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quote:
Originally posted by cabbagedad:
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/...truck-161156204.html

Shaq Thompson, the nation's #4 football recruit, was also drafted by the Red Sox. Sometimes the scouts are wrong and phenomenal athletic ability alone doesn't cut it.


Mr. Kaufman's idea and funding with the Kansas City Royals Baseball School in Florida was at best a bust. The best of football and basketball athletes today are not baseball players. Didn't Jordan prove that? A few times, the pro scouts are .......on a right track.
quote:
Originally posted by Bear:
quote:
Originally posted by cabbagedad:
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/...truck-161156204.html

Shaq Thompson, the nation's #4 football recruit, was also drafted by the Red Sox. Sometimes the scouts are wrong and phenomenal athletic ability alone doesn't cut it.


Mr. Kaufman's idea and funding with the Kansas City Royals Baseball School in Florida was at best a bust. The best of football and basketball athletes today are not baseball players. Didn't Jordan prove that? A few times, the pro scouts are .......on a right track.


Maybe in US it was becasue kids stay at home and wait to finish HS and get drafted or go to school. The Jackson & Sanders efforts and the Dominican programs and elsewhere in the Caribbean argue differently. You can't teach size and speed.
I challenge anyone on the face of the earth to quit baseball as a senior in high school and focus your entire athletic existence on another sport for 13 years. Then, in the blink of an eye, try to go back to playing baseball and put up the numbers he did in double-A.

In the context of the scenario, I consider Jordan to have had a very successful professional baseball career: http://www.baseball-reference.....cgi?id=jordan001mic

So please, let's not compare 40 ABs from an 18-year-old rookie ball player to statistics of a man 18 years ago. Seems like everyone is trying to find some sort of reasoning for scouts to NOT scout the best athletes in the game. And frankly, the arguments people are making are a bit over the top.
quote:
Originally posted by fanofgame:
… Most teams believe they can teach an athletic players the skills. ….


“Most teams”? I’ve never heard of one that’s said anything different. Wink

But the question isn’t whether or not an athletic player can be taught skills. The question is, will all athletic players play better than all players with less athleticism, however that’s defined?
quote:
Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
.

    "Michael Jordon couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and he was arguably the greatest basketball player in history."

In his defense the barn he was trying to hit wasn't very big...



7.5" long X 5.5" wide X 5.75 high...and with a gambrel roof! Forget about it!


Wink

.


That's huge to us N-scalers.
Part of what we love about sports is celebrating the highs AND the lows. Sportscenter shows the top ten and the bottom ten and they are both very popular segments. We love amazing plays, walk-offs and, yes, bloopers too. We love to see history made, good or bad. We love records, of success and futility. I just think it’s amazing that a guy can be 0-37 with 36 K’s. Heck yeah, this is worth writing about. If it were my own kid or even myself, I still would still expect it to be written about. And this is not a guy that we need to feel sorry for. Heck, he’s the #4 football recruit in the country. He has great things ahead of him. I agree with infielddad that it is not out of the question that he turns into a good pro baseball player (although way more likely that he becomes a big-time FB player). I have learned some things from TPM in the past about these young athletes being “ people too” and we shouldn’t be too harsh, and I appreciate that. But come on, 36 K’s in 37 AB’s. That is incredible and worth talkin’ about.

Yes, I did mention the “drafted for athleticism” aspect as a secondary subject in my OP and I think that made for some interesting discussion as well.

One of my HS experiences was being on a top tennis team in the NE. We thought we were the s&*!, dominating most in our region. Then we did a tour to Florida and got our butts wiped around the court by just about every school we played against. I learned to laugh at myself. Another time, as part of basketball training, a coach decided to set up boxing matches as a conditioning/toughness exercise. I was a somewhat confident athlete to say the least... got my clock cleaned by a “lesser athlete” who happened to know how to box (who knew? - I still think it was a setup). After the embarrassment wore off, I was able to laugh at myself. I don’t know, I just expect a guy getting paid to play pro sports, regardless of how young, to be able to handle some criticism and expect the print particularly if he has a record-setting type of bad performance. It’s not a personal attack, it’s just calling out an extraordinary event. JMO.
Last edited by cabbagedad
quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
The question is, will all athletic players play better than all players with less athleticism, however that’s defined?

From a MLB club's point of view, that's not the question either. Instead it is something like: " Which player will turn out to be one of the 3% (or so) of drafted players who make a noticeable contribution at the MLB level?"

Most pro players top out in talent, developed skill, or desire before they reach the majors. The easiest of these three attributes to project is talent (tools). Of course they draft the toolsy players in preference to skilled players, unless the player's skill is already close to good enough.
quote:
Originally posted by fanofgame:
Stats,

In my humble opinion and from what I have witnessed is the more athletic player gets noticed more often and receives more opportunity to
Prove they can't play.


No one is disagreeing with that, at least I’m not. I’m only asking if that’s the most efficient way to choose players for professional ball, or for any other level for that matter. And how is the athleticism being measured? From what I can tell, its mainly measured by a radar gun and measuring stick for pitchers, and a stopwatch for hitters. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
From a MLB club's point of view, that's not the question either. Instead it is something like: " Which player will turn out to be one of the 3% (or so) of drafted players who make a noticeable contribution at the MLB level?"


Change the question to whatever you want, but my question stays the same.

“Will all athletic players play better than all players with less athleticism, however that’s defined?”

If the answer is yes, then the discussion’s moot. But if its no, then it should be determined how valid the philosophy is.

quote:
Most pro players top out in talent, developed skill, or desire before they reach the majors. The easiest of these three attributes to project is talent (tools). Of course they draft the toolsy players in preference to skilled players, unless the player's skill is already close to good enough.


I’m sorry, but that just doesn’t make sense to me. How does a player who’s being chosen purely on “talent” show he has the tools? You know if a kid is 6’3”/200# and runs a 4.1 40, he’s gonna be labeled as having “talent”. But that doesn’t mean he can hit, let alone hit with power, have a great arm, or be able to catch a ball.

You seem to be assuming everyone chosen has fully demonstrated their tools are better than anyone else available.
quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
quote:
Originally posted by fanofgame:
… Most teams believe they can teach an athletic players the skills. ….


“Most teams”? I’ve never heard of one that’s said anything different. Wink

But the question isn’t whether or not an athletic player can be taught skills. The question is, will all athletic players play better than all players with less athleticism, however that’s defined?


I think the obvious answer is no. If I've heard it once, I've heard it a lot times , "you can't teach speed" whether it's on the mound or basepads. They may be true, but you can't teach baseball sense either.

In my limited experience - I've witnessed coaches putting in pinch runners who ran into outs on routine fly balls. Got picked off. Ran into a batted ball... etc etc Y'all know what I mean.

Scouts/coaches are going to pick and choose according to their taste and preference. Nothing any of us can do about it.

I wish baseball Shaq the best, at this point he is probably trying too hard making things worse.
quote:
Originally posted by calisportsfan:

I hope he goes 3 for 3 then heads off to the football field and has a great college experience. Knowing the school he comes out of, my guess is that any signing money he got was well needed for college.

This kid has done nothing wrong.


Not a bad summer job, huh? Pretty smart kid, if you ask me.
quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
How does a player who’s being chosen purely on “talent” show he has the tools? You know if a kid is 6’3”/200# and runs a 4.1 40, he’s gonna be labeled as having “talent”. But that doesn’t mean he can hit, let alone hit with power, have a great arm, or be able to catch a ball.

For a hitter, "talent" primarily means two things. 1) Bathead speed, because it makes balls go farther and gives the defenders less time to react. 2) Bat quickness, because it allows the hitter to see the ball for more time before it is necessary to commit to a swing. Both of these can be evaluated regardless of the outcome of a series of at bats, even if the player is striking out. The weight and stature of a player is nearly irrelevant if he has the two above talents.

Footspeed is good, of course, since it is always valuable on offense. But the main value of speed is that it opens up more positions on the field to the player. If a player runs a 7.2 60, he's probably only suited for 1st base, and he'd better have lots of batspeed and quickness. If he can run a 6.8, there's at least three times as many spots on the roster for him. The speedy player is still attractive even if he has less batspeed/quickness.

For a pitcher, talent means velocity, and to a lesser extent, fastball movement. Both of these are really hard to teach. Location and specialty pitches are easier (but not easy!) to learn.

Of course, this is painting with a broad brush, and there's no question that developed skill and desire are also primary factors. But for the folks whose business is evaluating baseball players, talent is easiest to see and project.
cabbagedad,
I had no issue with you posting the article. What I have issues with are those writers that post stories with no real substance, no real info, just some random story that in this case might make a young man look like a loser. One thing that I have come to learn, that more people want a player to fail rather than suceed.

I also have issue, apparently, with those that pass judgement on others without fully knowing all of facts as well. If anyone wants to give an opinion to a story, that's fair. What is unfair is making judgements, comments about players when you really don't know the entire story.

So here is a make sense story that marks the end of the players season. For those who like bashing the Red Sox for trying a different approach, those people need to understand that organizations will do ANYTHING they can, go to any lengths, pay any amount of money to find and develop talent. That is the way it is and always will be.

They'll even try guys who are not REAL baseball players. Smile

Understand that unless you know the entire story, and that it comes from the people who are calling the shots, you don't know THE whole story.

http://www.weei.com/sports/bos...e-why-prospect-shaq-
Last edited by TPM
3FingeredGlove,

Yeah, and a reaaaaaally broad brush at that. Wink

But more on point is this. Those things you’ve listed are valid, but how many of them can be measured objectively? As far as I know, they haven’t yet perfected “hitting radar” that gives a number the way pitching radar does, so that’s still an “art” that I guarantee not all coaches or scouts have mastered.

Foot speed is much easier to put a value on because it can be and is measured by fairly objective means, i.e. a stopwatch. For a pitcher, the radar gun has become king of the talent finders, to the detriment of the game IMHO. How did anyone ever get signed to a contract or get chosen to pitch on a college team before the gun? Evidently, back then other things such as movement, location, and ability to “succeed” played much more of a part in it.

I don’t mind at all that many decisions are based on subjective decision making. But when the players to be judged that way are 1st culled out by objective means, and those means don’t take into consideration anything else, the process seems to me to be compromised.
“We, as an industry, are trying to get athletes into MLB. We don’t want to lose them to other sports,” said Sawdaye. “So, when we get the opportunity to get a player who has some potential, is an elite athlete, and -- most importantly -- wants to play baseball, it would be a shame if we turn our backs on them.


“Even worse, if we put a microscope on those players -- any player, for that matter -- and ridicule them for their struggles through their first full season, we will never be able to attract the raw player who needs to go through his growing pains. We need to be prepared to take these players and watch them struggle -- it’s not easy, but it’s necessary

Two quotes from the artice.Good article.
After reading the WEEI article it's hard not to route for the kid. He's working hard every day. It probably wasn't hard to accept 45K for a month of work to see if he could play. The kid has a great summer job lined up. He can make 100K over the next four summers. No one said he will make the majors. But a lot of 18th rounders don't. If a minor leaguer hits .000 or .150, if he doesn't get moved up it's all the same.

Without identifying the kid, being a good baseball player doesn't guarantee a quality minor league experience. This kid was offered a ride to Stanford and drafted in the top ten rounds. He signed out of high school. In three years before being released he didn't get out of rookie ball.

1st year: .192, 46 k's in 151 ab's, 24 errors
2nd year: .127, 20 k's in 71 ab's, 20 errors
3rd year: .186, 45 k's in 145 ab's, 22 errors

It's not as ugly as Shaq Thompson. But it didn't end well. He was released after the third seaon. He probably only got a third chance due to being young and a high draft choice.
Last edited by RJM

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