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Substitution Question

JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
We finally had a little excitement.

DH is slumping. Coach decides to let the player being DH'd for hit and sit the DH. Umpire (this is a playoff game) says, no this would be an illegal sub. Umpires discuss and ruling stands, "Coach you can't let him hit".

Coach decides to let DH hit.

Next time around, umpires have done some checking with AIA official at game and decide this IS legal and allow the substitution, which is made (3B hits for DH).

My question, could the coach protest at the point of the first attempt at substitution? What would he protest unless he made the sub even though it was called illegal and then the sub was called out for being illegal? It would seem he'd need something to protest and if he didn't actually make the sub, all he has is an opinion to protest.
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M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by mrumpiresir:
I think the coach should have let the defensive player bat. If the umpires call an out for an illegal sub, the coach would now have a valid protest. I agree he'd need something to protest by actually making that substitution.


Nope.

He has a valid protest at the point the substitution is disallowed. In fact, that is the way he needs to do it--by substituting after being told it is illegal (albeit wrongly,) he is running the risk of other consequences.

How about this: On the third charged defensive conference, PU makes a mistake and thinks there have been three already, and tells the manager he needs to change his pitcher. Manager has two options: protest or refuse to pull the pitcher. What's going to happen in each situation?
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
Matt

As for the protest I have no idea because I've never coached in a state that allows protests.

As for the other one I'm pretty sure I'm going to get ejected because he's probably not going to allow any new pitcher a realistic warm up period. They will get the 8 pitches and I'm not going to be happy he screwed up and let him know it.

How would you prove the PU messed up the number of conferences for a protest? He's the one who keeps track of visits on the lineup card.
M mrumpiresir10+ posts
Matt,
I think we are saying the same thing. I'm saying the coach should force the issue and attempt to have the defensive player come to bat. Isn't that what you are saying?

If the umpire tells the coach beforehand that he cannot do it, and he doesn't do it, then can that really be appealed?

The coach has a much stronger case if he attempts to have the defensive player bat and it is disallowed at that point.
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by mrumpiresir:
Matt,
I think we are saying the same thing. I'm saying the coach should force the issue and attempt to have the defensive player come to bat. Isn't that what you are saying?


No, quite the opposite. He needs to make the protest at the time he is told that it is illegal.

quote:
Originally posted by mrumpiresir:
If the umpire tells the coach beforehand that he cannot do it, and he doesn't do it, then can that really be appealed?


Yes.

quote:
Originally posted by mrumpiresir:
The coach has a much stronger case if he attempts to have the defensive player bat and it is disallowed at that point.


No, because he very well might be ejected.
M mrumpiresir10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Matt13:
quote:
Originally posted by mrumpiresir:
Matt,
I think we are saying the same thing. I'm saying the coach should force the issue and attempt to have the defensive player come to bat. Isn't that what you are saying?


No, quite the opposite. He needs to make the protest at the time he is told that it is illegal.

quote:
Originally posted by mrumpiresir:
If the umpire tells the coach beforehand that he cannot do it, and he doesn't do it, then can that really be appealed?


Yes.

quote:
Originally posted by mrumpiresir:
The coach has a much stronger case if he attempts to have the defensive player bat and it is disallowed at that point.


No, because he very well might be ejected.


Ok- I agree the coach could protest when he is told it would be illegal, but I still think it would be a stronger case for him when it is actually denied. Unless the coach becomes rude or obnoxious, an ejection would be hard to justify and once the protest is upheld, it would be a bad situation for the umpire.

Again, what kind of playoff umpires don't know this rule?
MU Mr Umpire100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Matt13:
quote:
Originally posted by mrumpiresir:
Matt,
I think we are saying the same thing. I'm saying the coach should force the issue and attempt to have the defensive player come to bat. Isn't that what you are saying?


No, quite the opposite. He needs to make the protest at the time he is told that it is illegal.

quote:
Originally posted by mrumpiresir:
If the umpire tells the coach beforehand that he cannot do it, and he doesn't do it, then can that really be appealed?


Yes.

quote:
Originally posted by mrumpiresir:
The coach has a much stronger case if he attempts to have the defensive player bat and it is disallowed at that point.


No, because he very well might be ejected.

Agreed.

He does not want to push it. Reason is he may be ejected and lose the appeal. What has he gained?

Also, it is a misapplication of the rule as it has been explained to him. It is no different than any other one. The umpire explains his ruling so the coach knows why the ruling was made and then protests on the grounds that the umpire misapplied the rule.
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
For what it's worth, my son was the DH being (mercifully) hit for. I was yelling at the top of my lungs that coach protest the game.

He decided not to with a 4-0 lead in the third. My logic was to protest with the 4-0 lead and at least have another shot at winning the game with the 4-0 lead, given this was obviously not right. I thought he should force the issue by making the sub anyway.

Coach decided to let things happen and we won 4-3 with the tying run on second. I have no cuticles left but otherwise all is well...

...and Jr pitches tomorrow against the #1 seed in 5A-I in the loser's bracket tomorrow.

For the record, I don't know if AZ actually allows coach's protests. I didn't get a chance to ask the coach after the game.
Last edited by JMoff
yawetagyawetag100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by JMoff:
For the record, I don't know if AZ actually allows coach's protests. I didn't get a chance to ask the coach after the game.


Funny. According to AIA's Bylaws ( http://www.aiaonline.org/about...stitution_bylaws.php ):
20.11.5.2 Regular season protests, if any, will be handled as indicated in the current edition of the National Federation Baseball Rules Book.

Here's the Fed Rule:
4-5. It is optional on the part of a state association as to whether protests are permitted. When allowed, protests are permitted regarding rules one through nine only. When protests are submitted to organizations which do allow the filing, such protest must be submitted using a prescribed procedure (10-2-3i).

In effect, Arizona has made circular logic with their protest procedures. They say to refer to the Fed rule, but the Fed rule says refer to state rules. I love it.

If I were an official (or coach) in Arizona, I'd be getting clarification.

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