tagging up?

Good question. No violation. The batter has not passed R1, although R1 is no longer entitled to occupy 1st base.

If the batter had rounded 1st toward 2nd when R1 went back and tagged, that would be a different matter. In that case, the batter would be out for passing an unobstructed preceding runner, and the force would be removed. R1 could then stay on 1st base or attempt to advance. The ball stays live.

Would it not be passing the runner when the batter touches first and then the runner goes back and touches first whether he rounds toward second or not.

In order to pass a runner he would have to phsically go ahead of R1 and he did not in this case.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Would it not be passing the runner when the batter touches first and then the runner goes back and touches first whether he rounds toward second or not.

No. The only way that could be called is if BR actually passed R1 somewhere between 1st and 2nd base. Say BR made the turn at 1st, seeing the dropped ball, as R1 returned to 1st thinking the ball had been caught. But in the situation you describe, there is nothing to call. I'm assuming in your case that the BR either stopped at 1st or overran into the outfield without turning toward 2nd and pasing R1.

The BR would actually have to pass R1 for the ruling to be made. I'd then signal a delayed dead ball to my partner, then after the play ends, call time, call BR out.

Actually, nothing was called because the only ones who saw it was myself in the scoretower and the coach sitting down the first base line.
I have never seen this scenario as an umpire.
I would argue that he physically passed him in the whole scenario of baseball thinking. Physically passing is in relationship to bases. When the batter touched first and proceeded and then the runner tagged up, the batter was further along on the field of play than the runner. The batter had proceeded past the first base and the runner was still on first. In the real scenario, the ball went to the fence and the runner advanced to third and the batter advanced to second. The runner actually touched first after the batter so as a coach I would argue that he had advanced past him even if, physically on the field, he never advanced beyond him in the basepath, he passed him by the succession of the touching of first.
Not trying to argue. Again I have neve seen this and it brought about an interesting discussion in between games between the coaches and umpires and myself. Everyone had an opinion and no one had proof. The rule says a runner shall not pass another runner but it does not clarify what is passing. One said physically and if so that did not happen in visual physicallity but several of us said that in the succession of touching first the batter did pass the runner by touching first and then the runner touching first and both proceeding.
I told them I would put it on here and see what responses we got.

No prob Jeff. In our league book adapted from FED, the quote under the Runner is Out (like you said) says: "Passes an unobstructed preceding runner before such runner is out (including awarded bases)"

I've had similar situations when a runner returned to a base thinking there was a catch as another runner is advancing, or advanced, to the same base. On the field watching the play, the only question for me would be, "Did BR pass R1?" or at any time, had BR advanced farther to 2nd than R1? In this situation, unless the BR made the turn (regardless of how far up the line) and passed R1 as R1 returned, it's play on. The order of who touched the base would not be a factor. The only factor I would use would be the physical relation of the runners to each other on their base paths in relation to the bases in question. Did BR pass R1?

I could see how this would easily spark a post-game discussion, especially given the result of the play.

i'm not an umpire, but the rule is passing the runner. the base situation you mention doesn't fit. at least as i learned the rule. i did read it in a rule book ,or maybe i just think i did? i'm sure the rule is actually passing the runner.

So, if R1 returns to first base and stands there and BR runs past first base, it all depends on whether BR shows indication to go to second base or not? In other words, if BR passes first base and then makes a movement toward second, he could be guilty of passing R1 (who is standing on first)?

quote:

Originally posted by Kimosabe:
So, if R1 returns to first base and stands there and BR runs past first base, it all depends on whether BR shows indication to go to second base or not? In other words, if BR passes first base and then makes a movement toward second, he could be guilty of passing R1 (who is standing on first)?

Correct. BR is free to run or slide past first up the line with no worries in any situation. But if he makes a turn toward or feints to 2nd (doesn't matter if he pivots left or right on the return) and he passes R1, BR is out. It would be the same at any base if the preceding runner grows roots and the succeeding runner passes him.

quote:

Originally posted by Snaredrum:

The BR would actually have to pass R1 for the ruling to be made. I'd then signal a delayed dead ball to my partner, then after the play ends, call time, call BR out.

The runner is out immediately. Ball stays live.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:

quote:

Originally posted by Snaredrum:

The BR would actually have to pass R1 for the ruling to be made. I'd then signal a delayed dead ball to my partner, then after the play ends, call time, call BR out.

The runner is out immediately. Ball stays live.

Now see? THAT'S why I love it here. I stand corrected. Thanks Dash

Can someone quote me the rule about passing? I'm not calling this year, have 2 playing varsity ball, so I don't have a rule book.
A long-time official here says that the rule does not say physical passing. He said it could be interpretted who touches the base in what order or physically passing according to the umpire.
This has got my curiosity going.
USSSA says He is out if passes a preceeding runner. That could be interpretted either way.

The FED rule is 8-4-2-m: Any runner is out when he passes an unobstructed preceding runner before such runner is out (including awarded bases).

When BR overruns 1st and neither attempts nor feints an advance toward 2nd, and then R1 tags up, its as if both runners are standing on the base. If, at that moment, BR was tagged (off the base on the overrun) he would not be out. If R1 was tagged standing on 1st, he would be out (force). Occupying the same base is not passing.

quote:

USSSA says He is out if passes a preceeding runner. That could be interpretted either way.

USSSA plays by OBR, and OBR 7.08
7.08 Any runner is out when—
(h) He passes a preceding runner before such runner is out;

There is no way to interpet this other than R physically (gets closer to HP or which ever base) "passes" a runner ahead of him. I've called this one time, in my life, R2 and R3 1 out, B hits a long fly down the LF line, R3 tags and is listening to coach, meanwhile R2 see's LFer will not get to the ball and goes. R3 tags and jogs towards HP as R2 is hustling home, he passes R3 about 10' from 3rd, as he tries to hit the skids and slow down, to late he's by R3.
And when I say by, I mean all the way infront of, not "even".