style or substance (hype or get better)

regardless of where you play, on an elite team and/or on a team with with your friends, there is always room for improvement. Hopefully, in either case, the kids are getting the proper training to help enhance their skills. Where you play depends on the level of the kids skills and committment.

I think you ultimately want you kid to improve as much as possible. Many times that doesn't happen on the elite teams. Most play so many games, they don't practice. Many are "body collectors". If your kid isn't good enough, they don't improve him woith coaching, they just recruit a kid who can do the job.
IMO, put your kid with the coach and team that will improve his play. if he gets good enough, in high school he will be found, or maybe in showcases. If he is not good enough, it is more fun to play than to sit.

My answer is that competition and coaching would be paramount. I also think age is an important criteria. The younger the player, the more PT, the better. To a much lesser degree, with pitcher's, there is room for debate.

If your playing time is signifigantly enhanced while playing for a top coach like Deucedoc or Buddy Swift, against similar high level folks, then PT wins the day.

If, however the competition level is lower (can you say Norwood Blues?), then I'd rather (within reason) my son share time on a team with solid coaching and that play's the big dog's.

It has a lot to do with exactly what talent level a player is at. Many high level player's are at 80 games and more over a calendar year, not including Showcases etc. As they get older, they welcome a break in the schedule. These fellow's don't need the PT that another player, that is aspiring to the top level, will need.

soxnole,

what is the problem with Norwood??? are you saying here. the quality of player is less than that of the above mentioned?

soxnole, I think you just wrote a response because youlike to chime in on everything. Of course if you have a lot of playing time and it is for a good coach you should go there. That wasn't the question.

Were you just looking for a way to take a shot at Norwood?

Not at all. Facts...not shots.

I'm saying the quality of the competition does not match up to the other top programs in Chicago and the midwest.

I'm also saying that although Rich is an excellent "between the lines game coach", he does not match up with programs like TT, the Indiana Yankees, and the Illinois Orioles to mention a few. These programs have coaching staffs that can improve a players performance at every position. They also play the big dog's.

In the end, it will be interesting to see if Norwood can continue to get the great players they have in the past. Imo, the newer, bigger, better programs will grow until Norwood plays a more competitive schedule or.....strenghthens its staff...or both!

soxnole,

Well you are feel to voice YOUR opinion, I believe it is real cheap shot to mention a specific organization.

Hey there! Let's not get into a pissing match. Soxnole has a always been highy opinionated and will probably always be. He does have a level of experience that some don't. Actually my question more to the point: What has more recruiting value, being on one of the Elite teams and having that on your resume regardless of how good you may be (style), or counting on your ability to get known (substance)?

boy, lets get back on track and stop takinf shots at everyone and/or certain teams. everyone has a right to their opinion, and that is just what is is, an opinion. regardless of the team and/or the coach (some better than others), the player still has to be committed to do things on there own.

breaker. you certainly have the right to your opinion.

My post is based on some very 1st hand knowledge of all the programs mentioned. If my post allows even 1 player to spread his wings and explore a better opportunity, it will have been worth it. Over time I have helped Norwoods recruiting efforts whenever I could.

If you have a different opinion then back it up. There were NO mistakes in what I posted, opinion or otherwise.

soxnole and breaker,

get over yourselves, stop the pissing and moaning of how wonderful you both are. it is not about you and you opinions.

I say substance over style. Your kid eventually has to play good ball or what good does getting noticed do him? Plus, I don't think just because you are on a team of studs, someone is going to think a kid is worth recruiting. At some point you have to put up or shut up. So better to learn to play well, and keep working. You'll get noticed.

quote:

What has more recruiting value, being on one of the Elite teams and having that on your resume regardless of how good you may be (style), or counting on your ability to get known (substance)?

A bit of a rant...

No one is going to recruit you or scout you just because you are on the Indiana Yankees or the Midwest Blazers, etc.

Pro scouts are looking for projectable tools and college guys are looking for kids that can play...PERIOD!

They don't care about your travel ball "resume", who you played little league for, or what your HS stats were.

In fact this is one of the big problems I have with certain groups. They get kids to play for their travel team by telling the kid, "If you play for us you're guaranteed to get a scholarship." Sounds crazy but it happens...and people buy into it.

Good travel teams provide opportunity, nothing more.

Our mission (as told to the kids) is to provide the OPPERTUNITY to play against top competition and in top events, at top-notch facilities, with other top players, in front of scouts and college coaches. That's it. No promises of scholarships or draft picks.

Come and play against the best, with some of the best, in front of people who may give you an opportunity.

There are other organizations that do a good job of this. Some do not.

As for teaching the game, I teach during the game (it's all I've got in the fall) and I think it's the best way to learn the nuances of the game at it's highest level. Practice is very, very important for younger players, as they need to develop and practice the skills of the game.

BUT...for the type of kid that generally plays for our organization (and many others), practice is not as important.

I think many people (parents and players) are looking for a magic wand in the form of lessons and private instruction, when what most kids need (in our area especially) is to play against better competition.

A private session to help iron out a minor problem is fine but to constantly go to a private instructor in the hopes that you'll get a scholarship is in many cases frivolous.

Someone with a lot more knowledge of the game than I have once told me, "If you can hit, you can hit...period. Good hitters can roll out of bed and hit."

I truly believe that. You learn the game by playing the game, not practicing it.

Players in our region can run, throw, and to some degree hit with anyone in the country. Where we sometimes fall behind are the little things that come with playing 200+ games a year against top competition that the FL, GA, TX and CA kids get.

The biggest deficiency that I see in Upper Midwest kids is lack of baseball instincts and knowledge of the game. I think that comes in part by TOO much emphasis on practice and private lessons and not enough time spent actually playing the game.

I can show you 100's of kids who have manicured "lesson produced" swings who can't hit a lick.
Pitchers with perfect mechanics who can't get anyone out.
Perfectly conditioned, toned athletic physiques, that couldn't hit a beach ball with a canoe paddle.

What I'm saying (in this very long post) is go and play! Play as much as you can against the best competition you can find! It will help you more than anything you can do for yourself in the long run.

End of rant...

Nice post.

Tom Matsie would agree 100%.

blazer25,

I could not have said it any better...Great points....

exactly

WoW you just blew every belief I ever had.
Can't disagree more about the prctice aspect. Perfect practice will make you a better ball player period. Practice is where you also get in shape as well. My son's teams have prcticed 3 days a week and played at least 120 games in the summer & fall. We never missed a practice unless it was unavoidable.
They are mandatory. Our coaches generally coach to win the game at hand and will not teach during the game. Screwup and you will hear about it later and work on the problem.
There is a theory for every point of view but My son would not play for a team that did not practice.
The Team you play for can have a huge difference on who notices you. Great teams get invited to the big tournaments. That is where you play the best teams. Always play for the best team you can.

yea that was a great point

Blazer25 Amen!

Michael Jordan, best practice player. Tiger Woods, hired new coach to change his swing to get better. Hank Greenberg, taking batting practice until his hands bled when he came back from WWII to get his sroke back. Jon Scheyer from GBN taking 500 shots a day and getting a scholarship to Duke. What jerks, wasting their time practicing.
Matsie does teach fundamentals and coaches nuance in practices and games.
Practice makes perfect.

My point was that Matsie uses games to practice a team sport at least 95% of the time, once the season begins.

No one in thier right mind would be against one on one specialized work outs.

Blazer

I fully agree with you--an "elite" team will give the kid the proper venues to show his skills BUT there are no guarantees in baseball just as there are no guarantees in life.

We too spend more time on the subtle nuances of the game than actual practices per se. Kids who play on "elite" teams have talent but many lack the undertsanding of the little things in the game of baseball that help you separate yourself from others of equal talent.

I had better call my son's college coach and ask him why he is spending all hours on practice.
I am surprised at the guys who agree with the "RANT". You do learn to really play in the game. No argument there. The timing ,the pressure etc.
The game and I don't care what level you are at is where you execute the things you practice over and over while you are maintaining shape and bond with you teammates. Baseball is a game of repetition and perfect practice gets you ready to handle the game situation.
None of our elite teams promise pro careers or scholarships. This year almost 700 Canadians are playing US college ball. Many of them outstanding performances. More being drafted every year. I strongly believe it is because they practice, prcatice practice and go out and execute in highly competetive tournaments and games. Most people are aware of the Ontario Blue Jays, Team Ontario Inc and the Canadian Thunderbirds just to mention a few. These teams practice all winter in large facilities doing skills, play action and strength training. 2-3 days a week and continue right through the season outdoors on a lighter schedule.
The statement that if you can hit you can hit. Well I can't even comment on that.

quote:

Michael Jordan, best practice player. Tiger Woods, hired new coach to change his swing to get better. Hank Greenberg, taking batting practice until his hands bled when he came back from WWII to get his sroke back. Jon Scheyer from GBN taking 500 shots a day and getting a scholarship to Duke. What jerks, wasting their time practicing.

BBdad,
#1 Most of your examples include basketball, and golf...when and where did I say anything about basektball?

Besides the Hank Greenberg story is urban legend. How long do you think it took Teddy Ballgame to get his stroke back when he returned from the war? My guess is 2-3 swings; that man could roll out of bed and hit. (Which is exactly my point)

Baseball is a game that can't be simulated in practice. Yes the mechanics of hitting and pitching and fielding can be repeated over and over but you can't simulate true situational baseball. That's what northern kids lack, repetitions of LIVE situational baseball, not the mechanics of the game.

Again, I'm not saying you shouldn’t practice. What I'm saying is given the choice to workout with a private instructor or play games say in fall ball, the latter (for kids in our area) will help them 1000 times more than the former in the long run.

quote:

I had better call my son's college coach and ask him why he is spending all hours on practice.

Bobblehead,
While you have him on the phone ask him if he'd rather play games or practice if given the choice. Also ask him why does he bother sending his kids to summer college leagues when he could just as easily hook them up with a private coach for the summer.

quote:

Baseball is a game of repetition and perfect practice gets you ready to handle the game situation.

Absolutely incorrect...practice gets you ready to handle practice situations, not game situations.

These are 2 very distinct things. Yes you can practice mechanics in practice. You can not practice live situations.

An example from college ball since you seem to have some experience there...

Why is it that northern team travel south to play early in the year? Wouldn't practice be just as good for them?

Have you ever seen an early season college game? Ugly...especially for teams from this region. How could that be? They've been doing all that wonderful practice, year round...in the gym...outside? Shouldn't they be ready to go out in play?

Now fast-forward 2 months...go and watch the same team. Surprisingly more polished, better baseball. I wonder why? Must have been all the extra practice in between...hey?

quote:

Originally posted by blazer25:

As for teaching the game, I teach during the game (it's all I've got in the fall) and I think it's the best way to learn the nuances of the game at it's highest level. Practice is very, very important for younger players, as they need to develop and practice the skills of the game.

BUT...for the type of kid that generally plays for our organization (and many others), practice is not as important.

I agree 100% with the first above paragraph. If you are not teaching during the games, you are missing a huge opportunity.

But to say that practice isn't important is missing the entire point of coaching baseball. There are so many skills to be learned (and then continually improved), that practice is essential. If all teaching is left to game play, there is not enough opportunity to improve skills.

During the course of any 7 inning game, there are only 21 outs (defensive opportunities to be shared by the entire team) and 3 to 4 at bats per player. That's just not enough reps to improve the skills of the game.

Mike F

Bobbleheaddoll.

You and others seem to be reading something extra into these posts.

We are simply saying that once a high level player reaches the "elite" team level, the more game experience he gets, the better. It's BETTER than practice. That doesn't mean practice is BAD!

If he's 12 he'll need more practice than if he's 13..and so on.

For most kids, especially Canadian's, practice is imperative, in order to cement fundamentals.
As an example, Matsie has BP and bunting practice...seperately prior to EVERY game. These things are mandatory and I would call them "game preperation", not practice in the traditional sense. Baserunning drills are also an everyday rep that many teams fail to do.

Why do I say "especially" Canadian's?

Because of the lack of baseball tradition's and early sound coaching that is not nearly as available up in your neck of the woods.

I also question that Canada has 5% of the college playing population. In D1, I'm sure it's not even 3%. ACC/SEC/PAC10/Big 12...probably not 2%.

Bottom line is that unless you have a large staff, unlimited time constraints and a very high level of attention from the player's, your better off playing a game that is "real". "Game situations" are just that.

When you phone your college coach, tell him to play more intrasquad games and to practice less, thats what the really big boy's in MLB and D1 do.

None of this precludes taking 100 ground balls a day if possible. It doesn't preclude using a high level hitting coach with private lessons. These excersizes should be in addition to the TEAM playing games, not instead of playing games.

Gotta go with Blazer on this one. I have seen way too many kids who hits great in the cage or hits all of his spots in the pen but can't get a hit or an out in a game. I also think some coaches tend to overpractice. To link basketball and golf in with baseball as far as practice goes makes no sense. The goal is always ten foot high and the ball is never moving in golf. I think we all know what happens with a baseball when it is pitched.

quote:

None of this precludes taking 100 ground balls a day if possible. It doesn't preclude using a high level hitting coach with private lessons. These excersizes should be in addition to the TEAM playing games, not instead of playing games

Sox...I could not have summed it up better.

We really are all agreeing. You need to practice and play games. the original question was "style over substance" and should a kid sit on a good team or play on a mediocre team. I assume that Blazer would want the kid to get game action and not sit on the bench. I think the kid needs to play also. If he is not good enough to play on a top team, he needs to practice to get better. What am I missing?

Sox there is no woods where I am from. This is a concrete jungle around Toronto. There are more pro level trainers, scouts per sq inch than you could imagine.
Our top Elite teams beat college teams. @ years ago OBJ beat Connor State which was the #1 D1 Juco that year. I can not give you percentages but we have to try a lot harder to get noticed by top schools in the states. We are expensive to bring in. Now we even have a very low limit on Visas to play pro ball.
I think you would be surprised at our facilities. The NABF world series was contracted to be played at our ball park for 10 years but the guy who ran the park got tossed.
I do agree that playing is the most important thing if you had to give up 1 to do the other.
I have seen some ugly games agter coming out of the indoor practice period. We won our games.
My son has never gone south at the break as I saw that a waste of money. Nothing but a fun holiday. He always comes out and has agreat game to start the season. In 04 threw a perfect game in 05 8ks in 3 innings against the top team in our league who had spent a week in florida playing against HS and colleges.
It is cold here and we play right into late OCT. Usually take a few trips into the states in the fall before going indoors into a brand new double field S***r dome. Our coaches include ML scouts and coaches. My son took 4 lessons from the head pitching coach for the Jays now with the Twins. $25 dollars each lesson and he was 15. I was allowed to video the lessons. Well I had a video camera hidden in my hand. Got all the drills mechanics and cmments. There were 12 MLB coaches at that clinic from as many ML teams. Probably the best $100. I ever spent.
No body would argue which is more important. It is playing the game but I would put my money on the teams that do both.
Believe me when I say we have hosted the top Elite teams in America at our stadium. Our facilities are top notch and the coaches are as well.We host MLB scouting camps College camps withy coaches from all over the US. We play in the Skydome OOPs the Rogers Place. I wisk I knew how to put a photo of our stadium on here.

BBDad,

To a certain degree yes we are agreeing...but...

I don't think it's an important part of an elite travel team to have practices. I think it's vastly more important to travel and play games against top competiton...which was my original point.

I also disagree that

quote:

If he is not good enough to play on a top team, he needs to practice to get better. What am I missing?

Depending on his age that is kind of the misnomer that I am trying to dispell. Not all kids will ever be good enough to play on certain teams...ever, no matter how much practice. Certain kids have abilites that are given, they just are able to play the game.(again to be able to roll out of bed and hit, etc) I get frustrated when parents and players think that lessons and practice are a magic wand that will "take a player to the next level".

I guess it's the scout in me that sees these abilites in kids (or lack of) no matter how practice polished they are or are not.

quote:

Our coaches include ML scouts and coaches

Bobblehead,

Did you ever stop and think that your team's success is due to the fact that these guys (your coaches) are able to spot players that have tools or can play the game and not because of how much you practice?

Say what you will...but give me 9 guys that can really "play" the game vs 9 guys who practice real hard and I'll roll off the bus and beat you 9 times out of 10.

Part of my question has been answered, but not the whole question. IMHO there are scads of very good players, and a few really good ones and even most elite teams have that kind of mix. When it gets to be 18 and sometimes 17 Travel the teams are more stacked because there are fewer teams, but sometimes at these ages and at younger ages I think most teams have that mix. Some teams have and some teams claim to have "high profiles" that give you more exposure, but if you are sitting on the bench what does that do for you? Are you better off playing somewhere that may not have quite as high a profile believing that if you perform, you will be seen? My guess is that a combination of High School, Travel and Showcases all are factors and as long as you are on the field you will get noticed. Eric Marshall, an '05 from Barrington got a deal with TCU, despite to my knowledge playing only HS and Legion Baseball.

Ha Ha give me my pick of 9 guys and you might think twice about getting off the bus.

Fbd - my experience is limited to the 05 class but I'd say the enormous majority of those kids who got scholly's did so with good performances or showing tools at showcases (Stevenson/Harvey Foster, UIC, Area Code in Naperville etc.)
Their names became known from performing well with hs and summer teams but they were rarely seen during hs/summer games. Son's hs had 3 kids on college's radar and his elite summer team had at least 7 d1 signees and a number of juco & d111 kids. In 3 seasons of varsity and 3 seasons of travel these kids played 95% of their games in front of mom,dad, and girlfriends. When there were college coaches it was often a handful from the state we were playing in.
This is not a knock on travelball in any way as it is vital to development and I know many teams here in Il are doing a ton to get their kids seen. But it can't match for exposure some of the showcases which had 15 or more mlb teams and 80 or so schools.
I'd tell a kid to get on as good a travel team as he can that will give him a chance to develop & play - then play well enough in hs/summer to get a showcase invite. At the showcases you have a large,captive audience of coaches looking at you and performance/tools stand out big-time. Being on a great hs or travel team will do nothing for you in and of itself - it all comes down to being seen and performing well as many times and in front of as many scouts as possible.

Blazer...I hear what you are saying, and I agree up to a point. Either a kid has big time talent or he doesn't. I think some coaches can develope talent. Some kids with thalent get bad fundamentals as kids, maybe from dads that don't know what they are doing, and then can get helped by good coaching. Joe Crede said he turned his season around when he was injured, looking at tapes with Greg Walker. It isn't 100% talent. Players take BP and ground balls every day. they throw every day. why do they do this? They are in the majors, so they can roll out of bed and hit according to you. I think oyu underestimate practice and coaching as an integral part of a players development. But you are right about this...a kid without the talent can have the best coaching and practice all day and it won't get them to the next level.

I think Blazer think practice has no value at the 17-19yr old level. Because they are talented thyey will maintain their skills with perfect mechanics and do all their cut offs etc without practice. Pitchers do their picks with no practice. This is a game of faiure and perfect practice cuts down on failure.
Our coaches ahve always talked as play goes on in a game but they expect you to know what you are doing when you hit the field.
Even great pitchers need a pitching coach and when they start getting hit they turn to the pitching coach for help.
I always go to a pro game an hour and a halh early to watch the teams practice or if you like get ready for the game. We had a single A team in our city and they used to have practices. Not as intense as ours but still practice.
Every coach / scout told me a pitcher showld throw 60 throws every other day(long toss). That is practice.

I don't think I read any threads where anyone said don't practice. Just that playing time against good competition is irreplaceable via practice. And as Soxnole has said more than once, games can be practice in the sense of good coaching in game situations. I don't know anyone who is a good/great player that never practices, but over the years involved in baseball I have seen many of the kids who can light up the JUGS gun indoors in the wintertime, who aren't good pitchers and have seen kids who are monsters in the cages against a 90 MPH machine but can't hit the change up or the curve ball not to mention the fastball with late life. When my son pitches, the imput he gets from the coaches as he comes in from the dugout is as valuable as anything. In the winter he learned about throwing the ball, in the summer he learned to pitch.

quote:

When my son pitches, the imput he gets from the coaches as he comes in from the dugout is as valuable as anything. In the winter he learned about throwing the ball, in the summer he learned to pitch.

Thank you FBdad...thank you!