Students allowed to play at other schools.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
...but they go to school because that's where they belong.

Okay, I'm not going to get into this debate any further than to say that is the single dumbest thing I've ever seen written on this site.

Explain... When my son played, if he stayed home, he couldn't practice or go to school that day. Why should some kid get around this by staying home all day, then be able to waltz on in to school for sports time?. Kids who don't go to school shouldn't be eligile to participate in after school sports.

Forgive my ignorance, but I am curious... how does FL and other states that allow this now manage things like attendance? In public school if you aren't at school that day you don't get to play in a game that night. I have homeschoolers on both sides of me (neighbors) and they frequently take "days off" which they are allowed to do as long as they have a certain number of hours of instruction during that week. I imagine the coach can't be the monitor of this as that would be a conflict of interest. Does the state provide an administrative service of monitoring the homeschool schedules(attendance).

How about grades? Do the homeschoolers have to submit grades of some sort from state approved testing in order to ensure the students are on equal footing with their teammates wrt education? We recently had a football team in this state get into trouble because of eligibility (grades) of a few students. They had to give up their playoff spot. How do states that allow this "open to all" sports policy manage elligibility issues with a home schooler? If they don't, couldn't one of those football players have decided to become a homeschooled student to remain eligible?

It doesn't affect this area, at all. Around here, home-schooling is more of a religious thing. Those parents don't want their kids mixing with mainstream kids, learning bad words and stuff like evolution... or baseball.

Oh, yeah, I forgot liberalism!

quote:

Originally posted by coach scotty:

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
The biggest issue is how do you enforce any standards? Or better yet what will the standards be when it comes to eligibility? How do you keep in check a parent who has a son that's won't do work in the classroom and is ineligible (or on the way to being ineligible) and all of a sudden is now homeschooled?

I would say they would enforce it the same way states do that have had these rules for years. Last I checked the state of Florida's HS sports programs haven't imploded.

Coach I can't answer your question because I don't know. But I can't see how there is enough supervision of these kids / parents who stay home - I may be wrong but I just can't see it.

But if this goes as bad as I think it will and you have tens of thousands kids staying home then it will be impossible to supervise them. If that's the case then there will be no turning back from this. I think Leftysidearmom has brought up and asked some great questions on this. I would love to know the answer to her questions and your's as well.

Maybe I'm crazy but it seems to me that the powers that be want high school sports to become rec league sports. Everyone plays, competition is kept to a minimum and everyone is happy.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

Maybe I'm crazy but it seems to me that the powers that be want high school sports to become rec league sports. Everyone plays, competition is kept to a minimum and everyone is happy.

I don't believe there is any intention of taking away the system of tryouts and/or the competition for playing spots if they do make the team. These players will still have to prove to the coaches that they can do the job for them on the field. But public school students also have to prove to their coaches that they can do the job off the field as well. The issues will most likely only be with players that have the skills to make the team and compete but also might be ineligible wrt attendance and/or grades.

One of the best things about high school sports is that it creates comraderie among kids at the school. School spirit. Seems to me that you lose this if kids who don't go to that school participate. It isn't a school team anymore.

If we don't care if I kid goes to a certain school in order to play there, why do we care where he lives? Why not just pick a team in his parents taxing area and play there? I mean, if you are in a city you pay taxed not for just a specific school anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
I pay taxes as well so why do I have to accept this? I feel as a taxpayer it's the wrong way to spend this money. So why is that wrong?

Because you do not meet the criteria to be a student. The offerings are for students. But you knew that.

quote:

This will end horribly for high school sports and probably all extracurricular activities.

Coach, this has been the law of the land for decades. Nothing too horrible has happened yet.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:

Explain... When my son played, if he stayed home, he couldn't practice or go to school that day. Why should some kid get around this by staying home all day, then be able to waltz on in to school for sports time?.

It sounds to me that you are reducing to this equity regarding rules about playing if a student is late or absent. Another words asking why my son is subjected to rules a homeschooler is not. I am not sure why you would care since your only concern should be that your son follows the rules and gets a good education. Worrying about what other kids might be getting away with should not be your focus imho.

Life is never going to be fair and/or equal. So just as a parent of a home schooler might be distressed about having to pay for school even though their child does not attend, they do it anyway and get on with what is best for their child.

Coach2709 points out that some of the kids he has seen that were homeschooled were socially inept. So the way I look at it, allowing homeschoolers to participate in organized sports is one way to give them more social interaction with other kids their own age. Presumably these kids will get more than just physical exercise, and the lessons learned from being part of a team can help build character. Other than an occasional abuse that might occur, I see it as a win win for both the kids and the school system.

quote:

Because you do not meet the criteria to be a student. The offerings are for students. But you knew that.

Come on Jimmy you don't expect me or others to just blindly pay taxes without having a say in how they are spent?

Vector you're right in that life isn't fair but why pass laws / rules just to make it more unfair on purpose? Life being unfair is that you want to take a certain teacher for a certain class but can't them due to whatever. That's unfair but to have an institution say "In order to be eligible to compete in sports you HAVE to be at school today.....except if you were at home and didn't get out of bed until 11 so you could watch the Price is Right".

Look I hope I'm completely wrong but I can't see this as working out as more and more states move to this.

quote:

Coach2709 points out that some of the kids he has seen that were homeschooled were socially inept. So the way I look at it, allowing homeschoolers to participate in organized sports is one way to give them more social interaction with other kids their own age.

But if they're socially inept in the classroom, what is going to cause the lightswitch to flip after the schoolbell rings and the kid turns from social inept to social butterfly?

It would seem that the socially inept kid would be better off going to school and learning to interact. They need to do it in school sports so why shouldn't they be in school? Keeping a kid home because he/she is socially inept seems like a weak argument for home schooling. There are plenty of social inept kids who go to school.

The only valid reason for home schooling is for a medical reason.

[quote]Pennsylvania allows home schooled kids to play sports at the school they would have attended. quote]

You can also play a sport not offered at your school at the closest school with that sport. A good friend of mine was the top golfer at our rival school (both public) because we didn't offer golf. He was responsible for getting himself to practices and home meets(?) and had to be on time like everyone else.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
...but they go to school because that's where they belong.

Okay, I'm not going to get into this debate any further than to say that is the single dumbest thing I've ever seen written on this site.

Explain... When my son played, if he stayed home, he couldn't practice or go to school that day. Why should some kid get around this by staying home all day, then be able to waltz on in to school for sports time?. Kids who don't go to school shouldn't be eligile to participate in after school sports.

Kids who are home schooled aren't just "staying home" because they want to skip school. On average, they are families who are dissatisfied with the public school system and feel that the home school environment more educational for them.

Home schoolers are not about forcing their way of life on others nor do they want to tag along with the masses because it's "where they belong."

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Because you do not meet the criteria to be a student. The offerings are for students. But you knew that.

Come on Jimmy you don't expect me or others to just blindly pay taxes without having a say in how they are spent?

Vector you're right in that life isn't fair but why pass laws / rules just to make it more unfair on purpose? Life being unfair is that you want to take a certain teacher for a certain class but can't them due to whatever. That's unfair but to have an institution say "In order to be eligible to compete in sports you HAVE to be at school today.....except if you were at home and didn't get out of bed until 11 so you could watch the Price is Right".

Look I hope I'm completely wrong but I can't see this as working out as more and more states move to this.

I think one of the assumptions some are making here is that these home school kids are waking up anytime they like, taking days off, and generally goofing of a decent amount of the time. Of the two families I know that home school, these kids are getting more hours of learning per day than you might imagine. Furthermore they are homeschooled by their parents who are tougher on them than a typical teacher would be. I have no clue how bright they are, but they seem educated and certainly have manners and the ability to socially interact with other people.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
But if they're socially inept in the classroom, what is going to cause the lightswitch to flip after the schoolbell rings and the kid turns from social inept to social butterfly?

It would seem that the socially inept kid would be better off going to school and learning to interact. They need to do it in school sports so why shouldn't they be in school? Keeping a kid home because he/she is socially inept seems like a weak argument for home schooling. There are plenty of social inept kids who go to school.

The only valid reason for home schooling is for a medical reason.

I never said they were socially inept, I just pointed out that Coach2709 said in his experience that some were. My point is evident if you read it closely.

As to you saying what are valid reasons for home schooling, just imagine how you would feel if others imposed their beliefs on you as to how to raise or educate your children.
My wife and I made sacrifices to be able to send our son to a private school despite paying taxes for a public education. I would have enjoyed getting a tuition tax credit that was being proposed several years back, but it never came to pass. Better yet not having to pay the portion of taxes for the school system since my child never attended.

If I were forced to send my kid to a public school because I could not afford a private school, I might have considered home schooling. There are numerous reasons I could give for feeling that way, but I would never think my way should be imposed on you or others on how to educate your children. Nor should you feel compelled to dictate how other parents choose to educate their children.
The bottom line is that it has been working here in Fl for some time now, to the benefit of both the children and the schools.

Let's not make this a debate on homeschooling. We'll never all agree on that one here.

The question is, should students outside of the public school in question be allowed to play sports at the school.

quote:

Originally posted by standballdad:
To me this is really simple. Anyone who pays taxes and contributes to the system is entitled to use the public system. Everyone here that thinks otherwise has the choice if they don't like it to send your kids to private school.

I am in agreement with this statement. My wife and I have 5 children, all of which were home schooled up until HS.

No social misfits and all good athletes.

In Florida, Homeschoolers have specific guidelines and testing that they must adhere to, and prove competency in subjects.

After reading through this thread I'm astounded at some of the ignorant stereotyping that is posted regarding home schooled students. Ascribing characteristics such as: inferior intelligence, social ineptitude, lack of accountability, laziness, and athletically deficient outsiders might enhance your own self-esteem but does nothing to help understand the real issue.

In Pennsylvania home schoolers by law, do have access to sports in the school district in which they live. And students from other districts that do not have access to a specific program at their school may play a sport at another school that offers it. We had a swimmer in the 50 free style win the state championship for our school and he was from an adjacent school that did not offer a swimming program. He was able to receive a full scholarship to Penn State University. His sister was also a state champion for our school and attended and swam for a DIII college, became an all american and competed in the Olympics. No can of worms, just equal opportunity for all tax payers.

A co worker of mine home schooled both his boys. His wife stayed home and they made it on one salary. Both boys were tested with the same assessments that the public school gave, at the same locations. They both achieved high school diplomas early and were taking college classes in what would have been their high school senior year. Both were very athletic and would have been valuable assets to any of the sports had they chosen to participate. Both are extremely successful and socially equal to or "superior" to the average public school graduate.

The stereotyping of an entire class of people is something this group of educated professionals should have shunned given the experience of the Irish, Jews, African Americans, homosexuals, females, Indians.................

Why is it necessary to create groups that are accepted and groups that are not? Baseball is a game for everyone that pays taxes in my back yard.

Thank you PA Dino, and other recent posters on this thread. I was going to chime in this morning about the lack of respect for home schooling families, but you covered that very well!

Home schoolers whom I have met, or whose admissions apps I have read over the years, have included some very bright, academically talented, socially quite mature, and yes even athletically gifted young men and women, taking a rigorous curriculum (often including on line college level courses, indepth critical writing, creative assignments in the arts, science research etc.) that simply were not available in their districts. Sure there are some 'socially inept' home schooled kids but gosh, last time I looked, our high schools had a bunch of those kids too. Come to think of it, so our towns and cities and workplaces, right?



Some very uninformed generalizations were made here, folks. I don't think OP intended this thread to go in that direction.

Happy 1st day of April all! Wish I could say it feels like spring out here but ......still hovering in the low 40s with a nice light sleet falling. Ugh. At least the Yankees won.

This discussion provokes many thoughts for me.

Members of my family have been involved in public education for 4 generations. It is something I believe is important to being able to maintain and improve the overall level of societal involvment and understanding. To that effect, I believe it is a societal duty, and one of the main roles of government, to levy taxes to provide the base level of education necessary to continue an informed and reasoning populace.

However, I struggle with the concept of some of the "rich" school districts, who through the provision of their own tax dollars locally, are providing levels of support at 5-10 times the poorer districts. It truly is a difficult situation.

I am all for private education as well. I believe it has its place, even including homeschooling, although I believe that should be limited. Then it becomes a matter of voluntarily paying for extras above and beyond the acceptable minimum.

I have a really hard time accepting interscholastic sports and activities as part of the required acceptable minimum for public education. I participated, my children participated, and I expect, if they ever come along, grandchildren will participate. I just don't see the need for massive gymnasiums, football stadiums, etc., as a requirement for what the mission of public education should be.

There have been many discussions over the years regarding the right/priviliege to participate in extra-curriculars. Generally, it has been a privilege to be able to participate. Why then, should it even be a function of the public school systems for interscholastic sports and activities? Why not make it a voluntary issue for those who wish to participate, and wish to directly finance those activities?

quote:

Originally posted by baseball17:
Why then, should it even be a function of the public school systems for interscholastic sports and activities? Why not make it a voluntary issue for those who wish to participate, and wish to directly finance those activities?

You make very good points. In the end, is it all worth it? Who knows? But, when kids are involved in their school, the results can be spectacular.

Check out this school in our league. It's one of the smaller student bodies- 1200. The school is noted for heavy emphasis on sports and activities. "You gotta do something." Well, they do.

Friday night football is a sight to see. The marching band has over 400 members, every year. Add football players and cheerleaders, and almost half the school will be there and ready for kickoff. At halftime, they cover the entire field. lol, last time they were here, I counted twelve buses... for the band! (notice- this school still plays on grass)

Strath Haven Marching Band

Would it really matter if there were home-schooled kids in the band, or not?

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Because you do not meet the criteria to be a student. The offerings are for students. But you knew that.

Come on Jimmy you don't expect me or others to just blindly pay taxes without having a say in how they are spent?

Vector you're right in that life isn't fair but why pass laws / rules just to make it more unfair on purpose? Life being unfair is that you want to take a certain teacher for a certain class but can't them due to whatever. That's unfair but to have an institution say "In order to be eligible to compete in sports you HAVE to be at school today.....except if you were at home and didn't get out of bed until 11 so you could watch the Price is Right".

Look I hope I'm completely wrong but I can't see this as working out as more and more states move to this.

I apologize, Coach, I misread your post. Of course you have a rght to your say. That's what school boards and state legislatures are for.

However, your premise that the world is going to hell in a handbasket over this issue will be a hard sell. This has been policy for decades without any significant problems.

Basically, if you have a school aged child, who has not yet graduated, he is entitle to everything a public school offers. Otping out of the classroom for an alternative school or homeschooling does not require one to opt out of band, sports, French Club or any other extracurricular activity. It's the law.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
...but they go to school because that's where they belong.

Okay, I'm not going to get into this debate any further than to say that is the single dumbest thing I've ever seen written on this site.

Explain... When my son played, if he stayed home, he couldn't practice or go to school that day. Why should some kid get around this by staying home all day, then be able to waltz on in to school for sports time?. Kids who don't go to school shouldn't be eligile to participate in after school sports.

Kids who are home schooled aren't just "staying home" because they want to skip school. On average, they are families who are dissatisfied with the public school system and feel that the home school environment more educational for them.

Home schoolers are not about forcing their way of life on others nor do they want to tag along with the masses because it's "where they belong."

That that is a decision that the parents made, as parents.

All decisions have consequences and one of them is that home schooled kids miss out on many of the after school activities that in school kids have. One of these is sports.

Sorry but I firmly believe that if you decide to home school your kid you lose the right to enter your kids in that high school's sports program.

I understand the issues with a sub par school but if a school is sub par as far as education then why all of a sudden is it ok for sports? Sorry but that assigns a double standard. Your school sucks but I want my son to play baseball there.

I have never heard of any school allowing a home schooled kid to play in the band, or be on the debate team, or work on the yearbook. Ultimately sports is an extra curricular acitivity that is tied to in school performance. With home schooling the tie to that performance is severed. Sorry but to wear a teams colors you should be a member of that school. I can understand and probably go along with playing for an in district school if your HS doesn't have that particular after school activity but that would be the only reason that I would let a kid go to another schools program for anything.

Like Jimmy says, in some places, it's been the law for a long time. Washington was the first state to pass this kind of legislation, ca. 1990. It's been the law here, for a long time, too.

The only home-school controversy I can remember was a girl in NJ that finished high school at home because she claimed to be ill. She was very bright. Her parents went to court because they felt she should be valedictorian of her class (she was tied with another girl for class rank, some speculated she got better grades at home.) The school district wanted no parts and named co-valedictorians that year.

quote:

Sorry but I firmly believe that if you decide to home school your kid you lose the right to enter your kids in that high school's sports program.

The US Constitution (First and Fourteenth Amendments) provide for the right to educate children outside the parameters of public government funded education. However, once a family decides to opt out completely from the educational aspects of the public school system, there is no US Constitutional Right to fall on when seeking participation in extracurricular activities such as sports. These are State granted privileges. Many states have upon consideration provided for opportunities to participate for homeschoolers realizing that homeschooled students can clearly benefit from sports in the same manner as any public school student. Since both are expected to be valued members of society it makes no sense to exclude them from the types of benefits this participation can provide.

This is a sample of legislation regarding gifting that privilege to homeschooled students:

quote:

24 Pennsylvania Statutes Annotated 13-1327.1(f.1)

(1) Beginning January 1, 2006, the school district of residence shall permit a child who is enrolled in a home education program to participate in any activity that is subject to the provisions of Section 511 including, but not limited to, clubs, musical ensembles, athletics and theatrical productions provided that the child:

(I) meets the eligibility criteria, or their equivalent, for participation in the activity that apply to students enrolled in the school district;

(II) Meets the try-out criteria, or their equivalent, for participation in the activity that apply to students enrolled in the school district; and

(III) Complies with all policies, rules and regulations, or their equivalent, of the governing organization of the activity.

(2) For the purposes of this subsection, the school district of residence’s program of interscholastic athletics, including varsity sports, shall be considered an activity and shall include all activities related to competitive sports contests, games, events or exhibitions involving individual students or teams of students whenever such activities occur between schools within the school district or between schools outside of the school district.

(3) Where the activity requires completion of a physical examination or medical test as a condition of participation and the school district of residence offers such physical examination or medical test to students enrolled in the school district, the school district shall permit a child who is enrolled in a home education program to access such physical examination or medical test. The school district shall publish the dates and times of such physical examination or medical test in a publication of general circulation in the school district and on its publicly accessible internet website.

(4) A board of school directors may adopt a policy to implement the requirements of this subsection. Such policy shall only apply to participation in activities and shall not conflict with any provisions of this section.

We can refer to a law such as this as "Equal Access"
legislation. The reason I posted the entire law is to point out the reason I believe any such provision enacted in your state will not "open a can of worms" or otherwise create undo havoc in your community.

At first glance one might think that home schooled families are being offered to "have their cake and eat it too."

However, a homeschooled student in order to participate must "reattach" him/herself to the very government/public entity which his Constitutional right allowed him to sever from. Meaning that he/she must meet all the same criteria as students in the school district, mus t meet the try-out criteria and comply with all policy, rules and regulations of both the school district and the athletic association in which they participate. You might say, "and rightfully so" and I agree.

But the simple participation in extracurricular activity at a pubic school by a homeschooler invites reliance on the "strings attached" that in theory most homeschooled families seek to avoid. The acceptance of participation in a government public funded program or sport would at least in theory if not in reality bring about rules and regulations that they sought to avoid in the first place.

Homeschoolers in large part would not trade their freedom for a sport experience. They will not give the government an opportunity to define new rules and regulations, and the very development of private homeschooled extracurricular activities would be negatively affected.

I believe it is unacceptable to simply exclude a group of persons from the freedom to chose when they have paid for their share of the cost.

All students are students and a society should welcome any opportunity to create character and better citizens through sport experiences.

Ok, here's another spin of playing sports at another school. In the state of Texas if the sport (lacrosse, hockey), is not offered at the school you are attending you can participate in that sport at another school that offers it within your district.

Several districts around here have multiple high schools. In these days of cost-cutting, I wonder if someone on the school board will present the idea to consolidate all teams into one. There would be less opportunities for all to play, but they'd be some pretty good teams.

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:
Several districts around here have multiple high schools. In these days of cost-cutting, I wonder if someone on the school board will present the idea to consolidate all teams into one. There would be less opportunities for all to play, but they'd be some pretty good teams.

Do you remember this situation in the opposite direction? Downingtown was split into East and West and Central Bucks East and West was split into East, West and South. From everything I heard the kids handled it better than the parents.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:From everything I heard the kids handled it better than the parents.

They often do.