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Strike Zone Questions

piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
Recently we have been getting some comments about the strike zone. Every year there are valid questions on what is and what shouldnt be a strike.....Now I'm not going to answer every question with this thread, but I thought it might be a good start to generate some understanding....

Understand that this is my thoughts, and my experiences and they are coming from an active working umpire, and not from a strict clinician point of view.....

The strike zone is:

If you can imagine an invisible floating column, 17 and a half inches wide that extends from a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and at the lower level is the hollow beneath the knee cap. The zone is determined by from each batters stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball

So as we know the strike zone changes for a 5'6" batter to a 6' batter...... Calling balls and strikes consistently is the goal. I hesitate to offer this statement since usually this is the Childs way out, but I will offer that it isn’t as easy as it seems.....But I will guarantee you that I will keep trying to get better.......

All of this adds to each umpire having their “own” zone....even as we all try to adhere to the rule book definition. I believe that serious umpires all try to call the strike zone as described in the rule book. Going back on my training, I can tell you based on video proof, that I call the borderline pitch inside and low a strike, but the outside and up pitch a ball.....now that is defining "my zone" over the strict rule book zone....that isn’t an arrogant notion on my part. It is just what happens when I am behind the plate attempting to judge a 3 dimensional strike zone that changes based on the batters height. Don’t know, not sure what I can do as a human to improve on that.

I try and keep as consistent a zone as possible to avoid problems, but it is what it is. Its a condition of my height, my stance, my experience and probably a hundred other factors.......I keep working to refine my zone to fit into the rule book, but truth be told, I probably wont ever get it book rule perfect.....

At my last clinic I attended, the ideal strike zone was described as an egg………more narrow up high and wider as you go lower then tapering back in at the bottom. This is a result one of those Computer tracking tools that find the optimum zone. I’ll never get to work with that level of technology but I would sure love to use it as a training tool.

People often ask about the Black and is it a strike ……In my world it is….. In higher baseball the black beveled edge is not even visible since it is buried below the ground. But most certainly at the most levels of baseball the black is absolutely considered part of the plate for the purpose of calling balls and strikes....

I do my best to contain my zone inside/outside, but in calling the black a strike, part of it has to do with the fact that the black is a half inch wide and the baseball is 3inches wide...a ball passing over the black can also be in the zone....asking amateur umpires to not call the black and Youth pitchers to not expect the strike call on the black is not realistic.

The vast majority of umpires, players and coaches expect a minimum of a ball width on the edges of the plate to be called a strike......

It is my hope that most players are not encountering the "Eric Gregg" zones..., a ball off the plate is not what I would constitute as a gross misses......But if a command pitcher has hit the zone all day, do they get that strike?.......probably.....but not as arrogantly intentional as you might think...a good pitcher/catcher widens the zone with good mechanics......

Hope this helps you see my view....Calling a good strike zone is where an umpire makes his reputation and it is something I work hard on.........Despite all our efforts, I feel there will always be some variance.......but I will try to get better......if at any time I feel I am doing "good enough" and fail to work on refining my game......I will call it a career.......
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TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
All I ask as a coach is that the strike zone stay the same during the game and not "float"---we can learn to adjust but only if the zone stays constant during the game--we will worry about the zone in the next game when we get there

The great part about baseball is that each game is different and the team that learns to adjust, both on the mound and at the plate, the quickest will have the advantage. This becomes quite important when you travel from state to state like we do.
S Snaredrum10+ posts
Total aggreement with piaa_ump on his post. My zone is a ball width and a stitch wide off the black, and mid-chest to knee-hollows vertically. To me it's a 3-D plate-shaped box over the plate that tapers at the top, especially close inside, and up and away. If a pitch "nicks" that box, it's a strike. I do give due respect to knees on the corners.

At a tournament last weekend (12U-14U... really good teams), late in one of the last games, a new pitcher tossed 3 consec balls in the same exact spot just off the outside corner. He hit the target perfectly, but still outside. At the half-inning, the O manager, as he was heading to the 3B coaches box, politely asked about them. After I told him they were outside (I was being nice that day!) he felt that his pitcher should've gotten the calls because he was banging the target. In my eye and mind, each one was just barely an inch out of my zone, but I didn't tell him that. All I said was, "Coach it's been the same zone all weekend."

After the game, he said that I had one of the tightest (most consistent) zones he had ever seen and he wasn't used to that.

Tonight league play starts, and I'll see the same team tonight and all summer. Yay. Will I give that kid that pitch? Maybe... if he can bring it in just a little to show he's adjusting. But I'm doing him no favors.

Later, in this same thread, I have a couple "Zone Abuse" scenes.

a P.S: What TRhit said is SO true. One of the coolest comps an umpire can get from the coaches is that your zone was consistent and didn't waver. The really good teams will acknowledge that every umpire is a little different, and the teams that make the adjustments both on O and D from game-to-game, get a lot of trophies.

Roger
Last edited by Snaredrum
T TW344100+ posts
We have been over this ground many times before on this website. There are many older posts that anyone interested in what I really think about this can look up. But nobody will.

I am 61 years old. I have played, umpired, managed and coached baseball since I can remember.

I will ask this one question of those of you who have made statements so far and those to come on this thread. If you consistently call a pitch MORE THAN TWO BASEBALLS off the black [inside, outside or both, you pick] a strike and simply say, "it's my strike zone and its been that all game/day/week/month/life" AND YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE CALLING A STRIKE MORE THAN TWO BASEBALLS OFF THE BALCK do you actually feel that you would be giving the position players who came to play baseball that day a fair game of baseball? Likewise, if you are consistently calling every pitch above the kneecap a ball do you actually fell that you would be giving the pitchers who have to pitch inside that zone a fair game? Would you answer be the same if Team A had a groundball pitcher and Team B had a high heat flyball pitcher?

And don't give me a song and dance about how they can adjust to whatever you do because the fact that either the hitters or the pitchers have to adjust their game plan to cope with the kind of strike zone I have used as an example should give you a hint on how I would answer the above question. But I remain curious as to how other's think.


TW344
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
If you consistently call a pitch MORE THAN TWO BASEBALLS off the black [inside, outside or both, you pick] a strike and simply say, "it's my strike zone and its been that all game/day/week/month/life"


I have not said this..............


what I have said is:

That I try to call the rule book zone to the best of my ability.... However that given the limits of my talent, ability, stature and many other factors, I may never get there.....

I also state if I ever get to a point where if at any time I feel I am doing "good enough" and fail to work on refining my game......I will call it a career.......
S Snaredrum10+ posts
quote:
If you consistently call a pitch MORE THAN TWO BASEBALLS off the black [inside, outside or both, you pick] a strike and simply say, "it's my strike zone and its been that all game/day/week/month/life"


I did not say this either. Doesn't really make sense to me. If I do ever expand the zone a little to avoid the "walkathon", it does get slightly wider. I rarely have to though, and it's usually only in younger divisions. For kids in our upper leagues and HS levels, the pitchers need to learn how to throw strikes. If they can't, perhaps he needs to re-eval his position choice. I don't believe I'm there to do what could almost be playing favorites and affecting an outcome because F1 can't find the zone. In the case I mentioned earlier (3 balls outside), could I have stretched out the zone a little... then a little more... then a little more? Leave the pitcher hoping that I'm going to "give him one" in a tight game? Or do I keep my zone steady and hope he can adjust without getting pounded?

I believe that a steady within the rulebook zone is best. At my main summer gig, I get the same teams night after night all summer long. I get to know all of the catchers and pitchers pretty well, it doesn't take them long to figure out where the zone is, and as the summer moves they (and the coaches and parents) count on me to keep it solid.

Like piaa, I only can do the best I can, and always concentrate and work on getting better.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
I agree with PIAA and others about the zone. I don't call nor condone a really wide strike. If it hits the plate at all then it's a strike and this will give that ball off. Anything more than that is not hittable ,is not a strike and shouldn't be called. Many catchers will slide out and try to get a batter to chase a wide pitch with two strikes. I don't care if the pitcher pops the glove or not, if he goes beyond my view of the zone then it's a ball.
Height, plate stance, catcher's position, and batter's position can all affect our view and perception of the zone. If the catcher makes us slide up to see then we have a different view than what we like.
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
I've said this before. Coaches all the way up to NCAA EXPECT pitches a few inches off the plate to be called strikes. The only place you will find a 17" plate is in the major leagues. If you aspire to higher levels of umpiring, I guarantee your instructors and evaluators will tell you to call more strikes. It makes for a better game.

I've seen too many umpires call a very tight plate, but call strikes on pitches at the top of the letters. Any good hitter will tell you - it is MUCH easier to hit a pitch 2-3 inches off the plate than some cheddar up there. And the hollow of the knee is a great place for a pitcher to live. I know purists will take some shots at me, but that's the way it is.
Last edited by dash_riprock
TA The All Knowing Garth10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
I've said this before. Coaches all the way up to NCAA EXPECT pitches a few inches off the plate to be called strikes. The only place you will find a 17" plate is in the major leagues. If you aspire to higher levels of umpiring, I guarantee your instructors and evaluators will tell you to call more strikes. It makes for a better game.

I've seen too many umpires call a very tight plate, but call strikes on pitches at the top of the letters. Any good hitter will tell you - it is MUCH easier to hit a pitch 2-3 inches off the plate than some cheddar up there. And the hollow of the knee is a great place for a pitcher to live. I know purists will take some shots at me, but that's the way it is.

I had admiration for you until I saw this dribble. Let me set everyone correct. The plate is the plate.
TA The All Knowing Garth10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by POLOGREEN:
Agree a strike is a strike...that's why we have a 10 run rule.

Well said, Pologreen. I receive emails and in one of them dash riprock ripped us (he is on my Ignore List for being a troll and I never see his posts; a friend emails me with them) expressing in his callous ("No "F" Way) that the plate is whatever he feels like it should be. . I have had this argument with him on other forums, he does not understand if you make up the rules as you go along, then there are no rules.

FYI Dash and I get along butI do tire of having to carry him
TA The All Knowing Garth10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
I've said this before. Coaches all the way up to NCAA EXPECT pitches a few inches off the plate to be called strikes. The only place you will find a 17" plate is in the major leagues. If you aspire to higher levels of umpiring, I guarantee your instructors and evaluators will tell you to call more strikes. It makes for a better game.

I've seen too many umpires call a very tight plate, but call strikes on pitches at the top of the letters. Any good hitter will tell you - it is MUCH easier to hit a pitch 2-3 inches off the plate than some cheddar up there. And the hollow of the knee is a great place for a pitcher to live. I know purists will take some shots at me, but that's the way it is.

In your fantasy world, dash, where you see yourself as a . This is NOT the way it is. Please produce these good hitters ALL who say.
JC Jeff Connell100+ posts
Being an umpire and a coach. If you can change the strikezone versus what the rules say, can you change other rules to fit your philosophy. I have had guys tell me that the balk rule means this or that and end with "I don't care what it says, that is what I will call." That is wrong for the players, coaches, fans, parents, and other umpires. The rules are written to be followed. I help coach 8U. A little kid's strike zone is the same as a big kids. Knees to chest, plate width. I do not believe you add or subtract from it. If you can't follow the rules as written, you should not be umpiring.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Getting the strike zone "right" for the little guys is always a problem. If you don't open up the zone they'll walk all day. If you do open up the zone you'll call kids out on pitches they can't reach. Not much worse than having a little guy who knows the strike zone look back at you with a hurt look in his eyes because he knows the pitch you just called him out on was outside. It doesn't help that you've called it the same for everyone else.
Y YHF100+ posts
Just got home from our 12u game and we had a zone similar to what I see a lot in these youth games. Blue gives nothing off the inside corner....2-3 balls off the outside corner is a strike, anything above the belt is a ball.

I saw a number of pitches on the chalk of the opposite batter's box called strikes. Plenty of pitches right down the middle at the belly button called balls.

In the younger age groups, I'd much rather see them tighten up the outside corner since the kids simply can't reach that pitch to put the bat on it. And I'd rather see them give strikes at least up to the bottom of the letters. At least the batters have a chance of hitting pitches in that location.
Rob KremerRob Kremer1,000+ posts
YHF:
funny, I am of the exact opposite view. I would much rather, at the early ages, widen the zone rather than expand it up and down.

A pitch 1-2 balls off the plate outside can actually be hit very squarely. But a pitch that far under the knee can only be driven into the ground. Same with high pitches vs inside pitches. I wouldn't mind teaching 8-12 year olds to swing at inside pitches a little off the plate, but high pitches should be taken.

Just my opinion. I am no expert. Very interesting discussion though!
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Interesting to see the umpires argue and throw barbs at each other---no wonder coaches go crazy with umpires---they cannot even agree among themselves

Umpires differ. Consistency is what matters most.

Many coaches will try to cheat. They will argue a call they know is correct. They will give a safe sign from the 3rd base coach's box when the runner is out by 3 feet. They will jump all over an umpire and tell him he's terrible for missing (in their eyes) a whacker at 1st base, then they'll send a runner home who gets thrown out by a mile with no outs and down by 6 runs.

Gimme a break.
TA The All Knowing Garth10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Interesting to see the umpires argue and throw barbs at each other---no wonder coaches go crazy with umpires---they cannot even agree among themselves

Astute of you, TRhit. Mark that it is the troll umpires who believe that the strike zone is only 17 " wide by the rule book. Be as astute in determining who they are and mark off their comments as balderdash.
TA The All Knowing Garth10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Being an umpire and a coach. If you can change the strikezone versus what the rules say, can you change other rules to fit your philosophy. I have had guys tell me that the balk rule means this or that and end with "I don't care what it says, that is what I will call." That is wrong for the players, coaches, fans, parents, and other umpires. The rules are written to be followed. I help coach 8U. A little kid's strike zone is the same as a big kids. Knees to chest, plate width. I do not believe you add or subtract from it. If you can't follow the rules as written, you should not be umpiring.

Spoken well, Jeff, beware of the troll umpires who fit their personalities into the game distorting it. Many are frustrated coaches who never coached and feel left out. They want to teach the game by their officiating.
TA The All Knowing Garth10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by piaa_ump:
quote:
I am sure you mean well but this is wrong, dead wrong. Please correct.


I'm open to hear your interpretation.....

Interpretation as to what is a strike? Versus yours that says the zone is limited to 17.5" in width? I cannot assist you as you differ from the rules by such gargantuan proportions that the path to rule book reality is more than I can lead you to.
Y YHF100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
YHF:
funny, I am of the exact opposite view. I would much rather, at the early ages, widen the zone rather than expand it up and down.

A pitch 1-2 balls off the plate outside can actually be hit very squarely. But a pitch that far under the knee can only be driven into the ground. Same with high pitches vs inside pitches. I wouldn't mind teaching 8-12 year olds to swing at inside pitches a little off the plate, but high pitches should be taken.

Just my opinion. I am no expert. Very interesting discussion though!


I agree. And I love this stuff. If we all agreed all the time it wouldn't be nearly as much fun and I wouldn't learn as much. I don't umpire and never have so that probably affects my viewpoint on the topic.

I don't have much issue with the low strike in youth ball. To me, I'd like to see strikes called on pitches one ball inside, one ball outside, and one ball below the knee. My issue with the 'way outside' strike (i.e. 2, 3, 4 balls out) is that our kids can't reach it. Perhaps others can but we couldn't last night and haven't in previous games. After a couple innings we had to tell the kids to crowd the plate as much as possible to try to reach it because the other coaches (smartly) just set the catcher up between the plate and the other batter's box on nearly every pitch. And perhaps not surprisingly our guys were hanging over the plate and two of them were hit by pitches that were over the plate and called strikes. To me, that's a tough way to learn the strike zone. I'm just personally dumbfounded that a catcher sets up with the mitt between the plate and chalk box and moves the mitt further out to receive the pitch and it's a strike. But, that's the way it is and so we tried to deal with it. Fortunately, Blue was consistent for both teams.

Regarding high strikes, I don't want the shoulder-high pitches called of course. But there's a lot of space between the belt and bottom of the letters and to me that's a pretty hittable area (for youth ball).

One good thing is our kids are learning early that strike zones vary and they have to adjust. That is a positive.
Last edited by YHF
JC Jeff Connell100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
Jeff Connell: are you saying that the strike zone for 8U is the same as it is for MLB? Good luck.

Then rewrite the rule book and have home plate for younger kids be 24". But it is hard to explain to a kid that these are the rules except when the adults want to change them for their needs or purposes or wants.
last night in a high school game there was so inconsistency that the players did not know what to call. It was the same in a 8U tournament this weekend when our smallest player got called out on a pitcher completely over his head. The umpire responded, he's too short to call his strike zone.
If you can't call by the book, don't call or change the book.
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
Jeff - you are comparing apples to carburetors. I couldn't agree more that every game needs a consistent strike zone. It should be the same from the 1st inning to the last.

You don't have to explain anything to the kids. If the zone is consistent (and I know that's a big IF), it doesn't take long to figure out what pitches to swing at and what pitches to take.

If D-1 college umpires are calling strikes on 90 mph fastballs a baseball off the plate (and they most assuredly are, or they are getting dinged on their evals.), then a 9 year-old can certainly hit a 30 mph puffball in the same place.

Many new umpires make the MISTAKE of calling strikes by the book. What is the result? Coaches have every hitter take a strike or two, every hitter goes deep in the count, there are a zillion walks, pitchers get frustrated with the microplate and throw more balls, pitch counts soar, teams run out of pitchers, the kids get bored, the fans get bored, and you generally have a very lousy game that will always be terminated early (thankfully) if there is any kind of time limit. No thanks.
TA The All Knowing Garth10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
You don't have to explain anything to the kids.

This statement speaks to your love of the game in spades, RipOffRock.

quote:
If D-1 college umpires are calling strikes on 90 mph fastballs a baseball off the plate (and they most assuredly are, or they are getting dinged on their evals.), then a 9 year-old can certainly hit a 30 mph puffball in the same place.

Said D-1 umpires are not calling those "strikes" as strikes consistently and you cannot back or justify this purposeful untruth, RipOffRock.

quote:
Many new umpires make the MISTAKE of calling strikes by the book. What is the result?

The game gets played by the rules? clapping

quote:
Coaches have every hitter take a strike or two, every hitter goes deep in the count, there are a zillion walks, pitchers get frustrated with the microplate and throw more balls, pitch counts soar, teams run out of pitchers, the kids get bored, the fans get bored, and you generally have a very lousy game that will always be terminated early (thankfully) if there is any kind of time limit. No thanks.

Or coaches have every hitter swinging at (what you intimte is) so few good pitches, every hitter goes up to the plate using his bat, there are a zillion swings and more ball in play, pitchers get learn to throw strikes and throw fewer pitches, pitch counts lessen, teams train all pitchers, the kids get to feel as if the game has standards, the fans get bored (who cares?), and you generally have a very well played game that will always be terminated on time(thankfully) if there is any kind of time limit. Works for me.
Last edited by The All Knowing Garth
JC Jeff Connell100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
Jeff - you are comparing apples to carburetors. I couldn't agree more that every game needs a consistent strike zone. It should be the same from the 1st inning to the last.

You don't have to explain anything to the kids. If the zone is consistent (and I know that's a big IF), it doesn't take long to figure out what pitches to swing at and what pitches to take.

If D-1 college umpires are calling strikes on 90 mph fastballs a baseball off the plate (and they most assuredly are, or they are getting dinged on their evals.), then a 9 year-old can certainly hit a 30 mph puffball in the same place.

Many new umpires make the MISTAKE of calling strikes by the book. What is the result? Coaches have every hitter take a strike or two, every hitter goes deep in the count, there are a zillion walks, pitchers get frustrated with the microplate and throw more balls, pitch counts soar, teams run out of pitchers, the kids get bored, the fans get bored, and you generally have a very lousy game that will always be terminated early (thankfully) if there is any kind of time limit. No thanks.

I do not believe as an umpire that you can stretch the zone and remain consistent. There is no reference point. Don't give me that imaginary rectangle, it is imaginary for a reason, no reference points. Call it by the book and make them throw strikes, by the book. The batters will have to hit and the game will be more fun for everyone. It is when you stretch the zone that it becomes frustrating for the players, fans, and coaches. They do not know what is a strike. It is funny to me that we as umpires will argue a rule to the nth degree in that it means what it says and use the verbage of the rule to explain why it has to be called that way, except the strike zone. It does not say a baseball off the black. It says the width of the plate. If it is okay to change that rule, is it okay for me to decide an out at first is as long as the first baseman catches it before the runner has taken a step past first. it would speed up the game and as long as I was consistent it would be okay in your thinking. Or if he tags up within a second of the outfielder catching the ball. Consistency is all that matters. Or if it hits his glove whether he catches it or not, as long as I am consistent. The players, coaches, and fans will know what an out is as long as I am consistent.
Do you not realize to others how silly this statement is when they read it. We have justified our stretching the rule by saying as long as we are consistent. I have 8 year olds who say, isn't that the rule?
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
This from another forum:

"We train our umpires that pitches two balls off the inside corner and two balls off the outside corner are STRIKES if the catcher sticks the pitch.

We (following the lead of the PAC-10 guys that work the National Champion) look for strikes."

That's from an Oregon state trainer of umpires, as he was taught by D-1 umpires who work the college world series.

Jeff, if you went to a clinic, and the instructors were highly experienced high school and college umpires, and they said you needed to call more strikes, would you listen to them, or would you show them the rule book?
JC Jeff Connell100+ posts
I understand the problem. I have been there. But it does not fix it. It just adds to it. I have argued in our college and high school meetings that this is wrong. The rules are there for enforcing not interpretting. The problem with umpiring and officiating is that we as officials want to interpret rather than enforce.
It happens in baseball, basketball, football, etc. If you want to say this is how it has to be, fine. But don't argue that it is right. Some times we have to do things that we are told to do even when they are wrong. But that does not make it right. My point is that we should say, "I agree it is wrong, but that is how it has to be. I'm told to call it a strike even when I know in my heart it is not."
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
Jeff,

I admire you for sticking to your guns. I don't agree that is a matter of right and wrong, but rather a matter of strictly enforcing the strike zone as defined in the rules, or expanding it reasonably ("interpreting" as you put it) to suit the level of play. And there is no doubt that the gamut of levels of play is enormous.

I believe a good ball & strike umpire who adjusts the zone will make for a better baseball game without being noticed a bit.

Anyway, thanks for the debate Jeff. Good luck with your games.

BTW: Ever watch the LLWS? Those guys have HUGE zones. Even I think they're too big. I wouldn't be surprised to see 'em ring up the rosin bag.
TA The All Knowing Garth10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
This from another forum:

"We train our umpires that pitches two balls off the inside corner and two balls off the outside corner are STRIKES if the catcher sticks the pitch.

We (following the lead of the PAC-10 guys that work the National Champion) look for strikes."

That's from an Oregon state trainer of umpires, as he was taught by D-1 umpires who work the college world series.

This is exactly the kind of pervasive idiocy that needs to be reigned in. TWO BALLS OFF EACH CORNER? That means the "plate" is over two feet wide!

Lunacy and no wonder no one respects you.
TA The All Knowing Garth10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
I understand the problem. I have been there. But it does not fix it. It just adds to it. I have argued in our college and high school meetings that this is wrong. The rules are there for enforcing not interpretting.

You have missed the incredible new umpire approach. "We are the Kings, we set the rules, we interp the rules and "RATS" (coaches) had best get used to it.

Pure, eogotistical BS, nothing more.

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