Summer Team Returning Money?

JMO, but the team has no obligation to return any of your money and you have an obligation to pay the remaining balance. When you paid a partial payment of the team fees that in and of itself was your contract. Teams establish a budget with the understanding that X number of players will be on their roster. Most teams that I have ever been associated with will release players from a contract (if the player is even required to sign a contract) per the families request but they do not ever return any of the money. If the coach is able to find a replacement player for your son he may give you some type of refund.

As a former head coach of a program and now just a parent, I agree with CBG. The down payment guaranteed your son a spot on the team. By leaving now you've created a hassle for the coach unless he has a waiting list. If the coach is a nice guy he may return your money if he finds an adequate replacement.

Just doesn't feel right. Especially now because instead of being supportive of my son (the kids) he is talking smack behind his back and my son is getting malicious texts from the players. And it's for 2010 he hasn't gone to any practices, workouts, games, etc.

in August, my son had an invitation to play with one team and the 2009 coach talked to the potentially new coach and then all of a sudden my son's invitation went away. (this was even before any money was paid) He finally found a high-level ball club to play for and the coach is very upfront about non-refundable fees, etc.

I'm just now learing, after 14 years of youth baseball, how political and icky things can get!

This just leave a terrible taste in my mouth and I wish the coach was more honorable then he's being. $3,000 is a lot of F&*$&%^ Money!

You plunked down 3k without a bailout clause... what if he'd have ruined his ACL playing dodgeball at school?

Well, $600. I was kind of looking at the big picture. $3,000 for each player, 20 kids on the roster. 3 teams. He can afford to give me my $600 back.

I would totally understand this if we were into the season. It's still Fall of 09 for crying out loud.

I don't want you to all think I am one of "those moms". Like I said, 14 years of youth baseball, thousands of dollars later,and a few ****** coaches in between. This is the first money issue. We have been in a couple situations before in the last 14 years where we never asked for money back due to injuries, disagreements, etc.

I'm just having a hard time with just throwing money away. And people not being honorable. The guy won't even talk to me, how honorable is that?

quote:

Originally posted by DLP:
Just doesn't feel right. Especially now because instead of being supportive of my son (the kids) he is talking smack behind his back and my son is getting malicious texts from the players. And it's for 2010 he hasn't gone to any practices, workouts, games, etc.

in August, my son had an invitation to play with one team and the 2009 coach talked to the potentially new coach and then all of a sudden my son's invitation went away. (this was even before any money was paid) He finally found a high-level ball club to play for and the coach is very upfront about non-refundable fees, etc.

I'm just now learing, after 14 years of youth baseball, how political and icky things can get!

This just leave a terrible taste in my mouth and I wish the coach was more honorable then he's being. $3,000 is a lot of F&*$&%^ Money!

I don't get this, you paid 3K in advance for next summer?
3K in my bank makes me more money than 3K in his bank, why does he need so much money in advance?

Seems to me, there might be more to this than your side of it, coaches don't go around talking smack to other coaches and players.

DLP,

Are you happy with the 2010 summer team?

Do you think your child will benefit from playing for the 2010 team coach?

Do you think your child will benefit from playing with the 2010 players?

If yes then the cost of that good decision was 3K.

I think the only way that coach owes you your money back is if he cut/uninvited your child from 2010 play.

The rotten texting is ridiculous and should be stopped immediately by shutting the texting down for a week, not replying, or reporting the texting to authorities (school and-or city/county)...No child should be harrassed.

TPM - I need to make this clear, $3000 total. I only paid $600 so far (only...) Yes, I'm sure that the 2009 coach has his side of the story. But truly, not much to tell. Honestly, I think my son was his best player and he really didn't want to lose him. 2009 coach told me that he was building this team around my son. To give the 2009 coach the benefit of the doubt, I think he really liked my son a lot and he is taking this very personally. When he shouldn't. I have told him endlessly that I think he is a great coach and he has taught my son a lot. Bottom line, this other team is just a better fit, that's all, nothing more, nothing less. Any way...he should just be reasonable and do thing my way...jk.

Playfair - I think you are right! The texting is bothering me more than my son. If my son new I was here, he probably wouldn't tell me anything anymore.

Thank you all for your comments. Kind looks like I'm just out $600. Unless I take him to small claims...God I just don't want to go there.

It sounds like you made an oral contract to have them take your son onto the team at a fee of $3,000.

What you're missing here is that you are the one who made the commitment and broke it. It's not a question of who can afford what. Once you make the deal, you have to make good to them on it, either by going through with it or by paying them enough money to even things out.

It's possible they could end up netting more than the $3,000, if they find a replacement player and they don't incur a big cost in recruiting him. If that were to happen, you might be able to force them to pay back some or all of your $600.

But it's also possible they don't replace your son, in which event a court could conceivably rule that you still owe them the $2,400 balance.

So, if all they want is to keep the $600, you might count your lucky stars, instead of acting like they are some kind of villains.

As for the texts, that is lamentable. But people who give their word and break it do tend to accumulate a lot of talk behind their backs. And if you are in the habit of breaking your word, considering yourself blameless, and referring to the other guys with public profanity, I don't wonder that other people talk ill of you behind your back.

quote:

Originally posted by DLP:
... And people not being honorable. The guy won't even talk to me, how honorable is that?

I'm sorry, you can't play the ethics card here. It's a sliding scale always meant to reinforce the argument of the person telling it.

The coach could counter with, "She took a spot on my roster and then backed out after we had tryouts, how honorable is that?"

You have every right to walk away, but understand what goes along with that, you are walking out on the coach and the team and the $600.

The rest of the stuff, the smack talk and texts, that superfluous garbage.

You made a decision to go a different direction with Junior for the betterment of Junior, move on, move forward, close the door behind you. It is your actions, not the coaches actions, that caused the financial loss...He's acted honorably, and lived up to his end of the bargain all the way.

Good luck to you and Junior in your future endeavors.

Also,

Imagine you were running a team and holding tryouts/making cuts. Two players are neck and neck for a roster spot. You lean towards Player A.

You then learn that A has previously broken a commitment to another team.

You might still prefer A on his merits, but you fear that if you cut Player B, you will lose B forever, only to have A welsh on you later on.

What would be the most rational decision to make in this situation?

If you don't say, "Cut A and keep B", you're kidding yourself, because that is exactly what anyone in that position would do.

Midlo Dad,

I'm not certain your reply deserves my attention. Your response is kind of mean. I could post all the details online, but I AM NOT vicious and I don't want to call attention to this guy.

I thought this was a venue for respectable conversations. So far I have had great experience. I may or may not agree with what is said to me, but people have been respectable.

I'm offended that you say breaking my word is a habit. You don't even know me.

dlp
you did kind of jump in the shallow end, with both feet. ouch.


if i were you i'd take the high road. call the guy, ask him if he were to find a replacement, would he see his way clear to refund some or all of your money. can't hurt.

Thank you 20dad. I think that is a good idea.

Yeah ouch. Why does it always take so long to learn stuff???

Maybe one day my son will make millions of dollars and he'll give me my $600 back... Wait a minute, should be more than that

One lesson to learn here is when making a major purhcase ($3000 being a major purchase) always asked about the refund policy.

quote:

I wish the coach was more honorable then he's being. $3,000 is a lot of F&*$&%^ Money!

Let's review:

1. You broke your deal and left the guy looking for a replacement

2. You then said HE was the one who was not honorable

3. You resorted to use of profanity early on

4. Other people are "mean" if they point these things out to you.

I would respectfully suggest that you look at your own conduct here as if someone else were doing it to you. Then apply the Golden Rule.

funny that this is brought up. Because I actually did ask him at one point, what if my son doesn't play next year and he said "we'll work something out" Hmmm, hard to swallow, but I guess I don't have much choice. Like Playfair said we're very happy with the 2010 choice. I suppose best now to just walk away.

Last year before college, whole new set of issues I suppose.

Midlo,

You said "Other people are "mean" if they point these things out to you"

Nope, just you. Have a great day.

quote:

He can afford to give me my $600 back.

......

I don't want you to all think I am one of "those moms".

When I had my own team the $700 dollars came out of my pocket when I couldn't find an adequate replacement. When I called all the top kids I didn't take they were committed to teams. So don't think the coach can just afford it. I could afford it. But why should it come out of my personal pocket?

And if you read all the posts you are being "that" mom. 20 has the solution. Ask the coach if he finds a replacement to please refund your money and leave it at that. Keep in mind of the coach doesn't find an adequate replacement he has to either hit up parents for more money or eat $3,000. That's the other side of the picture.

My personal advice is shut up in public and don't say a word about the coach. There are two sides to every story. Regardless of what you think of the situation (and you're wrong) the coach may be very well respected in the baseball community. And it's a small community. You don't want your son to be bypassed on future teams because of his PITA parent.

Actually, we're now in early October 2009. If there truly is no chance to replace your son, which I doubt, your money is gone. But if a contract is routinely signed, but not yet signed for 2010, you have a good shot of getting your money back, and in any event, the coach has a duty to mitigate his damages, which means make a reasonable effort to replace your son to lessen the damages.

(I plead guilty to possessing a license to practice law.)

DLP:

For what it is worth, I would return the money. I have organized and run many, many high-level teams. It is not difficult to find good players. In fact, my experience has been that there are more players than spots available.

Forget the phone calls. If I were you, I would write the former coach a letter, explain the situation and ask for a refund. If you get it, great. If not, no big deal (at least publicly).

But the bottom line is that this guy has more than enough time to replace your son and the money and, if he is any good as a coach, it should not be difficult.

I am surprised at the responses you have received here. I agree with you that they come across as mean -- and for what, I just don't know.

Best of luck.

Thank you Especially Jemaz, hokione, 20dad and Playfair.

I was just looking for advice. RJM, This may be a public sight, but I am being very careful about being anonymous for myself, my son, and the coach who's business practices I question. Not only on this sight, but in my small community as well. Like I said, never had to deal with this type of issue before. Just needed some help.

I think I'll take be taking the advice of Jemaz, if it doesn't work, I'll let it go.

I am happy to be of help. By the way, I will add one more thing: If the coach chooses not to return the money, suggest to him that he use it to reduce the fee for a player who could not otherwise afford to play. Then, the money will at least do some good. And, if he has a 501c3 organization set up, you might get a tax deduction for a charitable donation.

quote:

Originally posted by jemaz:

I am surprised at the responses you have received here. I agree with you that they come across as mean -- and for what, I just don't know.

I can sum it up with...

Her portrayals of herself as the victim of a dishonorable coach...neither of which turns out to be true.

Honesty is not a feel good emotion.

quote:

Originally posted by DLP:
Midlo Dad,

I'm not certain your reply deserves my attention. Your response is kind of mean. I could post all the details online, but I AM NOT vicious and I don't want to call attention to this guy.

I thought this was a venue for respectable conversations. So far I have had great experience. I may or may not agree with what is said to me, but people have been respectable.

I'm offended that you say breaking my word is a habit. You don't even know me.

$3,000 is a lot of F&*$&%^ Money!

DLP... I see you mention this as being a venue for "respectable conversations"... that it is, however you being fairly new here, seem to have forgotten that. When posting early on while describing how much money $3000 is, was not respectable?

Quite frankly, you are startng to sound like one of those moms, and the language

NEVERMIND!

I'm a bit surprised at the responses on here. I don't think DLP has represented herself all that well on here, but as a coach who runs a large travel ball club (4 teams from 14u through collegiate, 70+ players annually)I honestly can't understand why he would not return the money this early, unless they had some sort of dispute. If he's running a quality club, finding a good player to replace this young man won't be a problem. If, however, he's a guy who is in it for the money first, and players second, then perhaps people realize this and he can't just find people to pay his substantial charge so easily.

I am occasionally faced with situations such as DLP describes, and unless we've had other issues, refunding money was never an issue. We're not a high expense club like the one she describes, so it really hurts us to send money back, but I think that if you're putting the boys first, you keep that in mind and send the money back. If you're good enough at what you do, you'll have more players who want to take the departed players spot to choose from.

DLP, I'd definitely recommend you take "The High Road" in your discussions with the coach. If he's a man of integrity, you'll have better luck with him that way than if you get in the gutter.

CPLZ:

Interesting conclusion. I just don't see it.

By the way, I also think $3,000 is way, way too much for summer baseball. Somebody is making a lot of money or not managing the finances very well.

speaking of 'those moms'.. i once had a 'country club' mom who decimated my team by recruiting 3 of the 4 best players with all types of empty promises... for the most part the moms who made the decision (and in this case there weren't any dads who cared)they just went so they could rub elbows with the rich and famous of our little county.

I'm off topic here i know, but I also know how that coach feels when his best players are recruited away.

sidebar: I would return the money and try to find a players that was happy to be a part of our program.

What bothers me here is, DLP didn't come on here asking if she was right or wrong, or what she should do. She already "knew" the coach had "a legal obligation", so she was right and he was wrong. That justified calling him dishonorable and starting with the (mock) profanity.

As the saying goes, what you know may not be so. Actually in the situation set forth, the legal obligation was hers, not the coach's.

It's one thing if you misunderstand a situation and make an honest mistake. If you do that, but then apologize and try to set things right, most people will forgive and even respect you for it.

It's quite another thing when you are so certain you are right that you ignore all indications to the contrary and immediately go on the attack against the person you have left in the lurch. The goal of the original post, after all, was not to entertain doubt about right and wrong, but merely to ask for help devising a strategy to get her money back.

I don't really care if the person doing this says I'm mean. I've been called a lot worse, and survived.

What isn't getting understood here is that DLP maligned someone for doing nothing more than standing his ground on the phone in the face of what was more than likely a lot of garbage about her knowing her rights and yada yada yada. And then got upset because the recipient of that phone call (a) terminated the call instead of continuing to hear the junk, and (b) told someone else about it.

Why, the nerve of some people! Didn't he know it was his job as a coach to take abuse and like it?

But, Midlo, you don't really know any of that. You are making a lot of assumptions that the coach is right. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but the fact is, with this much time before next summer, there is little reason not to return the money. We are talking about the mother of one player here. I doubt the coach has to fight with her to make his point.

In fact, the classy thing for him to do -- regardless of what she might have said (and which we do not know) -- is to return the money. Perhaps $600 is a lot of money for this particular family.

As for a player changing his mind the fall before the following summer, I just do not see the big deal. This not only is not professional baseball, it is not even college baseball.

It's also worth noting that she has made 12 posts to your more than 3000. I don't intimately know the etiquette of this site and I have been here since 2002. I am sure she is far, far less familiar with the particular culture of highschoolbaseballweb. I would like to think that this community would welcome nearly any Mom who chooses to post here, especially when it is nearly the first time.

And then there is the $3000 fee. Wow.

DLP deserves better than we have given her.

She deserved a more unemotional response from us.

DLP, move on. Kid is in a better place. You have learned. 600. is a bit of money but if the kid is in a better spot then it was worth it.

Bottom line .... KID.

Coach may have ordered uni, league fees, etc.... If you kid was marquis then the coach may also lose players and be out a lot more than 600.

Baseball is tough when 20 kids have to be in concert with eachother financially and physically. I do feel for the coach here. But no player is irreplaceable and he has time.

Without villifying you (as you dont deserve it) just move on.

My best advice is to move on with class and only postive things to say about the former coach and team.

Baseball is a small world. Elite baseball is even smaller. You never know what hs/travel coach will coach college... college coach will coach minors, minor coach will coach major, major coach will be broadcasting.

You must remain classy throughout.

quote:

Originally posted by playfair:
My best advice is to move on with class and only postive things to say about the former coach and team.

Baseball is a small world. Elite baseball is even smaller. You never know what hs/travel coach will coach college... college coach will coach minors, minor coach will coach major, major coach will be broadcasting.

You must remain classy throughout.

Very Sage Advice here, epecially if you son has aspirations of continuing to play at the next level...

Jemaz,

I didn't assume, but I did suspect. If you go back and read my first posts, I did not so much attack her as suggest that there might be cause for her to review whether she had contributed to the problem. Note my use of the word "if".

The responsive name calling has pretty much confirmed my suspicions, though.

I do think a lot of coaches would go ahead and return the money. Others would grumble all the way perhaps but still do it.

But others will feel challenged if someone immediately launches into attack mode, and even if they previously would have been inclined to refund the money, such a situation would get their backs up and eliminate any desire to be the nice guy, not wanting to look like they had caved to bullying.

I am also intrigued by the suggestion that the coach is responsible for whatever teenage boys might say in their snarky text messages. DLP seems to assume that they are repeating things the coach said. Having dealt with many a 13/14-year-old boy in my day, I don't think that's a safe assumption at all. A very high percentage of boys that age are fully capable of being snarky without prodding. And what goes on in texting these days would often make parents blanche if we paid any attention to it. (Though I agree that the better practice is, not to.)

But overall there seems to be an itchy trigger finger pointed towards this coach, in a situation where a softer and more apologetic tone was called for. When you say, "We've decided to go to another team," some coaches will take that like you've left them at the altar -- an indication you think they and their team are not good enough for you. So you risk that there is an exposed nerve right off the bat. Then you start talking about "my rights", etc., and next thing you know things have turned ugly. After all, that starts to sound like you're thinking law suit. What response would you expect from a coach in that situation?

Very succinctly DLP - circle the wagons, write the letter to the coach asking for your 600 bucks back and call it good like suggested.

Most importantly IMO - Trust the posters here that have said to remain classy. It sounds like you're from a small community. You may have alienated some people and strained some relationships already by leaving your 2009 team. I'm not at all trying to say what you're doing is wrong. Take the high road and don't stoop to other folks level. Time will heal those wounds much quicker that way. Good luck to you and your son next summer.

tell him he's changed his mind and wants to play for his team. when he says no thanks we don't want him anymore ask for your money back.

quote:

Originally posted by ghoti:
tell him he's changed his mind and wants to play for his team. when he says no thanks we don't want him anymore ask for your money back.

Great idea! What if the coach says OK?

Just remember that baseball is a small world. And the longer you play the smaller it gets. Im just saying.

DLP;

Questions:

1. What was the reason to change teams?
2. What is the age of the players?
3. What type of schedule for Team #1 [2009] and Team #2 [2010]?
4. What position did you son play on 2009?
5. What promises did the coach of Team #2 make to you and your son?
6. How large is your community?
7. What are your son's goals?
8. What are your objectives?

With 26 years in International Baseball, 7 years in Legion Baseball and 17 years in the Area Code games, we always refund the money, if a player changes his mind.

An obligation of $3,400.00 would place a player on
one of our American teams for travel to Australia in December to play 11 games against the best players in the land "down under".

This includes air fare [15,000 miles], coaching by pro scouts, equipment, insurance and host family.

Bob Williams