Being born in October by me makes you a young grad and you will be 17 when you start college. Anyway, yes the outlier will get plenty of early opportunities but if they do not progress, I've seen move to CC ball and washout stories.
CollegebaseballInsights posted:PitchingFan posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:RJM posted:I have a philosophy on outliers. The son of a former college and/or pro athlete is more likely to play college sports than when any kid’s birthday falls on the calendar.
Many of the kids with the "genetics" are priced out of the market in at a early age. note, cost to train, travel team, etc. is north of $5k to $10k range. Thus the required outlier hours (10k) is hard to obtain.
Disagree. The ones with genetics shouldn't have to pay to play. Everyone is looking to add a stud to a team at all ages and normally those kids do not have to pay to play. I know guys that have gone into the tough neighborhoods to find the kid playing little league that is a stud and was willing to pick him up, pay his costs, and take care of him, even taking them into their home so that argument that a lot of people want to add is wrong. Now, the argument can be applied to the average kid who does not have the money to get better but not the stud.
You can disagree, that is your right. What percentage have the perceived genetics and what tough neighborhoods are you talking about? With respects to picking up his cost, you mean having a 2nd or 3rd team within a specific age group (to absorb the cost) that don't receive the same training as the people on the 1st team.
You have not been in the travel baseball and basketball world I've been in if you do not believe that a player with great genetics, the studs, don't get their way paid free. I'm not saying all but many. I've been in Georgia, Tennessee, Missouri, and South CArolina and played a lot in Florida. There are always teams that go into tough neighborhoods looking for the players who are advanced or pure athletes and pick them up to play on their teams at no cost.
2022NYC posted:Being born in October by me makes you a young grad and you will be 17 when you start college. Anyway, yes the outlier will get plenty of early opportunities but if they do not progress, I've seen move to CC ball and washout stories.
In a majority of states being born in September or October makes a kid among the oldest in his class. Where my kids went to school the deadline for a grade was August 31.
The AAU basketball circuit shoots down the concept of travel sports being country club sports. Kids from the ghetto are traveling the country playing basketball. The kids are talented. Sponsors pick up the cost.
CollegebaseballInsights posted:The only thing that I could add, is that from 13u (8th grade) until 17u (11th or 12th grade) is a very humbling experience, the only lock will be the locks on the doors of one's car.
Focus on the Academics.
Depending on your home state, for example in 2019, there were 64 freshman listed positional players from the state of NJ playing D1 baseball. Of the 64 players, 13 played in their home state.
Great stuff love the data thank you.
Regarding your 13-14 year old...
It's great to have a high level long term plan but I would think the immediate goal would be to have success on the high school team? Maybe earn a spot on the JV or V team as a Frosh, depending on your HS enrollment number and competition level? Figure out where he fits among the local talent?
Lots of travel programs make lots of promises. It is easy to get caught up in that cycle. Sometimes folks end up jumping from team to team every year looking for the right fit. We did. I found that a lot of travel programs have about 50% kids who can afford to be there but maybe don't have the talent. The other 50% who have the talent are there "on scholarship". Remember it's a business - the program needs to be profitable and successful - however they measure success, whether it's number of kids recruited to college or number of wins at the 12U elite level or whatever.
The most important thing for your son is playing at the highest level competition he can handle - whether that's Legion ball or Travel ball or whatever - and keep having fun. If's it's not fun he's going to burn out. A lot happens to a young man between 13 and 18. Jobs, cars, girls, other interests and distractions. Support him no matter what.
RJM posted:The AAU basketball circuit shoots down the concept of travel sports being country club sports. Kids from the ghetto are traveling the country playing basketball. The kids are talented. Sponsors pick up the cost.
AAU Basketball is very different than travel baseball. Ask Sonny Vaccaro about the problem of AAU basketball. Note, we've understood about travel basketball since the 1980s. Again, the cost is being absorbed by either the 2nd and 3rd team or the 9u to 12u teams.
PitchingFan posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:PitchingFan posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:RJM posted:I have a philosophy on outliers. The son of a former college and/or pro athlete is more likely to play college sports than when any kid’s birthday falls on the calendar.
Many of the kids with the "genetics" are priced out of the market in at a early age. note, cost to train, travel team, etc. is north of $5k to $10k range. Thus the required outlier hours (10k) is hard to obtain.
Disagree. The ones with genetics shouldn't have to pay to play. Everyone is looking to add a stud to a team at all ages and normally those kids do not have to pay to play. I know guys that have gone into the tough neighborhoods to find the kid playing little league that is a stud and was willing to pick him up, pay his costs, and take care of him, even taking them into their home so that argument that a lot of people want to add is wrong. Now, the argument can be applied to the average kid who does not have the money to get better but not the stud.
You can disagree, that is your right. What percentage have the perceived genetics and what tough neighborhoods are you talking about? With respects to picking up his cost, you mean having a 2nd or 3rd team within a specific age group (to absorb the cost) that don't receive the same training as the people on the 1st team.
You have not been in the travel baseball and basketball world I've been in if you do not believe that a player with great genetics, the studs, don't get their way paid free. I'm not saying all but many. I've been in Georgia, Tennessee, Missouri, and South CArolina and played a lot in Florida. There are always teams that go into tough neighborhoods looking for the players who are advanced or pure athletes and pick them up to play on their teams at no cost.
Actually, I have been in both travel baseball (South Jersey) 2007 - 2014, I understand the numbers and the dynamics. . With respects to travel basketball, have known and lived around NYC Riverside Hawks and Bronx Gauchos, know many still heavily involved. Again, who is absorbing the cost, it will come from 2 different channels: for profit arm or their non-profit arm via younger teams absorbing the cost or their 2nd or 3rd team. Not a very hard model to understand. I understand there are more details.
2022NYC posted:Being born in October by me makes you a young grad and you will be 17 when you start college. Anyway, yes the outlier will get plenty of early opportunities but if they do not progress, I've seen move to CC ball and washout stories.
I agree. That is the main point. Studs at 12 and 13 are few and far between. What position is he a stud?
CollegebaseballInsights posted:RJM posted:The AAU basketball circuit shoots down the concept of travel sports being country club sports. Kids from the ghetto are traveling the country playing basketball. The kids are talented. Sponsors pick up the cost.
AAU Basketball is very different than travel baseball. Ask Sonny Vaccaro about the problem of AAU basketball. Note, we've understood about travel basketball since the 1980s. Again, the cost is being absorbed by either the 2nd and 3rd team or the 9u to 12u teams.
I understand travel basketball. But the net is regardless of the sport if you’re talented you will play regardless of economics. Travel baseball just allows emptying the wallets of pretender’s (who should be playing rec ball) parents.
One weekend day my team (I coached) had three hours off between games. I was watching part of a 9u game. I chatted up parents. Their kids were going to play major college ball. Why? Because the program sends its players D1. I didn’t have the heart to tell them on the current 17u team only four had survived since 13u.
CollegebaseballInsights posted:PitchingFan posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:PitchingFan posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:RJM posted:I have a philosophy on outliers. The son of a former college and/or pro athlete is more likely to play college sports than when any kid’s birthday falls on the calendar.
Many of the kids with the "genetics" are priced out of the market in at a early age. note, cost to train, travel team, etc. is north of $5k to $10k range. Thus the required outlier hours (10k) is hard to obtain.
Disagree. The ones with genetics shouldn't have to pay to play. Everyone is looking to add a stud to a team at all ages and normally those kids do not have to pay to play. I know guys that have gone into the tough neighborhoods to find the kid playing little league that is a stud and was willing to pick him up, pay his costs, and take care of him, even taking them into their home so that argument that a lot of people want to add is wrong. Now, the argument can be applied to the average kid who does not have the money to get better but not the stud.
You can disagree, that is your right. What percentage have the perceived genetics and what tough neighborhoods are you talking about? With respects to picking up his cost, you mean having a 2nd or 3rd team within a specific age group (to absorb the cost) that don't receive the same training as the people on the 1st team.
You have not been in the travel baseball and basketball world I've been in if you do not believe that a player with great genetics, the studs, don't get their way paid free. I'm not saying all but many. I've been in Georgia, Tennessee, Missouri, and South CArolina and played a lot in Florida. There are always teams that go into tough neighborhoods looking for the players who are advanced or pure athletes and pick them up to play on their teams at no cost.
Actually, I have been in both travel baseball (South Jersey) 2007 - 2014, I understand the numbers and the dynamics. . With respects to travel basketball, have known and lived around NYC Riverside Hawks and Bronx Gauchos, know many still heavily involved. Again, who is absorbing the cost, it will come from 2 different channels: for profit arm or their non-profit arm via younger teams absorbing the cost or their 2nd or 3rd team. Not a very hard model to understand. I understand there are more details.
I didn't address who is paying the bill. My point is that the studs, genetic freaks, get the opportunity to play which is the discussion. The who pays is different in every situation. Some organizations have corporate sponsors or individual sponsors who take care of the best players. Some pay for the best with the rest. My point has never been that is right who pays but the fact that so many say they don't get the opportunities but it is not true. The best can find places to play. I have said that on here for years. The problem is the average kid who doesn't have the money can't find places to play, train, or get better in most situations. You are arguing the fact that it is not fair for others to pay but my argument is the fact that they get a chance in most situations. I think the difference in baseball and basketball is where the money comes from and the expectations back to those people once the athlete makes it. In baseball, normally the money trail is not as obvious and there are very little expectations of payback in any form. They just want to be the best normally for the name or for the prestige it brings their kid who is on the team with the studs.
RJM posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:RJM posted:The AAU basketball circuit shoots down the concept of travel sports being country club sports. Kids from the ghetto are traveling the country playing basketball. The kids are talented. Sponsors pick up the cost.
AAU Basketball is very different than travel baseball. Ask Sonny Vaccaro about the problem of AAU basketball. Note, we've understood about travel basketball since the 1980s. Again, the cost is being absorbed by either the 2nd and 3rd team or the 9u to 12u teams.
I understand travel basketball. But the net is regardless of the sport if you’re talented you will play regardless of economics. Travel baseball just allows emptying the wallets of pretender’s (who should be playing rec ball) parents.
One weekend day my team (I coached) had three hours off between games. I was watching part of a 9u game. I chatted up parents. Their kids were going to play major college ball. Why? Because the program sends its players D1. I didn’t have the heart to tell them on the current 17u team only four had survived since 13u.
Agreed. Many of our pretenders on the "B" team had better HS careers, have actually gone further than the studs on the "A" Team from a college and MLB perspective.
PitchingFan posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:PitchingFan posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:PitchingFan posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:RJM posted:I have a philosophy on outliers. The son of a former college and/or pro athlete is more likely to play college sports than when any kid’s birthday falls on the calendar.
Many of the kids with the "genetics" are priced out of the market in at a early age. note, cost to train, travel team, etc. is north of $5k to $10k range. Thus the required outlier hours (10k) is hard to obtain.
Disagree. The ones with genetics shouldn't have to pay to play. Everyone is looking to add a stud to a team at all ages and normally those kids do not have to pay to play. I know guys that have gone into the tough neighborhoods to find the kid playing little league that is a stud and was willing to pick him up, pay his costs, and take care of him, even taking them into their home so that argument that a lot of people want to add is wrong. Now, the argument can be applied to the average kid who does not have the money to get better but not the stud.
You can disagree, that is your right. What percentage have the perceived genetics and what tough neighborhoods are you talking about? With respects to picking up his cost, you mean having a 2nd or 3rd team within a specific age group (to absorb the cost) that don't receive the same training as the people on the 1st team.
You have not been in the travel baseball and basketball world I've been in if you do not believe that a player with great genetics, the studs, don't get their way paid free. I'm not saying all but many. I've been in Georgia, Tennessee, Missouri, and South CArolina and played a lot in Florida. There are always teams that go into tough neighborhoods looking for the players who are advanced or pure athletes and pick them up to play on their teams at no cost.
Actually, I have been in both travel baseball (South Jersey) 2007 - 2014, I understand the numbers and the dynamics. . With respects to travel basketball, have known and lived around NYC Riverside Hawks and Bronx Gauchos, know many still heavily involved. Again, who is absorbing the cost, it will come from 2 different channels: for profit arm or their non-profit arm via younger teams absorbing the cost or their 2nd or 3rd team. Not a very hard model to understand. I understand there are more details.
I didn't address who is paying the bill. My point is that the studs, genetic freaks, get the opportunity to play which is the discussion. The who pays is different in every situation. Some organizations have corporate sponsors or individual sponsors who take care of the best players. Some pay for the best with the rest. My point has never been that is right who pays but the fact that so many say they don't get the opportunities but it is not true. The best can find places to play. I have said that on here for years. The problem is the average kid who doesn't have the money can't find places to play, train, or get better in most situations. You are arguing the fact that it is not fair for others to pay but my argument is the fact that they get a chance in most situations. I think the difference in baseball and basketball is where the money comes from and the expectations back to those people once the athlete makes it. In baseball, normally the money trail is not as obvious and there are very little expectations of payback in any form. They just want to be the best normally for the name or for the prestige it brings their kid who is on the team with the studs.
Agreed. I've seen both. Most of the 12/13u quote, unquote studs in the organization that we participated didn't pan out. The perceived studs (12/13u) that won 97% of their games, blocked those that projected better but were late bloomer by maybe 2 years. . Some that weren't considered studs, left the organization at 14u and 15u, played American Legion, High School, had their own training and are in the show or are close to the show. Note, I'm talking specifically about South Jersey and parts of Philly, but the story are consistent in other areas in the Northeast. Depends on who you talk to.
Ours was different. On youngest son's 6-8 year old kid pitch team, yes we were one of those, has every kid except two still playing college or pro ball, 2 playing D1 football instead of baseball but still the same. On youngest son's next team that was together from 9-14 there are 1 pros, 2 P5, 3 D1 mid major, and 2 NAIA. Other 3 could have played but chose not to. The studs are still studs from 9 year olds. On my middle son's team that was nationally ranked for years from East Tennessee there were 7/11 that played D1 baseball or were drafted out of HS. 1 still in MLB and 2 still in MiLB. 3 others coaching HS or college ball today. Studs are still studs and 1 that was not is now, just grew into his body over time. He took thin tall frame and made it work with arm motion. I know it is not the same everywhere but I have found that the studs in travel ball at an early age are the studs later. I do not count the big kid who grew early and has bad mechanics and can hit a waist high fastball a stud so that may be the difference. A stud is the kid who can pitch, not just throw hard, and hit with good mechanics, and field the ball good.
CollegebaseballInsights posted:RJM posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:RJM posted:The AAU basketball circuit shoots down the concept of travel sports being country club sports. Kids from the ghetto are traveling the country playing basketball. The kids are talented. Sponsors pick up the cost.
AAU Basketball is very different than travel baseball. Ask Sonny Vaccaro about the problem of AAU basketball. Note, we've understood about travel basketball since the 1980s. Again, the cost is being absorbed by either the 2nd and 3rd team or the 9u to 12u teams.
I understand travel basketball. But the net is regardless of the sport if you’re talented you will play regardless of economics. Travel baseball just allows emptying the wallets of pretender’s (who should be playing rec ball) parents.
One weekend day my team (I coached) had three hours off between games. I was watching part of a 9u game. I chatted up parents. Their kids were going to play major college ball. Why? Because the program sends its players D1. I didn’t have the heart to tell them on the current 17u team only four had survived since 13u.
Agreed. Many of our pretenders on the "B" team had better HS careers, have actually gone further than the studs on the "A" Team from a college and MLB perspective.
I’m talking about kids who should have stayed in rec ball. They’re parents paid for travel ball due to some delusion or just so the family could pound their chest and claim, “ My kid plays travel.”
Every kid on my 13u team played college baseball at some level. The one that didn’t played college basketball. But I passed on the 5’ 10” 13u stud with the 5’7” father. I chose the 5’2” athletic kid with 6’2” father..
RJM posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:RJM posted:CollegebaseballInsights posted:RJM posted:The AAU basketball circuit shoots down the concept of travel sports being country club sports. Kids from the ghetto are traveling the country playing basketball. The kids are talented. Sponsors pick up the cost.
AAU Basketball is very different than travel baseball. Ask Sonny Vaccaro about the problem of AAU basketball. Note, we've understood about travel basketball since the 1980s. Again, the cost is being absorbed by either the 2nd and 3rd team or the 9u to 12u teams.
I understand travel basketball. But the net is regardless of the sport if you’re talented you will play regardless of economics. Travel baseball just allows emptying the wallets of pretender’s (who should be playing rec ball) parents.
One weekend day my team (I coached) had three hours off between games. I was watching part of a 9u game. I chatted up parents. Their kids were going to play major college ball. Why? Because the program sends its players D1. I didn’t have the heart to tell them on the current 17u team only four had survived since 13u.
Agreed. Many of our pretenders on the "B" team had better HS careers, have actually gone further than the studs on the "A" Team from a college and MLB perspective.
Im talking about kids who shoukd have stayed in rec ball. They’re parents paid for travel ball due to some delusion or just so the family could pound their chest and claim, “ My kid plays travel.”
Every kid on my 13u team played college baseball at some level. The one that didn’t played college basketball. But I passed on the 5’ 10” 13u stud with the 5’7” father. I chose the 5’2” athletic kid with 6’2” father..
Ok. you are moving the goal post. Let's stick to baseball, again our 2nd and 3rd teams didn't get the same instruction as the 1st team (studs). Some of the parents saw the writing on the wall with respects to what they deemed a "stud". Players moved to other organizations, received the instruction they needed and surpassed the "12u/13u studs". A player from our 13u 3rd team, is now a prospect in a MLB organization.
Again, in my humble opinion, there are many players with skillsets, apply smart hours at certain times enhances those skills.
Here is a simple question, how do you define a 12/13u stud? Is it based on projection? Is it position dependent? E.G. a position player (quick hand/ eye coordination, quick twitch muscles, lower half stabilization.
As for basketball, brother is 6'6" (1990-91 #7 field goal percentage in nation), son is 6'4", can't play, didn't put in the work, but focused on academics to be an engineer.
I’m not moving the goalposts. I’m establishing my misinterpreted point. There are a lot of kids playing travel who never should have left rec until they washed out of the game in high school. But their parents put them in travel and pound their chests their kid plays travel. A lot of travel is nothing but expensive rec ball quality play.
My son played LL and a travel team in a Sunday DH league geared towards advancing the skills of our league’s potential all stars. I coached. I played college ball. I also coached out of college.
The 13u USSSA team I put together was essentially an all star team of our eighteen team LL district. I made a list of twenty players and secured thirteen of them. Someone else was doing the same thing. The benefit I had in recruiting was our all former college players, two former pros coaching staff.
I targeted players I thought had potential to be quality high school players. I wanted to coach them on how to get there physically, mentally and skills wise. I passed on The Meal Ticket (name his dad gave him). The Meal Ticket was a LL legend. He threw 75-78. He never lost a LL, LL all star or CYO game. He was hitting balls to the roof tops of the homes across the street behind right field. The Meal Ticket was all strength and no baseball skills. He was out muscling a small field against kids who were almost all smaller. Meal Ticket washed out of baseball when he was cut from his high school program soph year.
I chose three kids who were 5’2”, fast as hell and very athletic with quality baseball skills. The shortest father of the three was 6’1”. All three of these kids became high school multi sport stars. They all grew to at least 6’2”.
After the first year I dropped three kids for attitude. I picked up three kids whose fathers chose the other team the first year. They got sick of daddy ball and switched to my team. I added three, mostly pitchers the following year for 16u. Every one of these kids except the basketball player played college ball. The basketball player was the center fielder on a state championship team. He could have played college baseball. He could have been an even better baseball player. But his focus became about being the best basketball player he could be.
My son and three other players moved on top a 17u team when they were sixteen. A new baseball facility owned by a couple of pro scouts picked up the rest of the team (they were establishing teams) for another year of 16u before they moved up the following year.
CollegebaseballInsights posted:Here is a simple question, how do you define a 12/13u stud? Is it based on projection? Is it position dependent? E.G. a position player (quick hand/ eye coordination, quick twitch muscles, lower half stabilization.
Everybody's "stud" definition is different. The best 12U/13U players I saw had speed, hands that rarely missed a baseball (never struck out), and a chip on their shoulder as they've been passed over for the guy that hits it 400ft but strikes out half the time. My oldest son played with a couple "pesky" guys like this through 17U, and they just would not allow themselves to be struck out. Give me a dozen of those kids, and you'd never hear from me again.
RJM posted:I’m not moving the goalposts. I’m establishing my misinterpreted point. There are a lot of kids playing travel who never should have left rec until they washed out of the game in high school. But their parents put them in travel and pound their chests their kid plays travel. A lot of travel is nothing but expensive rec ball quality play.
My son played LL and a travel team in a Sunday DH league geared towards advancing the skills of our league’s potential all stars. I coached. I played college ball. I also coached out of college.
The 13u USSSA team I put together was essentially an all star team of our eighteen team LL district. I made a list of twenty players and secured thirteen of them. Someone else was doing the same thing. The benefit I had in recruiting was our all former college players, two former pros coaching staff.
I targeted players I thought had potential to be quality high school players. I wanted to coach them on how to get there physically, mentally and skills wise. I passed on The Meal Ticket (name his dad gave him). The Meal Ticket was a LL legend. He threw 75-78. He never lost a LL, LL all star or CYO game. He was hitting balls to the roof tops of the homes across the street behind right field. The Meal Ticket was all strength and no baseball skills. He was out muscling a small field against kids who were almost all smaller. Meal Ticket washed out of baseball when he was cut from his high school program soph year.
I chose three kids who were 5’2”, fast as hell and very athletic with quality baseball skills. The shortest father of the three was 6’1”. All three of these kids became high school multi sport stars. They all grew to at least 6’2”.
After the first year I dropped three kids for attitude. I picked up three kids whose fathers chose the other team the first year. They got sick of daddy ball and switched to my team. I added three, mostly pitchers the following year for 16u. Every one of these kids except the basketball player played college ball. The basketball player was the center fielder on a state championship team. He could have played college baseball. He could have been an even better baseball player. But his focus became about being the best basketball player he could be.
My son and three other players moved on top a 17u team when they were sixteen. A new baseball facility owned by a couple of pro scouts picked up the rest of the team (they were establishing teams) for another year of 16u before they moved up the following year.
We are talking the same thing with a little nuance. Did you have one team per age group or multiple? Again, the 3rd team had players than might have been deemed rec at 12/13u but had better HS, college and now MLB.