy or unhealthy, etc. The hard part is correctly identifying the "main" cause of elbow pain or just injuries in general. One of the problems is correctly identifying and defining what mechanics in a pitching motion are considered to be more or less risky. In fact, part of the problem is a general misunderstanding of how muscles and joints operate together. Noy understanding the correct kinematic chain of events ina pitchers mechanics can lead to a lot of misconceptions.
I remember a few years ago how the word going around was that a low arm slot, even sidearm is unhealthy on an arm, and so, kids were throwing too much over the top. Studies have now shown that arm slot is natural according to the laws of physics, meaning that when allowed to let the arm travel in the path of most efficiency, it will always be at a 90 degree angle in relation to the torso, meaning you could literally put a square on their throwing side inbetween their oustretched straight arm and their side and have it be perfectly square. Arm slot is determined by how much one tilts his axis (torso). This led to dispelling many myths about "bad arm slots".
Another one was the effect of curveballs. It was taught for a few decades that throwing too many breaking pitches at an early age led to elbow problems. Instead it was emphasized that only a fastaball and CU should be thrown until growing had diminished in a youths frame. Now, studies have shown that elbow stresses are higher in throwing a fastball than they are in any other type of pitch including breaking balls. This stress factor increases as velocity is increased- a true no-brainer! So, in reality, little Johnny throwing 80 mph fastballs with no breaking balls at 13 years old was potentially more at risk for elbow blowout than little Freddy throwing 70 mph at the same age and mixing curveballs in every 3rd pitch.
Recent studies have also shown that baseball players who start at an early age and throw more than their peers are less likely to have arm problems later on, and, they will also have a higher potential for increased velocity later on.
I am curious to know the real "main" cause of elbow injuries, I just don't buy into the whole "scap load" thing. Every pitcher "scap loads" in some degree or another as a natural part of their throwing motion.
GBM,
Amazing how people will jump on a single study. There have been studies that showed that curve balls put additional and different stresses on the elbow. There is also empirical data showing that kids who throw curve balls tend to have more shoulder and elbow problems. Surprisingly, throwing curves seems to be harder on the shoulder than the elbow which is not what I'd expect given how much my elbow would ache after throwing a lot of curves in BP. It is a no-brainer as you note that a 65 mph curve ball is going to put less stress on the arm than an 80 mph fastball. I doubt that Vicente Padilla's curve puts much stress on his arm.
Just because the levels of stress are less for a curve than a fastball doesn't mean that it is good for young kids to be throwing them. There is some risk. Barry Zito took that risk and it didn't result in injury so who knows?
Little Johnny throwing 80 mph fastballs and a changeup every third pitch is at a bit less risk than little Tommy throwing 80 mph fastballs and a curve every third pitch. Little Freddy throwing mostly curves and a fastball every third pitch is putting his arm at risk of injury and at risk of staying at 70 mph.
BTW, we started mine on the curve at 13yo and simply limited the number he was allowed to throw.
I don't think there is any one "real" cause of elbow problems other than possibly a weaker than normal UCL or other supporting structure.
Velocity obviously contributes, but the body also adjusts to the velocity to some degree. I believe that things that cause higher stresses such as being too early or too late with external rotation can contribute. I think sliders are hard on the arm and I think that power curves such as Frankie Rodriguez throws are hard on the arm.
I don't think scap loading is a major contributor other than to the degree it increases velocity.
Overuse can be a significant factor if it fatigues the muscles that supplement the UCL.
There is no one answer. Every pitcher is different and you have to take it on a case by case basis and do your best. Sometimes the things that help you pitch better can hurt your arm. Risk/reward.
Amazing how people will jump on a single study. There have been studies that showed that curve balls put additional and different stresses on the elbow. There is also empirical data showing that kids who throw curve balls tend to have more shoulder and elbow problems. Surprisingly, throwing curves seems to be harder on the shoulder than the elbow which is not what I'd expect given how much my elbow would ache after throwing a lot of curves in BP. It is a no-brainer as you note that a 65 mph curve ball is going to put less stress on the arm than an 80 mph fastball. I doubt that Vicente Padilla's curve puts much stress on his arm.
Just because the levels of stress are less for a curve than a fastball doesn't mean that it is good for young kids to be throwing them. There is some risk. Barry Zito took that risk and it didn't result in injury so who knows?
Little Johnny throwing 80 mph fastballs and a changeup every third pitch is at a bit less risk than little Tommy throwing 80 mph fastballs and a curve every third pitch. Little Freddy throwing mostly curves and a fastball every third pitch is putting his arm at risk of injury and at risk of staying at 70 mph.
BTW, we started mine on the curve at 13yo and simply limited the number he was allowed to throw.
I don't think there is any one "real" cause of elbow problems other than possibly a weaker than normal UCL or other supporting structure.
Velocity obviously contributes, but the body also adjusts to the velocity to some degree. I believe that things that cause higher stresses such as being too early or too late with external rotation can contribute. I think sliders are hard on the arm and I think that power curves such as Frankie Rodriguez throws are hard on the arm.
I don't think scap loading is a major contributor other than to the degree it increases velocity.
Overuse can be a significant factor if it fatigues the muscles that supplement the UCL.
There is no one answer. Every pitcher is different and you have to take it on a case by case basis and do your best. Sometimes the things that help you pitch better can hurt your arm. Risk/reward.
CADad,
You couldn't have said it better, so I won't rephrase any of it.
I wanted to talk about something you implicated - that perhaps UNDERuse is the issue. As you said, the body adjusts to creating the velocity over time. What happens, IMO, is that some pitchers develop very good velocity numbers through hard work / natural growth, then get to an elite level and get babied. As a result, they lose the training effect of what they did that got them there, and that might lead to injury!
Just a theory, but we see it all the time in the exercise science world. The worst rehabilitation programs involve chronic rest periods - the best ones involve working the surrounding musculature as soon as possible!
You couldn't have said it better, so I won't rephrase any of it.
I wanted to talk about something you implicated - that perhaps UNDERuse is the issue. As you said, the body adjusts to creating the velocity over time. What happens, IMO, is that some pitchers develop very good velocity numbers through hard work / natural growth, then get to an elite level and get babied. As a result, they lose the training effect of what they did that got them there, and that might lead to injury!
Just a theory, but we see it all the time in the exercise science world. The worst rehabilitation programs involve chronic rest periods - the best ones involve working the surrounding musculature as soon as possible!
CADad,
I agree with you on several of your points- there really may not be one real answer. Quite possibly it is different in each arm and many things may contribute to it. If it were easy to figure out and fix there wouldn't be elbow problems of the magnitude we see in baseball.
As for the studies showing kids who throw curves tend to have more elbow and shoulder issues, that is like the studies which show eating salad makes you live ten years longer. Of course everyone knows that people who eat salad also live healthy lifestyles in a lot of other aspects of their lives that are probably the real factors for their longevity. Lets be honest here- how many HS age pitchers (age 14-18) do you know, who are good, who don't throw a breaking ball? I know of none. Now I do know other HS age pitchers who don't throw curveballs, but they aren't good and don't pitch much anyway. What I am saying is that relationship of curveballs and injury in pitchers is somewhat ridiculous and perhaps impossible to make a conclusion. More data is needed. Like I said in my last post, Kid A throws more curveballs, throws them harder, and throws more fastballs harder than Kid B and yet it is Kid B with the elbow issues not Kid A. This tells me, at least in this case that curveballs alone is not the main factor of the elbow pain. It also leads me to believe that velocity is not the main factor either. Neither is pitch amount or type, or velocity on a certain type of pitch a factor in this case.
Now of course I have been studying this for some time because I want to find the root of the problem and perhaps help kids reduce injury factors that may haunt them later on. My biggest thing I look at is arm timing because I have noted over the last few years that there is a stark similarity found in most kids having elbow problems. Those kids all show signs of having a late timing issue caused by leading too high with the elbow into the power position. I certainly can't prove that at this time, perhaps it may even lead me to find a cause unknown to me at this time as being the real cause.
One thing I do know is that under acceleration, a great amount of stress is placed upon the arm. For every arm there is a limit to which if exceeded will break down and cause injury. In my work we build high performance engines that go in exotic cars. Different engines have different limits. This can be analogous to pitchers- every pitcher has his own limit- some greater and some lesser. Some engines are just blessed with the right bore to stroke ratio and thus rev qucker and higher than others under less stress. But, all engines can be built to better standards to increase its performance and all these standards operate on the same basic principles. They also break down on the same principles also.
If 100 pitchers elbows have breakdowns with their elbows, more than likely most if not all will have at least one main contributing factor leading to that breakdown. So, the key is finding that one main contributing factor and either reduce it or eliminate it completely. Of course this may not solve all elbow issues, but it may drastically reduce the numbers.
I agree with you on several of your points- there really may not be one real answer. Quite possibly it is different in each arm and many things may contribute to it. If it were easy to figure out and fix there wouldn't be elbow problems of the magnitude we see in baseball.
As for the studies showing kids who throw curves tend to have more elbow and shoulder issues, that is like the studies which show eating salad makes you live ten years longer. Of course everyone knows that people who eat salad also live healthy lifestyles in a lot of other aspects of their lives that are probably the real factors for their longevity. Lets be honest here- how many HS age pitchers (age 14-18) do you know, who are good, who don't throw a breaking ball? I know of none. Now I do know other HS age pitchers who don't throw curveballs, but they aren't good and don't pitch much anyway. What I am saying is that relationship of curveballs and injury in pitchers is somewhat ridiculous and perhaps impossible to make a conclusion. More data is needed. Like I said in my last post, Kid A throws more curveballs, throws them harder, and throws more fastballs harder than Kid B and yet it is Kid B with the elbow issues not Kid A. This tells me, at least in this case that curveballs alone is not the main factor of the elbow pain. It also leads me to believe that velocity is not the main factor either. Neither is pitch amount or type, or velocity on a certain type of pitch a factor in this case.
Now of course I have been studying this for some time because I want to find the root of the problem and perhaps help kids reduce injury factors that may haunt them later on. My biggest thing I look at is arm timing because I have noted over the last few years that there is a stark similarity found in most kids having elbow problems. Those kids all show signs of having a late timing issue caused by leading too high with the elbow into the power position. I certainly can't prove that at this time, perhaps it may even lead me to find a cause unknown to me at this time as being the real cause.
One thing I do know is that under acceleration, a great amount of stress is placed upon the arm. For every arm there is a limit to which if exceeded will break down and cause injury. In my work we build high performance engines that go in exotic cars. Different engines have different limits. This can be analogous to pitchers- every pitcher has his own limit- some greater and some lesser. Some engines are just blessed with the right bore to stroke ratio and thus rev qucker and higher than others under less stress. But, all engines can be built to better standards to increase its performance and all these standards operate on the same basic principles. They also break down on the same principles also.
If 100 pitchers elbows have breakdowns with their elbows, more than likely most if not all will have at least one main contributing factor leading to that breakdown. So, the key is finding that one main contributing factor and either reduce it or eliminate it completely. Of course this may not solve all elbow issues, but it may drastically reduce the numbers.
A lot of things heal with scar tissue or unstructured tissue if you let them. Generally some level of activity is required to keep scar tissue or poor quality tissue from forming. Once again recovery periods vary from person to person. You also have to be careful about the buildup of inflammation with some people. Inflammation can last way longer than people realize and lead to sensitizing nerves and other tissues.
I do believe there may be some advantage to a pitcher taking the winter off after the rigors of a MLB season. A lot of damage is done to tendons and ligaments and they take a long time to heal. Ideally, some limited activity can be done that helps align the tissues without doing further damage. How much? Who knows? I think the key in those cases is to allow time for healing then to work back into rebuilding the arm pretty gradually.
I do believe there may be some advantage to a pitcher taking the winter off after the rigors of a MLB season. A lot of damage is done to tendons and ligaments and they take a long time to heal. Ideally, some limited activity can be done that helps align the tissues without doing further damage. How much? Who knows? I think the key in those cases is to allow time for healing then to work back into rebuilding the arm pretty gradually.
GBM,
And what if that one major factor also tends to be a significant contributor to developing higher velocity?
And what if that one major factor also tends to be a significant contributor to developing higher velocity?
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
GBM,
And what if that one major factor also tends to be a significant contributor to developing higher velocity?
It would be interesting. But, why is it that some pitchers throw upper 90's for years and years with no problems and others can't do it for one season without problems?
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
It would be interesting. But, why is it that some pitchers throw upper 90's for years and years with no problems and others can't do it for one season without problems?
1) What pitchers might that be? 2) It's called genetics.
quote:Originally posted by BOF:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
It would be interesting. But, why is it that some pitchers throw upper 90's for years and years with no problems and others can't do it for one season without problems?
1) What pitchers might that be? 2) It's called genetics.
Good point. There are not too many professional pitchers out there that have not, in one time in their careers had an issue. That is the risk and the reward.
Genetics and physiological and pathological make up of the pitcher has a lot to do with it. It doesn't matter if you are a hard or soft tosser, taller or smaller, long legged or short legged, long arm or shorter arm, thin or stocky, perfect mechanics or have an W or an M, high slot or lower slot, late or early delivery, etc. What is inherent to that pitcher, will most likely be a determinating factor with future injuries. Anything that is repetitive in motion causes problems, there is no way of beating around the bush. Sure you can build a better engine so it can't break down, but in building that engine, someone may have made a mistake, one part may be defective, thus why that engine breaks down and the others keep going (you get my point I hope).
Of course through studies, we can learn to minimize the risks, which might include less time on the mound, sufficient rest between outings, less curveballs thrown, better conditioning, pin point mechanics at all times, methods of studying a pitcher on film, just to name a few, and I doubt whether anyone will ever come up with the exact "why" things happen. IMO, it's all mostly subjective. Most of the time it just "happens". And after it happens no one stops to think of "why" it happened, they just fix it up to make it better. Refining mechanics is the easy part and may at some times be the easy way to get around the problem, until later when all H*ll breaks loose.
What bothers me greatly, as a parent of a pitcher, is when we draw mechanical conclusions as to why pain is occuring without knowing exactly what really might be causing the pain, we mostly blame it on mechanics.
Elbow problems occur for many different reasons, many times because there could be an undetected issue in the shoulder, therefore the elbow compensates for what the shoulder cannot, and vice versa. This could be why Strasburg's elbow gave out, he had been experiencing shoulder issues beforehand, most likely may have been compensating for years, it may or may not have had anything to do with his mechanics.
You all know my son has pretty good mechanics, throws hard, was kept off the mound a lot more than others when young, didn't rely on the CB, has the tall lanky frame. Yet when he continually broke down from shoulder pain (diagnosed with tendinitous/bursitus) with nothing to be found through a scope, an MRI or mechanic refining. They blamed it on a loose capsule, they blamed it on higher velocity, they blamed it on throwing too many pitches in a game. The problem was genetic in nature. Now he seems to have developed another issue that may also be genetic in nature, and because he pitches. It probably wouldn't bother you or me or the ordinary joe. Did this problem occur because of his past issues with the shoulder and the elbow compensated, maybe, maybe he just has gotten to a point in time at 25 when things begin to breakdown (even in the best shape of his life).
So IMO, the whole object is to minimize the dangers studied (mentioned above), so that a pitcher can get to a point where the breakdown will not impact them to have to leave the game.
When a young pitcher experiences pain (any discomfort can be the signal to the future pain, which signals perhaps a problem within the body), stop and get a qualified opinion, the best you can to determine what exactly is causing the issue, not just, because of studies, try to fix it by making mechanical adjustments. I can give yu all scenerios of pitchers that come in all shapes and sizes, throw hard, don't throw hard, god and bad mechanics (what we consider) and you would be surprised that not sometimes the one you least expect has an elbow tear, or tear in shoulder. Of course, it's hard to tell because you are seeing them at one point in their lives and you have no idea what came before that, so always remember that minimizing all risks for youth pitchers, is most important.
quote:“The image quality produced by sonography has dramatically improved to the point that the wear and tear that occurs in a pitcher’s arm is now visible on an ultrasound well before he experiences symptoms,” says Dr. Levon N. Nazarian, the lead author of the study. “Our results showed that when the pitching arms of these professional baseball players were stressed, the anterior band of the UCL was thicker, was more likely to have micro-tears and calcifications, and had a greater laxity or looseness in the joint when pressure was applied.” The extent of ligament degeneration strongly correlated with years in professional baseball.
These were all "healthy" pitchers. Their ligaments had gotten thicker in response to the loads on the ligament, but the quality of the tissue was degraded.
Do we have doctors here?
We have people who can read a scientific study and understand the results and the implications.
There are also people who are concerned with their own pitchers arm health so therefore they do research to understand what can and can't happen, can't take that away from anyone.
TR, why don't you try to add some meaningful info in a discussion instead of interjecting negativity?
TR, why don't you try to add some meaningful info in a discussion instead of interjecting negativity?
TPM
When non medical people give "info" that may or may not be right I feel that should be corrected
It is not negative it is intelligent---are you a medical expert just because of your son?
I know I am smart enough not to give medical advice
Research is great but it means nothing if non medicval people such as yourself are dishing out the the info
And who the h e l l are you to lecture me !!!!
When non medical people give "info" that may or may not be right I feel that should be corrected
It is not negative it is intelligent---are you a medical expert just because of your son?
I know I am smart enough not to give medical advice
Research is great but it means nothing if non medicval people such as yourself are dishing out the the info
And who the h e l l are you to lecture me !!!!
If that is what you meant than why not state it that way. Yes your one liners are negative, often.
Who gave medical advice?
You want everyone to follow what you think is right but you can't do that yourself, make yourself clear.
Oh I forgot you don't have to do that you are the great and powerful TR.
Who gave medical advice?
You want everyone to follow what you think is right but you can't do that yourself, make yourself clear.
Oh I forgot you don't have to do that you are the great and powerful TR.
TPM
AS I said before you are not in any position to lecture me or anyone else on this site.
Nor do I need you lecturing me because I certainly KNOW that you are not qualified to do so.
Have a nice nite !1!
AS I said before you are not in any position to lecture me or anyone else on this site.
Nor do I need you lecturing me because I certainly KNOW that you are not qualified to do so.
Have a nice nite !1!
I will !1!
quote:There are also people who are concerned with their own pitchers arm health so therefore they do research to understand what can and can't happen, can't take that away from anyone.
TPM: I agree with your statement. I just don't understand why organized baseball isn't concerned enough to conduct meaningful studies? Perhaps because Dr. Andrews and other Ortho's have become so good at putting "Humpty" back together again that they don't have to care.
Tell that to your son after his UCL replacement surgery and probable release if he's not a high draft prospect.
I understand your comments regarding the part genetics may play. Surely it's possible that some players get hurt who seeming have done everything right. While others appear to do everything wrong and stay healthy. But, I don't really believe that genetics alone is the reason, anymore than I think it's just a given in the Sport that you will blow out your elbow or shoulder while pitching.
Football Quarterbacks throw thousands of balls in their careers. Some have had elbow issues but we don't read about them lining up at Dr. Andrews. Track and Field javelin athletes who have Olympic aspirations, throw their javelin thousands of repetitions. Karate Masters, in their lifetimes, perform tens of thousand of full speed/extension punches. Baseball position players make tens of thousands of total effort throws in their training and playing careers. All these movements put tremendous stress on the elbow joint and shoulder. Why aren't they blowing out their elbows and or shoulders at alarmingly increasing rates as are baseball pitchers?
Two things they do are different than what pitchers do while throwing; their motions always end in pronation (protects the elbow), and they don't move (throw) across their bodies after having stopped forward movement (the stride in pitching).
That alone tells me there COULD BE a mechanical aspect of pitching that when performed in certain ways, may protect the arm and conversely done incorrectly could injure it.
Furthermore, I wonder, out loud at times, if there isn't a better way pitchers should be conditioning the bones, ligaments and muscles of their arms and shoulders to withstand the stresses? Some recovery time at Season end makes sense but how did REST become the favored way to condition in hopes of preventing injury (pitch counts, five-man rotations, etc)?
When I was in the Far East I had chances to train with and observe both Korean (Hapkido) and Thai (Muy Thai) Master stylists condition their bodies. Trust me when I say the that human bone density, the attached ligaments, connective tissues and joints MOST certainly can be conditioned to withstand impact and stresses that most people could not even begin to imagine.
I would still suspect that the number one cause of elbow failure is due to bad mechanics. Now certainly it can be debated on which aspect of mechanics are at fault but scientific research is now showing us that forces are being applied to the elbow at levels way above the safe zone in some pitchers. I suspect the process of attainment of velocity is slightly different from pitcher to pitcher. All arms are not perfectly timed in a perfect kinematic sequence and thus places varrying degrees of un-needed stress on different parts of the arm. Speaking of efficiency, some pitchers labor extensively to throw while others do it effortlessly. Some pitchers mechanics are just a train wreck waiting to happen while others are just a peaceful ride through the countryside.
One thing I always look for is just how much the elbow is moving and jerking around in it's delivery. These inefficiencies put added strain on the arm and prevent the arm from being more smooth and fluid. When i watch strasburg pitch he looks basically good but still not as smooth as he could be. I believe that those inefficiencies coupled with his velocity put him in the train wreck category. As velocity increases the margin for error shrinks. If a pitcher isn't smooth and effortless in his delivery, he will fatigue quicker, and will breakdown faster and thus place himself in the danger zone.
Personally, I feel that the Nationals should have made Strasburg a closer, perhaps they will in the future. Not many like the closer role but when a person throws with that velocity and doesn't have the greatest mechanics I think it is smarter to put them in more limited roles.
One thing I always look for is just how much the elbow is moving and jerking around in it's delivery. These inefficiencies put added strain on the arm and prevent the arm from being more smooth and fluid. When i watch strasburg pitch he looks basically good but still not as smooth as he could be. I believe that those inefficiencies coupled with his velocity put him in the train wreck category. As velocity increases the margin for error shrinks. If a pitcher isn't smooth and effortless in his delivery, he will fatigue quicker, and will breakdown faster and thus place himself in the danger zone.
Personally, I feel that the Nationals should have made Strasburg a closer, perhaps they will in the future. Not many like the closer role but when a person throws with that velocity and doesn't have the greatest mechanics I think it is smarter to put them in more limited roles.
quote:Two things they do are different than what pitchers do while throwing; their motions always end in pronation (protects the elbow), and they don't move (throw) across their bodies after having stopped forward movement (the stride in pitching).
Prime9
Don't underestimate the additional forces or acceleration created in throwing from a mound. The movements a pitcher makes after the throw is partly a deceleration response to the added acceleration caused by the mound.
Additionally a pitcher's motion ends in pronation as well. It's just that with some pitches like the CB the pronation takes place through a larger range- say 180 degrees rather than 90 with the FB. Add to this that the additional 90 degrees of pronation for the CB takes place in the same amount of time or over the same arm path distance as a fastball and you can see why some believe this creates potential for injury. There aren't too many CB's and sliders being thrown by position players.
Regarding differences between throwing a baseball and football ASMI has an explanation here
http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/re...seballvsfootball.htm
Throwing 90+ mph hurts your arm after a while. Who could have guessed?
Next, we can investigate why they have crashes at NASCAR races.
Next, we can investigate why they have crashes at NASCAR races.
Prime9,
The stresses due to throwing a baseball 90+ are higher than those seen on a regular basis in martial arts. Generally speaking position players don't throw anywhere near as hard as pitchers and yes the stresses are slightly less at a given speed because they aren't throwing off the mound. Position players, especially catchers, still tear their UCLs. It just doesn't happen as often as with pitchers.
The stresses due to throwing a baseball 90+ are higher than those seen on a regular basis in martial arts. Generally speaking position players don't throw anywhere near as hard as pitchers and yes the stresses are slightly less at a given speed because they aren't throwing off the mound. Position players, especially catchers, still tear their UCLs. It just doesn't happen as often as with pitchers.
Interesting article. I noted that the shoulders open earlier when throwing a football because of the weight. I wonder if throwing with a heavier baseball strengthens the arm thereby allowing the shoulders to rotate later with a regular weight ball or if it reinforces the habit of opening the shoulders earlier?
quote:Interesting article. I noted that the shoulders open earlier when throwing a football because of the weight. I wonder if throwing with a heavier baseball strengthens the arm thereby allowing the shoulders to rotate later with a regular weight ball or if it reinforces the habit of opening the shoulders earlier?
Looks like you've got yourself the basis for a research project
In my experience core strength and timing have a bigger impact on late shoulder rotation than arm strength. The weigthed ball protocols I'm most familiar with use overload/underload training to strengthen the arm and then teach it to move faster.
My guess is that it would vary from person to person and you wouldn't get a statistically significant conclusion.
I don't think weighted balls strengthen the arm all that much if at all, JMO. I think they force the core, timing, etc. to come into play to try to get the speed back up to near where it is with the regular ball. Some people think it is just the added intensity required to throw the weighted ball rather than any strengthening.
There are studies that show different results in what happens when going from heavy to light, heavy to regular, etc. It is hard to quantify I believe in part because different things work for different people and studies generally only report things smeared over a group to try to show statistical significance.
I don't think weighted balls strengthen the arm all that much if at all, JMO. I think they force the core, timing, etc. to come into play to try to get the speed back up to near where it is with the regular ball. Some people think it is just the added intensity required to throw the weighted ball rather than any strengthening.
There are studies that show different results in what happens when going from heavy to light, heavy to regular, etc. It is hard to quantify I believe in part because different things work for different people and studies generally only report things smeared over a group to try to show statistical significance.
No one mentions any correlation between a pitchers lower body strength and how much that may help to avoid shoulder or elbow injury.
I am a firm beleiver that the power comes from the core and lower body, not the arm, that's just there for the ride. The strength in the lower body is what helps the pitcher to fight fatigue, the stronger the lower half the better. I beleive that injuries occur more from fatigue and overuse than anything else. Most pitchers don't even realize when they get tired, that's why it's important to have a coach that recognizes the changes in the mechanics of each individual pitcher he works with (or the parent). Instead of the entire body working now the shoulder and arm are carrying most of the workload.
I am wondering if that is the reason why so many young pitchers need TJS, when the time comes that the workload increases at 16+ (pitches and innings) it may be too late. That's also why it is important to limit time in regards to pitch counts and innings, often times no one, including the pitcher, realizes he is fatigued.
That's not to say a ML pitcher won't break down either, an expected 170-200+ innings per season is a HUGE workload season after season for any shoulder or arm, pitchers are tired near end of season, but they are expected to keep going and I will bet the ones who don't experience an problems spend more time on their lower half and core than others. That's why you will see a breakdown in mechanics toward the end for many pitchers, the body is just tired. So it is for catchers as well, who do require shoulder and elboe surgery.
Maybe it's not as all that difficult to figure out, maybe some are not concentrating on the right things to avoid injury.
I am a firm beleiver that the power comes from the core and lower body, not the arm, that's just there for the ride. The strength in the lower body is what helps the pitcher to fight fatigue, the stronger the lower half the better. I beleive that injuries occur more from fatigue and overuse than anything else. Most pitchers don't even realize when they get tired, that's why it's important to have a coach that recognizes the changes in the mechanics of each individual pitcher he works with (or the parent). Instead of the entire body working now the shoulder and arm are carrying most of the workload.
I am wondering if that is the reason why so many young pitchers need TJS, when the time comes that the workload increases at 16+ (pitches and innings) it may be too late. That's also why it is important to limit time in regards to pitch counts and innings, often times no one, including the pitcher, realizes he is fatigued.
That's not to say a ML pitcher won't break down either, an expected 170-200+ innings per season is a HUGE workload season after season for any shoulder or arm, pitchers are tired near end of season, but they are expected to keep going and I will bet the ones who don't experience an problems spend more time on their lower half and core than others. That's why you will see a breakdown in mechanics toward the end for many pitchers, the body is just tired. So it is for catchers as well, who do require shoulder and elboe surgery.
Maybe it's not as all that difficult to figure out, maybe some are not concentrating on the right things to avoid injury.
Ironically MLBTV is currently airing a show on pitchers and the changes that have taken place---interestingly they claim that since the innings have reduced for pitchers the number of pitches per out has risen drastically
That makes sense. I can see a pitcher either being willing to waste pitches knowing he isn't going as many innings or throwing harder and having a bit less control.
I doubt if anyone is getting anywhere close to Nolan Ryan type pitch counts anymore even so.
I doubt if anyone is getting anywhere close to Nolan Ryan type pitch counts anymore even so.
TPM- agree with everything you said especially the part about the end of season fatigue. Check into Mark Prior's workload as a 22 yo at the end of 2003 season- the year the Cubs went to the NLCS. IMO the funky W stuff takes a back seat to the workload he was subjected to.
Just how much velocity is generated by the rest of the body? I do know that my son standing straight up, facing forward, without turning his legs or back can throw the ball at about 70-80% of his maximum velocity when he pitches- thats just his arm, nothing else.
quote:Originally posted by mdbaseballdad:
TPM- agree with everything you said especially the part about the end of season fatigue. Check into Mark Prior's workload as a 22 yo at the end of 2003 season- the year the Cubs went to the NLCS. IMO the funky W stuff takes a back seat to the workload he was subjected to.
He was subjected to the a huge workload in college, I do beleive that is where it all began, not the mechanics.
A starting pitchers job is to get in as many innings as he can within the count he knows he's going to be cut off from. My son knows his cutoff so he has to be as efficient as he can, and not waste pitches. What kills these guys in milb is the unusaul tight zone some umpires like to make, and that usually results in more walks (for both sides), which results in more pitches thrown, shorter outings. As one moves up, the hitters also become more patient and experienced, which results in more pitches thrown. Even the more talented young ML pitcher has a disadvantage over the more experienced (less talented) hitter, that's just how it is until they learn.
Notice how many guys go the distance early in the season and not towards the end, most are just toasted. The season is way too long for pitchers, and for them to remain healthy. JMO.
The problem starts in the youth leagues and thru HS---nobody works on making pitchers arms stronger and getting the players in shape.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Just how much velocity is generated by the rest of the body? I do know that my son standing straight up, facing forward, without turning his legs or back can throw the ball at about 70-80% of his maximum velocity when he pitches- thats just his arm, nothing else.
If my son and yours stood next to each other and just threw the ball, your son would probably generate more % power from his arm than mine, and there is an 10-11 year old difference (though mine may be able to throw farther). Who the heck does that anyway and why, how could you tell he was 70-80% less his velo? Bad for the arm, hope you do not do that often.
From what you post here, it appears that you have trained your son's arm to do most of the work, without training the important parts of the body (lower torso and upper legs) that needs to generate the power of the hips moving forward and pulling the shoulders forward which is where the power comes from for the arm (along for the ride).
I am sure that you have taught your son proper mechanics, but if you began your son on an intensive core and lower body conditioning program (his age is perfect) rather than spend more time on the mound developing velo, you wouldn't have to work him so hard on throwing harder, it would come.
Although we agree on many points, my biggest contention is that you are more into "training" the arm to throw harder and do all of the work, I don't believe that to be correct. JMO.
TR brings up a point, I would like to change it a bit, too much emphasis and work done to improve velocity without the proper conditioning of the correct places for higher velocity. Ever wonder why the first thing a college pitcher or pro pitcher begins work on is his core and lower torso, hours, one should get credits for the time spent.
Of course the harder you work, the more gains you might see in velocity. Of course there are other things that have to come into the equation to make it all work but the arm, IMO is not where the velo should originate from.As I said perhaps this is why so many young pitchers have shoulder and arm injuries, they just don't have the necessary power where needed, that's why people of very young pitchers should not worry about the velo (which seems like most do these days) until teh body becomes more developed.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Just how much velocity is generated by the rest of the body? I do know that my son standing straight up, facing forward, without turning his legs or back can throw the ball at about 70-80% of his maximum velocity when he pitches- thats just his arm, nothing else.
If my son and yours stood next to each other and just threw the ball, your son would probably generate more % power from his arm than mine, and there is an 10-11 year old difference (though mine may be able to throw farther). Who the heck does that anyway and why, how could you tell he was 70-80% less his velo? Bad for the arm, hope you do not do that often.
From what you post here, it appears that you have trained your son's arm to do most of the work, without training the important parts of the body (lower torso and upper legs) that needs to generate the power of the hips moving forward and pulling the shoulders forward which is where the power comes from for the arm (along for the ride).
I am sure that you have taught your son proper mechanics, but if you began your son on an intensive core and lower body conditioning program (his age is perfect) rather than spend more time on the mound developing velo, you wouldn't have to work him so hard on throwing harder, it would come.
Although we agree on many points, my biggest contention is that you are more into "training" the arm to throw harder and do all of the work, I don't believe that to be correct. JMO.
TR brings up a point, I would like to change it a bit, too much emphasis and work done to improve velocity without the proper conditioning of the correct places for higher velocity. Ever wonder why the first thing a college pitcher or pro pitcher begins work on is his core and lower torso, hours, one should get credits for the time spent.
As I said perhaps this is why so many young pitchers have shoulder and arm injuries, they just don't have the necessary power where needed, that's why people of very young pitchers should not worry about the velo (which seems like most do these days) until teh body becomes more developed.
My son trains his whole body- does all types of workouts to strengthen his whole body not just the arm. He is quite bulky already- 180 lbs and 5'10". His legs are bigger around than mine, top to bottom.
Anyways, I was just wondering what the actual percentage of velocity is- what comes primarily from the arm and what comed from the body. I don't buy into the arm just being along for the ride- it does contribute to velocity. How much? That is what I was wondering. I do know that it takes an extremely solid and strong core to be effective and injury free.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Anyways, I was just wondering what the actual percentage of velocity is- what comes primarily from the arm and what comed from the body. I don't buy into the arm just being along for the ride- it does contribute to velocity. How much? That is what I was wondering. I do know that it takes an extremely solid and strong core to be effective and injury free.
With all your research you have done, why would you ask that question? Wouldn't you know the answer?
Perhaps if there is none, it's not important, or did you just need to fill us in on how hard he throws.
Why would one have their son stand on the mound (as you described) and throw without using the entire body to see how hard one throws?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Anyways, I was just wondering what the actual percentage of velocity is- what comes primarily from the arm and what comed from the body. I don't buy into the arm just being along for the ride- it does contribute to velocity. How much? That is what I was wondering. I do know that it takes an extremely solid and strong core to be effective and injury free.
With all your research you have done, why would you ask that question? Wouldn't you know the answer?
Perhaps if there is none, it's not important, or did you just need to fill us in on how hard he throws.
Why would one have their son stand on the mound (as you described) and throw without using the entire body to see how hard one throws?
I want to get along with you but sometimes it is just really hard not to. I never said he threw off the mound that fast, nor do we even think of such ridiculous things. When he warms up to throw he stands facing forward and throws to get warmed up. He works on the flick of the wrist and the arm motion and then goes into throwing naturally using the whole body.
I know that a pitcher uses arm strength for a percentage of velocity but was just wondering how much.
If I wanted to brag on sons velocity I would have said- "Son throws _mph, is that good for his age?"
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Personally, I feel that the Nationals should have made Strasburg a closer, perhaps they will in the future. Not many like the closer role but when a person throws with that velocity and doesn't have the greatest mechanics I think it is smarter to put them in more limited roles.
Yea...I'm sure there are TONS of pitchers who would NOT like to throw with those lousy $15 million dollar mechanics.
