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94 replies

Student-Athlete Compensation

P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Besides, while baseball is a passion it is not a realistic profession for at least 95% of the college players. If you are choosing your school because of the baseball tradition and success you are not being realistic about your future.




The thing is, no college sport is a realistic profession for 95% of the participants, it is just a way to help pay for an education for those that can't afford to pay it otherwise. Maybe the revenues should be put in one big pot and given out with the same criteria as FAFSA and each student would recieve the same % of tuition within a given institution. I don't really know the best answer, just that the current system is not fair to all student athletes.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
By the way, there have been some changes that have occured, college baseball is changing.
For example, why has a small school like Coastal Carolina (no football) become successful in baseball.....


Yea, there have been ripples but not many waves. Time is the true indicator for a program to be called a "force". At this point there are many "flashes in the pan", but few are "cooking with gas". IMHO as soon as that one kid leaves CC that team will be looking hard for someone to beat on a regular basis.
Last edited by ClevelandDad
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
For the record Coastal Carolina has a football program, a new stadium, and 4 players in the pros including the KC Chiefs starting QB


Good catch TR.

A better example is my sons Alma Mater the Univ of IL-Chicago aka UIC. Northern location, no football program, commonly called the Univ of Indian and Chinese because of it research and student diversity. A virtual baseball unknown until they started racking up 9 consecutive 30 win seasons, NCAA regional wins the last two years, playing the likes of Miami, GT, TN, Vandy, MS, Ark, Wash, LBS, Neb, OK St, A&M, and this year going down to play TX. Rivals.com recently named them the top IL baseball college after years of being a "kick-dog". Add a new 5000 sq foot clubhouse and upgrade the stadium to field turf that many say plays better than ANY field in Chicago with probably the coolest metropolitan CF backdrop pro or college, and at night it is the best hands down IMHO. Most of this has been done with those "non-athletic", "talent lacking" Northern kids.

It can be done, but it takes time, commitment, booster donations, and buy-in from everyone while at the same time not comprising Academic standards. That's even a tougher road to hoe if your "well to do" neighbors around the country are playing with a stacked deck.

But it's still only a ripple in the pond ruled by the big fish
Last edited by rz1
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
rz1 the only people that assume those northern kids are non athletic and lacking in talent are the people that have never had the opportunity to compete against them or see them play.

I know this is off the topic but we have had the opportunity to play against hs teams from up north several times. They come down during spring break to get in some games. What I found was they were very fundementally sound and very talented. They play hard nosed baseball. You can tell they are out to prove they can play with anyone. And they can.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
For example, why has a small school like Coastal Carolina (no football) become successful in baseball. There is no rich football program to support it.

You could probably say the same thing about Rice which has about half the student body Coastal does.

With respect to Coastal, their location has lots to do with it. Several on their roster come from the north and Myrtle Beach is an awfully nice place to play baseball and go to school. Ask PG about the northern lhp they recruited this year from NY.

The most important reason is the coaching. Their coach (an alumnus of the school) was a big winner at the D2 level before arriving and turning the program around in 1996. This has provided great stability to the program. After the coach's first two years there, all they have done is win. Winning is very attractive to many players and that is the #1 reason they are successful. As was mentioned in another thread however, many say they want to win but I think some are shocked when they find out how hard you have to work to actually win. I doubt there are many who are outworking them.
Last edited by ClevelandDad
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Now all we need is for the warm weather teams is to cinch it up and and enter events up here in the northeast----would like to see how they do out of their "comfort zone*"

Certainly would be some great baseball


or at have the balls to do home-n-home and not use the excuse "our conference schedule" because that excuse goes both ways. The only thing I can come up with is....


scardey cats
Last edited by rz1
Backstop-17Backstop-17500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Now all we need is for the warm weather teams is to cinch it up and and enter events up here in the northeast----would like to see how they do out of their "comfort zone*"

Certainly would be some great baseball


or at have the balls to do home-n-home and not use the excuse "our conference schedule" because that excuse goes both ways. The only thing I can come up with is....


scardey cats


What comfort zone would they be leaving to play in? Outside of the East Cobb teams, no southern teams have a monopoly on playing in a comfort zone. Most of our travel teams go to different locations other than our home fields to compete. Why would we leave the south to do that when we have so much competition here? And if it is weather you are talking about, excluding below 40 degrees, southern teams play in all types of weather.

Must be pretty insecure to keep bringing up the same ole northern vs. southern player argument. Just play the game.

And how did a thread on student-athlete compensation turn into this?
Last edited by Backstop-17
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Now all we need is for the warm weather teams is to cinch it up and and enter events up here in the northeast----would like to see how they do out of their "comfort zone*"

Certainly would be some great baseball


or at have the balls to do home-n-home and not use the excuse "our conference schedule" because that excuse goes both ways. The only thing I can come up with is....


scardey cats

Since it is 10 below zero, I am willing to debate this one Big Grin

The reason they don't play in the north is because they don't have to. I suppose you could call that scared but it is mostly downside to even consider it imho. Travel up north, play in colder/poorer weather, with the likihood to lower your rpi and give the other team the advantage? It looks like all downside to me and no upside.

rz1 - I am sure your son could have played further south than Illinois but he chose not to. I would say it is a critical decision for a baseball player. It is a sport best played and practiced in the warm weather. The best competition is in the south and west as most (not all) players (north and south) want to play there. I did everything in my power so my son could play in the south. I am fully aware that it is not a deal-killer (for pros) if your son does not play in the south as your son is a fine testament to that.

Before Oldlsugger yells at me, I am also highly aware there are northern kids who can play as well or better than kids in the south or west. That to me is not the issue. The issue is if you want to play in the best conditions, have the most advantages like we are talking about here, and play against the best competition (in general not in every case), then play in the south or west. Otherwise, I don't quite understand the complaints. Now I'll sit back and take my beating but that beats freezing to death
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
Given the time of year college ball is played, to me there was no choice. It was play college ball down south or stay home.
We have a very good college team 10 mins from my home. The weather in early spring is often horendous. There is no fall season but there is talk of playing in the fall. Usually it is not too bad up to the end of Oct. Many of the US college players retun after graduation to play here for a year or 2. There is no eligibility rule other than being a full time student.
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
Its all about the weather. College teams are not going to travel north to play in freezing temps when they can stay at home or travel even further south to play in much more comfortable conditions. Lets face it playing in good weather is just a lot more fun for the players and the fans as well.

I do want to take my summer team up north at some point and time this year if we can work it out. I would just like to play at a couple of different venues and see a different part of the country. There is great competition everywhere.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
btw- this post was tongue-n-cheek. No offense was intended.

quote:
or at have the balls to do home-n-home and not use the excuse "our conference schedule" because that excuse goes both ways. The only thing I can come up with is....


scardey cats


We all pick our own poison and while it would be the "cats-meow" if the weather was the same all over, it's not. The other side of the coin is that long distant road trips are a players learning experience about organization and also opportunities to see and play in other parts of this country. The glass may not be half empty for the Northern guys, it may be half full to be able to experience the "other side", because the team depth of elite Southern baseball is unique IMHO.
Last edited by rz1
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by powertoallfields:
quote:
Besides, while baseball is a passion it is not a realistic profession for at least 95% of the college players. If you are choosing your school because of the baseball tradition and success you are not being realistic about your future.




The thing is, no college sport is a realistic profession for 95% of the participants, it is just a way to help pay for an education for those that can't afford to pay it otherwise. Maybe the revenues should be put in one big pot and given out with the same criteria as FAFSA and each student would recieve the same % of tuition within a given institution. I don't really know the best answer, just that the current system is not fair to all student athletes.


I am sorry about Coastal lacking football, I was actually thinking of another situation, at 1:46 am I wasn't thinking straight.
Is it fair to use FAFSA as an example, I am under the impression that this qualifies everyone seperately based on their own economic situation.

I thought I read something you stated about scholarships for woman's rowing, it's not a HS sport and there are no professional crew teams? Does this mean that every player who played HS baseball should get a shot at college ball? Is my understanding that you feel that equality in college sports is only for those of one gender? If you want to stand for equality, you got to do so across the board. If 95% of the college baseball population does not go further, why would baseball be more important? This is about education, the reason for my earlier comments about going to play proball out of HS (if drafted). You have no choice for football, one of the reasons why I would suppose that they get full scholarships, they MUST go to college first. Pro baseball has other ideas about that. And the NCAA doesn't like it either, I can't understand why, they save alot of time and money on some getting their work in college and continue to draft more and more college players. Perhaps MLB and the NCAA could partner together in some way.

One thing I have learned and told other parents who ask questions, don't ever assume that sports may someday pay for one's education, assume that this may not happen, plan accordingly. If you plan on this happening it most likely will not happen.

I am not sure either how this got to be a north-south issue again, but that happens here, frequently.
Last edited by TPM
Infield08Infield081,000+ posts
Back to the original topic, here's an interesting post from the Rivals.com message board:

No other sport at the NCAA level demands so much of its athletes than baseball. Consider this...

1. 45 sanctioned fall practice days peppered with 6:30am strength and conditioning sessions throughout the entire fall semester. Many warm weather teams have extra team captain supervised practices on top of this.

2. Practices/games the entire spring semester as well as strength and conditioning and team captain supervised practices.

3. Up to 5 games a week...no other sport in amateur or the pros with the exception of MLB has this kind of grueling schedule...and that's on top of 12-14 units of college courses. These guys are working the equivalent of two full time jobs...for what $5,000???? You guys are right...that's a serious violation of civil/worker rights.

4. In reality 14 scholly's are not even enough...To make things equal for a sport that IS generating a profit at many schools...baseball should offer at least 20. 14 is an embarrassment and 11.7 is a moral outrage.

5. The time demands of baseball and the costs many parents have to invest in College Development Programs, showcases and lessons just to get to the next level at many of the top producing programs is upside down. More money is spent to qualify a kid to get to the next level than is granted to him once he gets there.

6. The irony is...many schools ARE investing more and more money into facilities, top coaches and marketing...I guess the mantra...if you build it..."they" (scholarships in this case) will come does not apply to the NCAA and their opinion of baseball...However, they encourage schools to build new basketball palaces, and football venues and get rewarded...

7. The NCAA is dead wrong and legal action must be taken to challenge this ruling.

8. I wish an official from the NCAA would take the time to answer us in this type of forum...on this message board...their rationale for rulings that have the potential to ruin this great sport. Unfortunately, the tuition paying/hard working average Joe is not granted this type of transparency. The NCAA is a cloaked and secret organization/dictatorship that answers to no one apparently.
Last edited by Infield08
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Infield08:
Back to the original topic, here's an interesting post from the Rivals.com message board:

No other sport at the NCAA level demands so much of its athletes than baseball. Consider this...

1. 45 sanctioned fall practice days peppered with 6:30am strength and conditioning sessions throughout the entire fall semester. Many warm weather teams have extra team captain supervised practices on top of this.

2. Practices/games the entire spring semester as well as strength and conditioning and team captain supervised practices.

3. Up to 5 games a week...no other sport in amateur or the pros with the exception of MLB has this kind of grueling schedule...and that's on top of 12-14 units of college courses. These guys are working the equivalent of two full time jobs...for what $5,000???? You guys are right...that's a serious violation of civil/worker rights.

4. In reality 14 scholly's are not even enough...To make things equal for a sport that IS generating a profit at many schools...baseball should offer at least 20. 14 is an embarrassment and 11.7 is a moral outrage.

5. The time demands of baseball and the costs many parents have to invest in College Development Programs, showcases and lessons just to get to the next level at many of the top producing programs is upside down. More money is spent to qualify a kid to get to the next level than is granted to him once he gets there.

6. The irony is...many schools ARE investing more and more money into facilities, top coaches and marketing...I guess the mantra...if you build it..."they" (scholarships in this case) will come does not apply to the NCAA and their opinion of baseball...However, they encourage schools to build new basketball palaces, and football venues and get rewarded...

7. The NCAA is dead wrong and legal action must be taken to challenge this ruling.

8. I wish an official from the NCAA would take the time to answer us in this type of forum...on this message board...their rationale for rulings that have the potential to ruin this great sport. Unfortunately, the tuition paying/hard working average Joe is not granted this type of transparency. The NCAA is a cloaked and secret organization/dictatorship that answers to no one apparently.




AMEN!!! I actually wrote a letter to Myles Brand and asked him for the criteria or guide lines for allotting scholarships for different sports about 2 weeks ago. I haven't received an answer yet, probably won't either.
Last edited by powertoallfields
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
I thought I read something you stated about scholarships for woman's rowing, it's not a HS sport and there are no professional crew teams? Does this mean that every player who played HS baseball should get a shot at college ball? Is my understanding that you feel that equality in college sports is only for those of one gender? If you want to stand for equality, you got to do so across the board. If 95% of the college baseball population does not go further, why would baseball be more important? This is about education, the reason for my earlier comments about going to play proball out of HS (if drafted). You have no choice for football, one of the reasons why I would suppose that they get full scholarships, they MUST go to college first.




My points about Crew were, why do they get 20 full scholarships when baseball gets 11.7 and where did the reasoning come from to make Crew a College sport?

I have absolutely no problem with Women being able to get Athletic scholarships. My problem with Title IX however, is the criteria used to allot the number of scholarships and for what sports. If the idea was to bring Women's sports up to the level of men's sports (and I think it was) it should go by the same criteria used for Men's sports. Women's Crew is still a non revenue sport and for them to get 20 full scholarships is ludicrous. Geez! Men's Basketball doesn't even get that many and it is a revenue sport. I just feel that ALL NCAA sanctioned sports, should have the same % of scholarships allotted compared to the number of players that actually participate in game action.

As far as someone depending on scholarships to pay for education, I agree. We were right on track to have both kids' college paid for 5 years ago. The only problem is, the tuition has risen 10% per year over that time and my Wife and I lost a total of $80,000 in our Savings and Investment plans at work in the past year. Yep, stuff happens. We'll deal with it, but that really has nothing to do with whether baseball is being treated fairly compared to other sports. I think it isn't. That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it. cry
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Infield08:

No other sport at the NCAA level demands so much of its athletes than baseball. Consider this...


I don't necessarily agree with the above statement.
I hear that the hardest college sport to keep players eligible is in basketball, which is played November thru March. They spend more time traveling than playing the actual game.

Conditioning for all college sports is now year round.

Maybe someone more familiar with those sports has more knowledge and can speak up, but I don't think that college baseball is any more demanding than football or basketball.

Powertoallfields,
Rowing is not a sport at every school. I know they have it at Clemson (which is surrounded by a lake) but not some other woman's sports. I don't think that the NCAA cares what sport is played as long as distribution is provided. Didn't TitleIX force the NCAA to create the equality in scholarships? Wnder if that is tru, they would have bothered. The problem is that they took away scholarships in baseball9Not sure if tehy took away in othr men's sports). Obviously athletic departments went along with this, being that baseball is a non revenue sport. Who would you cut down on scholarships?

So who should you be writing that letter to?

Some baseball programs only roster 28-30 players. That means they can stretch the 11.7 further than 25% for each player, if they fully fund.
Last edited by TPM
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
So, TPM, if a college baseball team could generate enough revenue to fund 24 full scholarships, would you support that? How many schools would have to generate positive revenue for you to change your position? One more question, why does the NCAA keep all TV revenue generated from the College World Series when instead of splitting it with the participating schools? It does that for football and basketball.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
Most D-I football and basketball programs do not even fund themselves, much less than the other sports. At least not in terms of TV and ticket revenue vs. expenses. Sure, there are the high profile programs that do, but out of the 350 or whatever D-1 schools, those are the exception and not the rule.

But football and basketball do play a big role in attracting donors for the entire athletics department. The fact is that attending a college football game is not just attending a football game, it is a social event on a level the other sports have not and likely will never achieve. Keeping alumni feeling tied to the school is critical to overall fund raising.

As for why crew gets more scholarships than baseball, I suspect Title IX is the answer.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by powertoallfields:
So, TPM, if a college baseball team could generate enough revenue to fund 24 full scholarships, would you support that?


I stated originally no and gave one reason. Also no because most baseball programs need to rely on scholarship amounts to recruit against other programs. You might be surprised to find out that some top programs don't give out much, they don't have to, unless they need to get a player away from other programs. Baseball doesn't have all the bells and whistles that football or basketball has to sell a program.
Midlo is on the right track, the more successful the revenue sports, the more money is brought in by donations by alumni and sponsors. Football bowl winners get a nice piece of the pie. The more money, the better facilites they can build, which in turn makes for successful recruiting. I can give one example, the amout of money brought to UF by national championships helped to rebuild and enhance the baseball facilities. Better facilities brings better recruits.
BTW, I am under the assumption that many football players do not get full scholarships, go look at some rosters, you may find more than 80 or less than 80. We are under the assumption everyone gets the same thing, I would imagine that only the most talented, those expected to contribute more get full. Same might be for basketball. Not sure if they have stupilations like baseball as to minimum amount given, and many football programs have walk on players. Anyone know the answer to this?
I would assume that to be the same for every sport. The coach gives out what he feels someone should have.
I may be wrong, but I doubt the NCAA makes huge profits from college baseball when all of the accounting is done. What you see on TV with sold out games are the evening games and championship game, we played one day, early when the crowd was pretty thinned out. The same goes for baseball, the games viewed are regional games, not entire country. I would suppose the station and the companies broadcasting them make the most $$. I do not know if the winner gets $$, anyone know that?
Last edited by TPM
B BobbleheadDoll5,000+ posts
A poster pointed out that there were 19 colleges at D1 level that turn a profit. I have not checked that number but it sounds close.
Midlo points out the reason college sports are so important to a college. It draws funding and students. Football and basketball are great social events. Many BB programs offer tickets to those events to prospects they are trying to sign.
Campus ;life wou7ld be pretty7 boring without sports.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Good college bb sells seats, but very inexpensive and most taken up by boosters who get discounts for season tickets, you can attend a game for as little as 5 dollars. Those numbers can be deceiving in revenue. That's why so many teams strive for host regional berths, and many of those regional games are BID out to the NCAA. I think that I heard once that Clemson once bid 104K for a regional and the money back in return just about covered that bid.
On the other hand, 80-130K per football game brings lots of money. They even make tons of money selling tailgate tickets, very expensive to attend a college football game.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
BTW, I am under the assumption that many football players do not get full scholarships, go look at some rosters, you may find more than 80 or less than 80. We are under the assumption everyone gets the same thing, I would imagine that only the most talented, those expected to contribute more get full. Same might be for basketball.

There may be very few exceptions to the rule but a football/basketball scholarship at a fully funded school is 100% at the D1 level, if for some reason it is not fully funded I understand that the schoolys available are also 100%. I doubt in todays world, a D1 college could compete if it was not a 100% system.
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
This article was in today's paper:


KNOXVILLE — University of Tennessee officials are looking at ways to generate more academic funding from athletics as the university system struggles with a projected state funding shortfall of at least $66 million.

University president John Petersen has asked athletic directors Mike Hamilton and Joan Cronan to form a team to examine efficiencies in their departments, while UT trustee Doug Horne says the athletic departments should streamline to give more funding to academics.

The budget shortfall represents a 13-percent drop in state funding for the system. Petersen told the Knoxville News-Sentinel that his request to the athletic directors makes sense.

UT officials said the school is one of the few universities where the athletic department supports itself and contributes to academics.

Information from The Knoxville News Sentinel
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
quote:
By the way, no college athlete paid for my daughters nursing degree. I did.


Same here with my daughter/nurse. However there is a big difference in a doctor and a nurse.

I read your link about Myron Rolle/Rhodes scholar. Those are nice stories but few and far between. But you and I know the average IQ of Rhodes Scholars and the average IQ of athletes are different. We are comparing apples to oranges when we try to compare athletics to academics.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
quote:
BTW, I am under the assumption that many football players do not get full scholarships, go look at some rosters, you may find more than 80 or less than 80. We are under the assumption everyone gets the same thing, I would imagine that only the most talented, those expected to contribute more get full. Same might be for basketball.

There may be very few exceptions to the rule but a football/basketball scholarship at a fully funded school is 100% at the D1 level, if for some reason it is not fully funded I understand that the schoolys available are also 100%. I doubt in todays world, a D1 college could compete if it was not a 100% system.


I just looked at the roster for UF, 120 players listed. Maybe fully funded but not everyone can be getting 1 full scholarship.
zombywoofzombywoof1,000+ posts
Athletes are already getting compensated with a free education and other benefits such as equipment, access to training facilities etc and special tutoring, which is understandable due to the travelling and time dedicated to the sport. They're well taken care of.It's ridiculous to even suggest compensation (or a paycheck) if that's what the type of compensation being talked about for athletes..End of story.
Last edited by zombywoof
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
"If there is a baseball player on half an athletics scholarship and his coach has already given out all the scholarships up to the 11.7 allowed -- and if the student-athlete wants to get half an academic scholarship to increase his aid, he cannot accept it,'' Morgan said. "He has to choose between athletics aid and academic aid. Right now, academic aid counts towards the 11.7. There are student-athletes out there who are being forced to turn down this aid.''



Does anyone know if the above statement is true?
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
3 fingered glove or Oldslugger might know the answer.
There are rules regarding percentages of academic and athletic combined in scholarships one can be given. You also cannot accept more than the COA. I know in sons case we were told that because of the amount given for bb scholarship he couldn't get academic.

As far as I know, academic does not count in the 11.7.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
3 fingered glove or Oldslugger might know the answer.
There are rules regarding percentages of academic and athletic combined in scholarships one can be given. You also cannot accept more than the COA. I know in sons case we were told that because of the amount given for bb scholarship he couldn't get academic.

As far as I know, academic does not count in the 11.7.




The reason I asked was that I got it from this article.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?ContentID=16837
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
Let's see here.. Athletes get:

-Clothing
-Shoes
-Scholarship money (however much)
-Coaching
-Weight room facilities
-The opportunity to travel on someone else's dime

But they don't get compensated at all...


Meanwhile, you have student coaches, athletic training students, etc who are out there putting in the same hours for NOTHING. Keep crying please...
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Let's see here.. Athletes get:

-Clothing
-Shoes
-Scholarship money (however much)
-Coaching
-Weight room facilities
-The opportunity to travel on someone else's dime

But they don't get compensated at all...


Meanwhile, you have student coaches, athletic training students, etc who are out there putting in the same hours for NOTHING. Keep crying please...




My Nephew was a student manager for the University of Louisville basketball team and got a full scholarship.
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