Tagging up at 3rd

We have always had the runner focus on breaking on our GO. We yell go as we see the ball starting to enter the glove. This means the runner will break right after we yell go and at the same time the ball is entering the glove. If you wait untill it has actually been caught the reaction time of the runner hearing go and actually going is slower. Works for us I cant ever remember us leaving too early and we usually get great jumps this way.

Setting up your players to listen for the coach to yell Go is bush little league.

Get them to the base, let them see the play and react on their own.

Teacherman first of all no need to call someone bush little league ok. If you disagree ok thats fine. How about the fly ball down the lf line behind the runner. You want him looking over his shoulder away from where he is going to be running and making the call on when to go on his own? If thats what you teach fine. I would rather take that burden off of the player so he can focus on doing one thing and that is getting a great jump and concentrating on running. I can judge when the ball is about to enter the glove and yell go. Call it bush league if you want to. But just because someone disagrees with you or you disagree with them why do you have to make these kind of comments?

Show me where I called YOU bush little league.

I believe YOU decided you were based on my post.

As for your example of the ball down the LF line, how do you define "looking over his shoulder". I would have my player with his right foot on the base so he is facing foul territory. From that position he can see everything from foul territory to the orignal left fielders position. If the ball is in the gap or toward center field, he'll have his left foot on the base, facing fair territory.

The last thing you want is the runner in "the starting blocks" position where he can't see.

Isn't it the coaches job to teach "how to do" rather than do for them

With young players (inexperienced freshmen usually) we use a coach's prompt. As they gain experience we transition to having them watch, read and break.

More important than this has always been making sure that they are in a position to tag up. We have both lost and won games because someone had drifted into no-man's-land.

Our philosophy has always been that we are helping them develop into smarter, more independent ballplayers.

Different strokes for different folks. Personal preference.

Think about it- if a runner could get from point A to point B faster by standing
with one foot on the bag(turned sideways), wouldn't all olympic sprinters start
that way? Haven't seen it done yet.

Coach May, the only problem I see with your method is getting the timing right
on "GO!" but I'm sure you probably have it worked out through experience. I've
also seen runners watching the catch and still start late.

Coach May/Moc/Tiger - thanks - that's the kind of response I was after, not the response Coach May's antagonist had to offer [i.e. the usual - nothing worthwhile].

I understand the arguments that can be made for both sides. Coach - it sounds like you yell GO just prior to the catch, thus minimizing the reaction time - any problem with an appeal, and Blue working off when you yelled GO as opposed to the actual leaving of the base [i.e. assuming the runner actually left on your GO, which was right before the actual catch]?

I agree with Coach May--there is no need for the runner on third to be looking to the outfield--the coach will give him the signal be it "GO" or "NOW" or even "YES" so that "GO" and "NOW" do not sound like "NO"

Even more importantly is the runner and coach being on the same page prior to the play so the player is not confused.

I have to go with TR and coach MAy. Even in the majors you see the 3rd base coach directing the start. With many "bang-bang" plays at the plate, I would want the best possible jump from the base with the coach responsible for the tag.

quote:

Think about it- if a runner could get from point A to point B faster by standing
with one foot on the bag(turned sideways), wouldn't all olympic sprinters start
that way? Haven't seen it done yet.

Ridiculous analogy.

I must disagree with the majority on this one, sorry.

In pro or college baseball nearly all are taught to see the catch rather than rely on the 3rd base coach. This helps in timing and eliminates miscommunication. In fact, if we ever saw the other team relying on the coach there would be a lot of people yelling go before the catch.

The only thing a 3rd base coach should say is "TAG" and he shouldn't really need to say that. Then it's all up to the runner to see and time the play. Certain situations will cause the coach to tell the runner what to do... Fake a break but stay here... draw the throw... etc.

The ability to see the catch and time everything is much better than relying on the coach to see the catch, give the order to go and hope the communication works. The secret is for the runner tagging to be in the right position.

If anyone can show an example of a Major League player not watching the catch as he tags... I will change my mind. Actually, I would not change my mind on this one.

This is only my opinion, but it is shared by many.

I agree withPG. I let my runners make their own decisions. Even though they are 11, my objective is to have them make their own decisions. 95% of the time they do.

Most runners have always had a coach tell them what to do. I would rather teach my little guys how to play the game.

I agree with all those who allow the runner to look at the catch on this one as well. Here is the way I have always taught it:

The runner must look at the outfielder rather than the ball; watching the ball seems more difficult to anticipate proper timing. The coach should be about half way down the line, in a position to hold the runner up if it appears that he will be out.

It works and is pretty simple this way.

My personal preference is to also have the runner watch the catch as well and make
his own judgement. College and professional players should have learned "timing"
by then-as should good high school players, but I've seen a lot who haven't and
there are some instances where a coach knows who can and who can't.

Teacherman, on a fly ball hit to right field are you going to have your player
tag up as though he were stealing(left foot on the bag and right foot towards
home) or in the sprinter stance? Actually, you don't need to answer, you already
have.

I respect the opposing opinions here and I can see your points. I as a HS coach do not have as much confidence in all my players to make as good as decision as I think I can on when to leave. I cant have one policy for the veteran ball player and another one for the inexperienced. At the Pro or College level I can see where you will rely on their good judgement. But I coach 14 15 16 17 18 year olds. Not much of a problem with the older kids or even the experienced younger ones. But I am very calm and in controll and have years of experience working for me. I feel that I can make the call and take this off of their shoulders. Hey some of you disagree and I respect that. As far as others yelling go to deek my players I am the only one standing right beside them and they know my voice. I have coached a long time and I have never had a player get deeked by the fans or opposing team in this situation. I do agree with TR that go can sound like no. Release or Now is better.

Coach May,

While I disagree, I respect your experience, knowledge and success.

Let's just say, there will come a time if a player advances far enough, that he will be taught to do it the other way. IMO

As as assistant coach, I saw this play cost us a Super Sectional championship. The runner on third thought that the coach said "no" and didn't score in the bottom of the 7th with one out. Then, he didn't score. We lost the game in the 12th. In my humble opinion, "go" should never be a command given. We inform the runner at 3rd about the game situation. Typically, we might say do not go on balls to 1st, 3rd or pitcher. We remind the players of the outfielder's arms. We always say, "Down in foul. Back in fair." We always say, "Don't be so big that your first thought is back instead of read." We always say, tag on a fly ball. We try to always remind them to tag on a foul ball as well. Then, I go down the line on a fly ball. Our players know that they are on their own and that I'll will yell to stop them.

As with so many facets of this game, it depends upon what your experiences are as to what you do. I sat in a dugout with a bunch of brokenhearted guys and one guy trying to explain how he didn't score in an obvious scoring opportunity. He has to live with that.

For those that advocate listening for the coach, would you change the strategy if you were at a game where there may be a lot of screaming fans?

Isn’t it sometimes confusing when the other teams players are yelling cutoff instructions at the same time?

Doesn’t it require you to be relatively close to your base runner whereas sometime it is an advantage for the coach instead to be down the baseline where they might read the incoming throw and still have a chance to send the runner back?

In addition do you say go before the catch to makeup for the push off delay? Or do you say ready, set, go?

SBK
MY answers to your questions in order:

NO
NO
NO--we also have hand signals and he is looking at the 3B coach down the line
Neither

By the way our system works for us

My preference is having the runner take responsibility for getting a jump. The coaches job is to stop him if there's too much chance he'll get thrown out.

The biggest problem and it seems to happen even at the higher levels is a player not getting back to the bag in time to tag on a fly ball. This one has been a pet peeve of mine, since my first at bat as a 14yo in Pony league. My fly ball was caught by the left fielder leaning back over the fence. The runner from 3rd was already in the dugout and a sac fly turned into a double play.

Method of taking off on a tag up aside more important is the player knowing what to do on the fly ball---the runner on third can crawl home from third if a flyball to the left field fence drops in-- always be back on the bag in these situations

I'm am getting the kind of action on this post that I anticipated [although I was hoping for a clear cut majority, as in many things baseball, there are more than one side to each issue]. Personally I have always been in the "Coach yelling GO" camp. I always felt that if the coach was properly positioned down the line, with the player in position to take off, while watching the coach, this was the best chance of success. If the coach times his GO properly, and the runner is watching the coach, the runner should be able to "see" when the coach will yell - there is body language involved - runner can see the coach "tense" in order to yell, maybe his eyes get a little bigger as the ball approaches the fielders glove, and the runner can read this, preparing his takeoff [much like a runner reading the eyes of a 3B as he prepares to slide into 3rd]. All that being said, there is much to be said for allowing the runner to make the decision, thus teaching him in the process. The beat goes on.

This thread probably illustrates better than anything that there is no one way to coach or play the game. Find what works best for your team, realizing that teams will differ from year to year.

Tigerboy thats one of the best posts I have read here in a long time.

Not sure if this helps or not, but in the HS games I call, the VAST majority of these instances fall in the "Coach yelling Go!" camp.

we personally teac the player to see the ball and as they are tracking the ball down to the glove they are moving down (into a good athletic position to get a good start) they kindo of roll into the start (not sure this is a good description). this helps them get a good jump. they are automatically scoring UNLESS they hear something different from the coach.

we are similar with our bunt traps with a man on 1st. fielders are automatically going to second, UNLESS they hear something different from the catcher or coach

piaa ump, Got a question for you.

Situation:Runner on third,one out and fly ball to left center. Runner tags up waiting for coaches's signal to go. Coach anticipates leftfielder making catch and yells "NOW!".

Runner takes off after ball hits glove but pops out and centerfielder catches before it hits the ground. Appeal is made at third that runner left before the actual catch was made.

Probably in the rules somewhere, but was trying to think of situations where not watching
the fielder catch the ball would be a hindrance.

Just curious. Thanks.

MOC,

Piaa can find you the rule number if he wishes but in the meantime I can assure you that the runner can go as soon as the ball touches the player.

If that were not the case, outfielders would practice juggling the ball all the way to the infield.

Moc1,
SBK is correct and the answer for your question is found in the definition of a catch.

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player, or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball. It is not a catch if a fielder touches a fly ball which then hits a member of the offensive team or an umpire and then is caught by another defensive player. If the fielder has made the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball shall be adjudged to have been caught. In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. .Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball.

I don’t want to turn this into an argument, but I really don’t feel this is one of those either way things. I do respect the opinions of those good baseball people who disagree even though I disagree with them. Please excuse me for being stubborn.

The main reason for the runner tagging and seeing the play is to get the best possible jump. Runners react quicker and more accurately when they see the play rather than listen to the coach. A coach would not tell a player when to go on a passed ball or a stolen base. If a runner is at 3rd base on a passed ball or wild pitch, would he react better and quicker to what he sees or what the coach tells him?

I believe every high level of play operates this way (runner seeing the play). The runner is not in an awkward position… he simply turns his head to see the play. It costs no time what so ever, or they would do it differently. The coach also doesn’t tell the runner at 2nd base when to go when tagging up.

Ron Polk is one of the most highly regarded coaches in college baseball history. He wrote a Baseball Playbook that all coaches and players should read. While there are a few things I might do differently, the majority of his book is common practice at the highest levels.

Here in his words… copied from the book.

“The 3rdbase coach should not be responsible to tell the runner when to break for the plate. The runner must watch the ball and break for the plate at the proper time. This is to eliminate any delay in transmission of a communication from the 3rd base coach to the runner.”

I’m not saying the other way can’t work and I can understand why a coach would feel more certain about telling his runners what to do and when to do it. I’m certainly not saying someone is a bad coach because they do things differently. I’m saying this is the way it’s done by most people in baseball. And I believe it’s the only way it’s done at the highest levels. If someone can give an example of anyone at the highest levels of college or professional baseball that teaches this differently, I’d love to hear about it. It’s always good to keep an open mind even though my mind is fairly closed on this subject. Just can’t get myself to see it any other way… Sorry!

Ron Polk is the Head Coach at Mississippi State. Anyone interested in his Playbook could contact the baseball department there. I will guarantee that anyone reading his book will learn something.

Seeing the ball yourself allows for a jump. It allows anticipation of the moment.

Waiting for a verbal cue is simply not as effective. Even if the coach factors that into his go command. The player still has to hear it, process it and react.

I'm with you PG. I've never seen a big leaguer do this.

And, if you watched the World Series, you saw the problem with coaches communicating with runners verbally on spur of the moment decisions.

piaa-Thanks.