Stretch or Windup?

To me it is what works for the individual.

I agree. Whatever works.

As a reliever DK was pitching from the stretch but went back to the windup and felt he did much better.

There’s no doubt that the fewer movements a pitcher makes, the fewer mistakes he can make. That’s why it works so well for new pitchers. But once a pitcher has been pitching for some time and has developed his own “style”, it becomes much more problematic and more of a tossup whether they’ll be able to perform well from the stretch.

 

I’ve always kept track of how pitchers do with runners on or not on(stretch or not), and I can say with a fair degree of certainty, that pitchers in general perform better from the windup. How much of that is because they’re distracted with runners on and how much is because they just don’t pitch as well from the stretch, I wouldn’t want to guess. But there certainly is a noticeable difference in most pitchers.

 

A lot of coaches do this with their bull pen, the thinking is in many cases these boy's will be taking the mound with runners on.

I watched Darvish last night only from the stretch. 

One of the problems with this subject is a complete misunderstanding about the number of pitches thrown with no runners on as opposed to runners on, which normally equates to throwing from the stretch. Since 2007, for our HS team I’ve scored 14,800 at bats with 52,250 pitches. Of them, 7,900 with 27,830 pitches have been with runners on. That would lead even a dullard to understand that more pitches are thrown from the stretch than not, but how often do pitchers warm up or throw pens from the stretch?

Interesting stat...Stats. So if your WHIP is below 1.0 you throw from the windup and over the stretch? 

Originally Posted by BOF:

Interesting stat...Stats. So if your WHIP is below 1.0 you throw from the windup and over the stretch? 

 

You lost me with that question. I don’t know how you could compute a WHIP based on whether or not runners were on. I can see a W+H/Batters, but not W+H/Innings Pitched.

Mechanically speaking there generally is no difference from the point of leg lift in either one.  Well - there shouldn't be at least.

 

When the pitcher combines a stretch with a shorter stride, or a slide step you see changes in velocity and control. It's not because of what he did before leg lift - it's because of what he did after.

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Rob T:

Mechanically speaking there generally is no difference from the point of leg lift in either one.  Well - there shouldn't be at least.

 

When the pitcher combines a stretch with a shorter stride, or a slide step you see changes in velocity and control. It's not because of what he did before leg lift - it's because of what he did after.

 

Its because some mechanical change has been made that’s affect timing, and it could be anytime from the very 1^st movement to release.

Speaking of the wind up vs the stretch.....I have always found it comical when kids come into the game in relief, with runners on, and start throwing from the wind up.  Really?????

Stats regarding the WHIP I was being facetious.

 

In theory it should not matter how you get to this point.

 

However if this was the case no one would throw from the windup. There must be a reason? What is it?

 

 

Originally Posted by BOF:

In theory it should not matter how you get to this point.

 

True, if all things were equal, it shouldn’t make any difference. Trouble is, all things aren’t equal.

 

However if this was the case no one would throw from the windup. There must be a reason? What is it?

 

I have a very good friend who began playing pro ball in 1939, and ended up as the pitching coach for the LA Dodgers from 1968 until he retired in 1980. The way he describes it is, a pitcher is storing energy in the windup that can’t be stored in the stretch.

I think that may be the issue.... Obviously there is no way to "store" the energy.

 

Today's technology allows us to see that there is no mechanical advantage to the windup.  Some pitchers are more comfortable from that motion, or mechanically do things differently which impacts velocity.

 

One of my son's pitching coaches pitched in the majors for a few years.  He said that one of the things the pitching coaches worked most with him on was trying to get his velocity from the stretch to be the same as his velocity from the windup.  In his case, he took a shorter stride, didn't get his hips fully engaged, and changed his arm path in the stretch.  Once those issues were corrected his stretch velocity was within 1 MPH of his windup velocity.

 

When he first started working with my son he clocked his velocity and didn't see a difference between the motions, so he had him just work from the stretch.  When I asked him why he said, "Too many moving parts, not enough benefit".

 

 

Because that's where you can show off your "personal" style..ie: high leg kick, twist to second, look back..breathe through your eye lids.........you know, the "chicks dig it" moves.....LOL

Originally Posted by Rob T:

Today's technology allows us to see that there is no mechanical advantage to the windup.  Some pitchers are more comfortable from that motion, or mechanically do things differently which impacts velocity.

 

One of my son's pitching coaches pitched in the majors for a few years.  He said that one of the things the pitching coaches worked most with him on was trying to get his velocity from the stretch to be the same as his velocity from the windup.  In his case, he took a shorter stride, didn't get his hips fully engaged, and changed his arm path in the stretch.  Once those issues were corrected his stretch velocity was within 1 MPH of his windup velocity.

 

When he first started working with my son he clocked his velocity and didn't see a difference between the motions, so he had him just work from the stretch.  When I asked him why he said, "Too many moving parts, not enough benefit".

 

I guess I’ll forever be that square peg, because I don’t worry one whit about velocity, but I do look at performance.

 

But I do wonder how many people actually compare performance with runners on as opposed to no runners on.

Runners on is a stat, no runners on is not. So just because its listed in the pitchers split stats, I think it has importance.

 

I understand that you do not give one whit about velocity, but reality is, that its important to want to get as much velocity as one can from their FB because it affects all the other pitches that they throw.  Although it doesn't mean that a pitcher that throws harder than another is better, its just the way it is, velocity at 85 or at 95 has its significance to each individual pitcher.

 

Again I think that it depends on the pitcher and what he feels comfortable with. I think that repeating the same mechanics over and over is so important so I really think that may be the thinking for sticking with one delivery over another.  That doesn't mean that the pitcher will always pitch from that delivery, but I can see why the coach may want him to stay with the stretch, for now. 

JMO

 

 

Like most things pitching related, it is all about "feel", some are more comfortable from the wind up, while others prefer pitching from the stretch.  All things being equal - whether you are coming out of leg lift from the stretch, or wind up, there really is very negligible, to no real advantage to the actual wind up, other than as stated before maybe some "style" points.  If there are mechanical differences, then you will see a difference.

 

With young pitchers, I prefer to have them only from the stretch.  Jr. has never pitched from the wind up, and early on he really thought he was "weird" because everyone had this big ole wind up with no runners on base, and he wasn't allowed to.  Now he doesn't give it a second thought.  Being a LHP, for him there is really never any reason to throw from the wind up. 

 

My thoughts on pitching has always been, less equals more, the more movements you have, the more opportunity to get out of sequence, and mechanics break down.  Less moving parts equals - more repeatable mechanics, without loss in velocity, in fact if you can repeatably sequence easier with less moving parts, then you will have more velocity.  Look at Fernando Rodney - hardly even has any leg kick, yet gets it up there in the mid to upper 90's.

Originally Posted by TPM:

Runners on is a stat, no runners on is not. So just because its listed in the pitchers split stats, I think it has importance.

 

I guess you’ve been around much more sophisticated scorers than I have at the HS level, because I’ve never once seen anything about runners on, other than what I do. I’m sure someone does it, but I haven’t seen it and I assure you I’ve looked.

 

I don’t want to argue about what you see as a stat and what I do. Suffice it to say, I see anything that’s compiled and presented as a stat. It doesn’t have to be in the list of MLB statistics.

 

 I understand that you do not give one whit about velocity, but reality is, that its important to want to get as much velocity as one can from their FB because it affects all the other pitches that they throw.  Although it doesn't mean that a pitcher that throws harder than another is better, its just the way it is, velocity at 85 or at 95 has its significance to each individual pitcher.

 

We simply value different things differently. In my world of “normal” HS baseball, the most important thing a pitcher can possess is the ability to throw strikes. If he can do that, he will contribute just as much to his team as the pitcher with velocity. Now if you’re talking about a HS pitcher who can throw 96, that’s not exactly normal.

 

Again I think that it depends on the pitcher and what he feels comfortable with. I think that repeating the same mechanics over and over is so important so I really think that may be the thinking for sticking with one delivery over another.  That doesn't mean that the pitcher will always pitch from that delivery, but I can see why the coach may want him to stay with the stretch, for now. 

JMO

 

You’re correct! In fact, the repetition is more important than the whether the mechanic is “good” or “proper”.

I dont think whether you pitch from the stretch or windup determines velocity but rather which position you work more or less at.  Either one or the other or 50/50 should make it just about equal in speed.  Chapman throws 100 from stretch and windup.

Way ahead of you stats.  MLB has split stats from bases empty to bases loaded and everything in between.

Traditionally, the reason given is momentum, but I don't think that argument has any support in the world of physics. However, it's taught to pitchers from the beginning and becomes a part of their routine and pitching is all about rythym and routine. Additionally, right or wrong, while a majority of pitches are thrown from the stretch, a larger majority of bullpen warmups are pitched from the windup.

 

I see a similar logic problem with the leg kick. My own son has a very high leg kick but I don't see that it benefits him velocity-wise in any way.

I am working on a hypothesis that being a LHP there is more reason to pitch from a full wind up because you can still pick off first from a full wind up. 

 

A full wind up done properly should not only give more power , but more accuracy. Stretch with a leg lift diminishes this mildly. While not leg would diminish power and accuracy even more. 

 

I heard somewhere on a forum that had Nolan Ryan saying,  want more power, get a higher leg lift. 

You're going to have to come up with some sort of evidence of this, because physics doesn't agree. There is nothing done prior to leg lift that has any impact on what happens going forward.

LAball - interesting theory, however like RobT indicates, I would like to see more details of why you think the wind up creates more velo, and especially accuracy.

 

Any mechanics, either wind up or stretch, performed inefficiently will yield poor results, however I do not believe given the premise that both performed efficiently, one will provide better results over the other.  Once the body begins to move forward, I don't believe there is any difference whether one started from the stretch of windup.

 

If the leg comes to a specific position out of "leg kick" that is no different from the stretch or wind up, what difference does it matter how high the leg was  prior to the final position?  Whichever position Nolan Ryan came to after the "high" leg kick was not affected by how high he raised his leg prior to that final position...in fact he could have just started at that position without the leg kick at all (see Fernando Rodney).

 

I actually contend that more can go wrong with the extraneous movements associated with a full wind up, resulting in out of sequence movements at hand break, resulting in lower velocity, and diminished accuracy.  Since accuracy is a function of a highly consistent release window, derived from very repeatable mechanics, it would make sense that the few movements that have little, or no impact in additional power should be minimized.  Additionally, since both the stretch, and wind up allow the pitcher to build maximum elastic energy into ball release, outside of personal preference, why would anyone pitch from the windup.

 

Similar analogy - "hitting".  Obviously you see very different "styles" in hitting.  Some have a very dynamic load, with huge bat tilt, huge leg kicks (Giancarlo Stanton), etc., however you don't see any appreciable power increase versus guys that are very quiet with their feet, and bat (Pujols).  Why?  Because both styles allow the batter to obtain the same amount of "stretch" on the muscles going into bat launch. Given the choice in hitting, I'd prefer the style with less movement, it lends to more repeatable mechanics, same power output, and since you have less moving parts, you tend to be fooled less on the off speed pitches.   

 

Can you tell whether CC started in the stretch or windup here?

 

 

No but I can tell you he is throwing a changeup. 

A full wind up gives a higher, more rhythemic, less jerky leg lift. Higher and rhythem adds power. Rhythem and less jerky adds accuracy.

LAball - I would agree, only as it relates to a quick slide step, however your statement was a hypothesis based on LHP.  Many LHPs do not use a slide step, except occasionally.  I am needing to understand your premise more clearly.  I can see where less experienced, or younger pitchers may be rushed, or not very mechanically efficient when learning to pitch from the stretch, and they may appear more fluid from the full wind up.  Apart from that, I don't see what you are describing, in fact, many times I see quite the opposite.  LHP aside, look at Darvish, he went strictly to the stretch..why?...because he had better control, and still could dial up 96 at will. 

 

I posted the picture of CC above to prove a point.  I have watched, and studied some pitchers that for whatever reason, intrigue me, CC is one of them.  Going into front foot plant, as shown in the picture above, he is identical when you stop video from either the stretch, or full wind up.  His velocity does not suffer any, from either position, and as you can see, he gets into a very powerful position prior to touch down. 

 

If Darvish, Sabathia, Chapman, and others who either used to, or currently throw in the magical above 95+ range have no increase in velocity or control from the wind up, then no mechanical advantage is there.  You have to start with the elite pitchers in the MLB, since they have the best instruction, the most gifted athletes, and have excelled at the highest level.  If these elite pitchers do not show any appreciable advantage from one over the other, then one has to wonder why that is.  Sure, I'll buy that an individual may have more confidence, or better "feel" from one versus the other, however actual results differing is another thing.

I cant say for certain that a Full Wind Up adds accuracy, but I am very certain that with certain styles it adds velocity to a pitch. That is also why FWU brings the hands over head.

 

Why have historically pitchers used FWU? Pro pitchers nowadays may not use FWU because they are at full physcial potential and mechanical advantages may not be significant. Meaning nowadays we are muscling the pitch more often due to increased physical strength trainig for our pitchers , which maybe why we have more Tommy Johns.

LAball - I am guessing we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  I just don't see any actual increase in momentum or power derived from a full wind up versus a properly executed delivery from the stretch.  Your premise is that the pitchers who do not suffer drops in velocity are doing so because they exert more energy, than they would have from the wind up.....I don't see that at all, not in the case of the pitchers from MLB I described, nor from my son.  Once they begin moving to the plate, nothing they did before that provided any more momentum, torque, or arm whip.....I just don't see how it can, and I have not read anywhere actual reasons why it would, other than "it just does".  I've timed pitchers from both positions, and once they begin moving towards the plate, they land virtually at the same time.

 

Good debate nonetheless.

 

So why do pitcher pitch from FWU? Historically, presently

 

" It just does" is not good enough? Put it this way , there has been a LOT of research on hitting. slow mo vid, pros say swing down, inside the ball, straight down. and we laugh at the pros description of hitting. A pro batter "just does" IT.  Just because it cant be described doesnt mean its not there.

'Cause chicks now and always dig the windup. If Walter Johnston were alive, he'd tell you.

The windup allows for individual style (which is important to pitchers), and leads to better deception. There's a massive difference between watching a guy like Paul Byrd come out of the windup with his arms flying everywhere and watching a guy come out of the stretch.

Great topic...

 

I think many pitchers lose velocity from the stretch due to their focus being on the runner and the traditional slide step.  

 

Fernando Rodney is a great example of moving exceptionally well through the center of his body and the power of rotation.  If you watch Sonny Gray close enough, he'll turn the front foot in, as you will see in this video.  

 

The goal is to "pre-load" the hips. I hope it helps.  

 

http://youtu.be/H_IzSJW9ogU