Didn't cross my mind that taking foul balls to the mask would or might cause a concussion. Good food for thought for those that have a catcher in their family.
Dangerous Job
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Good article. Thanks for posting this. Has me questioning a little the new hockey style masks. I would be interested to hear what others think about the difference between the two types. My thought is that the traditional style mask may disperse the force of the blow better since it is strapped over the cap instead of one piece firmly attached. Kind of like a car with crumple zones that absorb the blow, the traditional mask is able to absorb some of the hit by moving with the blow or flying off.
Thanks for the article. I can personally attest to this since my son is currently on the DL recurperating from a concussion resulting from a foul tip directly to the face mask that knocked him down sent him into the umpire a few weeks back. He finished the game but was sick at his stomach and was dizzy. He continues to have low grade headaches and dizziness and has had two brain scans. They say everything looks clear but they think he has had more than one concussion in the past. They have him scheduled to see a nuerologist this Friday.
Fungo
Fungo
Fungo,
Best wishes for a speedy recovery for Josh. Concussions are nothing to take lightly.
Best wishes for a speedy recovery for Josh. Concussions are nothing to take lightly.
Fungo...Thanks for telling us about Josh. I pray that all goes well with him on Friday and that he fully recovers. We are pulling for him.
Prayers and well wishes for your boy Fungo. Thanks for sharing.
Tim
Tim
Fungo
My best wishes for a speedy recovery as well.
I don't know what difference the different style of helmets make. Deacon, your theory makes sense to me but I'm no scientist
. My son does not wear hockey style but it wasn't a safety choice. He decided he wanted to wear a traditional mask and skull cap because he wanted to be like Kurt Suzuki of Cal-State Fullerton in the CWS a few years back. When high school comes he won't have that choice anymore from what I understand.
My best wishes for a speedy recovery as well.
I don't know what difference the different style of helmets make. Deacon, your theory makes sense to me but I'm no scientist
. My son does not wear hockey style but it wasn't a safety choice. He decided he wanted to wear a traditional mask and skull cap because he wanted to be like Kurt Suzuki of Cal-State Fullerton in the CWS a few years back. When high school comes he won't have that choice anymore from what I understand.
Bkekcs,
You are correct, NFHS rules forbid the use of a the traditional mask and skull cap.....Its a one piece helmet with dual ear protection only.
Regardless of mask type, as fungo can readily endorse, the effects of fouls to the catcher (and umpires) can result in serious injury.
My prayers are for a speedy recovery for Josh!!
There is a great deal of discussion regarding the impact qualities of both masks going on in umpire circles right now. I expect someone to come up with the appropriate data to support both types very soon....(everyone has their own experts....).
For 20 years Ive worn the traditional mask...before that as a catcher I wore the traditional mask and skull cap....I like the proectetion of the HSM, but not the look or the ease of removal for umpire duties...
a direct hard foul to the mask regardless of protection, is a reason to check your catcher...
You are correct, NFHS rules forbid the use of a the traditional mask and skull cap.....Its a one piece helmet with dual ear protection only.
Regardless of mask type, as fungo can readily endorse, the effects of fouls to the catcher (and umpires) can result in serious injury.
My prayers are for a speedy recovery for Josh!!
There is a great deal of discussion regarding the impact qualities of both masks going on in umpire circles right now. I expect someone to come up with the appropriate data to support both types very soon....(everyone has their own experts....).
For 20 years Ive worn the traditional mask...before that as a catcher I wore the traditional mask and skull cap....I like the proectetion of the HSM, but not the look or the ease of removal for umpire duties...
a direct hard foul to the mask regardless of protection, is a reason to check your catcher...
I took one off the mask 25 years ago on my right cheek. Nothing broken, just a bruise. To this day, I can touch the spot and its still sore. Took a bat off just above the right temple, that still hurts. No wonder why I'm all screwed up.
It's kind of ironic, the day I started reading this tread I took a foul tip off my mask. Deaconspoint's post about the different masks is one of the first things I thought of, well after I found out where I was. I use a traditional style mask. Like Coachric was saying, I have so many bumps and bruises all over my body from catching and I'm only 15. However, you know what, I wouldn't have it any other way. I love catching and it's going to take a heck of a lot more than a few dings here and there to ever make me consider changing positions.
-Kevin
-Kevin
Thanks for the article Bkekcs.
I have a catcher as well. He hasn't taken a shot to the head, knock on wood, and he's been playing the position for a couple of years.
I have a catcher as well. He hasn't taken a shot to the head, knock on wood, and he's been playing the position for a couple of years.
Very interesting. I never knew a foul tip could give a concussion.
I wonder if it would be possible to design the front of a mask so that fould tips would always glance off.
Assuming that the only way a catcher could get a concussion from a foul tip is if the entire momemtum of the ball is stopped dead by the mask - if the mask was designed so the ball would always glance off, it could prevent a lot of injury.
Cushioning the blow is one thing - obviously you want the mask to do this well. But preventing the blow is even better.
Maybe I will talk to my designer friends at NIKE and see if their engineers could figure out something.
I wonder if it would be possible to design the front of a mask so that fould tips would always glance off.
Assuming that the only way a catcher could get a concussion from a foul tip is if the entire momemtum of the ball is stopped dead by the mask - if the mask was designed so the ball would always glance off, it could prevent a lot of injury.
Cushioning the blow is one thing - obviously you want the mask to do this well. But preventing the blow is even better.
Maybe I will talk to my designer friends at NIKE and see if their engineers could figure out something.
Hey Rob
If your friends at Nike like the idea tell them you got it from me.
If your friends at Nike like the idea tell them you got it from me.
CatchingCoach makes a comment in his video about the mask and it's primary responsibility. He has heard parents in the stands say things like. "it's a good thing he/she has that mask on or that would have hurt". His comment is that the mask is there to keep the catcher from passing out. It hurts, a lot!! Never think that just because the mask caught the ball that the catcher is not injured and needs a look. He goes on to say that a catcher should never play hurt.
Our catcher's are tough, even at a young age. My boy had a collision at the plate this past spring that taught me that I need to keep an eye on him because he is not always going to show his pain. He went down hard, got up and threw the ball back to the pitcher, then went directly back into his stance. I wanted a second for him so I called time out. I got out to him and he dropped to his knees and grabbed onto me. He had thrown the ball back and jumped back into his stance, but had not taken a breath. The collision knocked the breath out of him and hurt him pretty badly, but he was not going to let anyone know he was hurt. We had a long talk about it that night and I think he is clear on what's important now. I blame myself fo rnot having that conversation earlier. Didn't know I needed to.
I watched Pudge take one off the mask the other day and saw something that made me feel good. He jumped right back into his stance and the umpire reached out and grabbed his arm and leaned down to check on him. I think that was pretty heads up by the ump. Good to see this and be able to show my boy that his safety matters most no matter what level of play your in.
Our catcher's are tough, even at a young age. My boy had a collision at the plate this past spring that taught me that I need to keep an eye on him because he is not always going to show his pain. He went down hard, got up and threw the ball back to the pitcher, then went directly back into his stance. I wanted a second for him so I called time out. I got out to him and he dropped to his knees and grabbed onto me. He had thrown the ball back and jumped back into his stance, but had not taken a breath. The collision knocked the breath out of him and hurt him pretty badly, but he was not going to let anyone know he was hurt. We had a long talk about it that night and I think he is clear on what's important now. I blame myself fo rnot having that conversation earlier. Didn't know I needed to.
I watched Pudge take one off the mask the other day and saw something that made me feel good. He jumped right back into his stance and the umpire reached out and grabbed his arm and leaned down to check on him. I think that was pretty heads up by the ump. Good to see this and be able to show my boy that his safety matters most no matter what level of play your in.
quote:Originally posted by deaconspoint:
CatchingCoach makes a comment in his video about the mask and it's primary responsibility. He has heard parents in the stands say things like. "it's a good thing he/she has that mask on or that would have hurt". His comment is that the mask is there to keep the catcher from passing out. It hurts, a lot!! Never think that just because the mask caught the ball that the catcher is not injured and needs a look. He goes on to say that a catcher should never play hurt.
Our catcher's are tough, even at a young age. My boy had a collision at the plate this past spring that taught me that I need to keep an eye on him because he is not always going to show his pain. He went down hard, got up and threw the ball back to the pitcher, then went directly back into his stance. I wanted a second for him so I called time out. I got out to him and he dropped to his knees and grabbed onto me. He had thrown the ball back and jumped back into his stance, but had not taken a breath. The collision knocked the breath out of him and hurt him pretty badly, but he was not going to let anyone know he was hurt. We had a long talk about it that night and I think he is clear on what's important now. I blame myself fo rnot having that conversation earlier. Didn't know I needed to.
I watched Pudge take one off the mask the other day and saw something that made me feel good. He jumped right back into his stance and the umpire reached out and grabbed his arm and leaned down to check on him. I think that was pretty heads up by the ump. Good to see this and be able to show my boy that his safety matters most no matter what level of play your in.
Good points Deacon. Whenever anyone gets hit with a ball, catcher or anyone else, there should be time taken to check them out. As I said before I hadn't thought about the mask hits. Tuff guy or not, you only get one body.
My 13u had a rough year when it came to getting hit with the ball. He was on 3rd leading off when the batter hit a screaming line drive that hit him in the shoulder blade. Thank goodness he was able to turn his body. When I saw it happen I thought it hit his face. He missed two weeks. His first at bat after coming back he was hit in the back about 6 inches from the previous hit. Then they tryed to pick him off at first and he was hit in the tail bone. Needless to say we paid attention to those incidents. From now on mask hits will get my attention too.
The next time you see a catcher take one off the mask in higher baseball watch what the umpire does afterwards....
I consider it one of the unwritten rules of baseball......when your catcher takes one off the mask, you immediately call time.....go out a little beyond the cutout.....and throw a new ball to the pitcher or ask to see the ball.....rub it up....or just turn around and dust the plate with your brush or toe of your plate shoe.....anything to give your catcher a few minutes to pull himself together.... as said before sometimes the results of the impact take a minute or so to surface.....
I always ask if he is ok and if I dont get a verbal answer, I ask the coach to check on him....players at this level are not apt to easily remove themselves from a game.....
That being said, if I take one off the mask....catchers will give me the same consideration.....call time to run out to talk to the pitcher and give me a minute or so...
it is a good idea for all concerned....as an umpire I do not want a catcher in front of me who is impaired...and he certainly does not want me behind him calling balls and strikes with my eyes rolling around in the back of my head.........
I consider it one of the unwritten rules of baseball......when your catcher takes one off the mask, you immediately call time.....go out a little beyond the cutout.....and throw a new ball to the pitcher or ask to see the ball.....rub it up....or just turn around and dust the plate with your brush or toe of your plate shoe.....anything to give your catcher a few minutes to pull himself together.... as said before sometimes the results of the impact take a minute or so to surface.....
I always ask if he is ok and if I dont get a verbal answer, I ask the coach to check on him....players at this level are not apt to easily remove themselves from a game.....
That being said, if I take one off the mask....catchers will give me the same consideration.....call time to run out to talk to the pitcher and give me a minute or so...
it is a good idea for all concerned....as an umpire I do not want a catcher in front of me who is impaired...and he certainly does not want me behind him calling balls and strikes with my eyes rolling around in the back of my head.........
Nice post, piaa_ump.
One of those things within the game that I have been very fortunate to observe is the special and unique relationship between the ump and catcher.
For many reasons, I am allowed only one question about the game after it's over.
(It's not a bad rule.)
And, sometimes it's "What were you and the ump talking about during the game?"
"Fishing, dad..."
One of those things within the game that I have been very fortunate to observe is the special and unique relationship between the ump and catcher.
For many reasons, I am allowed only one question about the game after it's over.
(It's not a bad rule.)
And, sometimes it's "What were you and the ump talking about during the game?"
"Fishing, dad..."
PIAA:
You are absoltuely right it works both ways. Ump takes one off the shoulder or mask, my kid calls time and goes to have a chat with the pitcher.
I've seen some puzzled looks from some of the pitchers who don't understand what is going on. "Why are you out here?"
I know the umps appreciate a catcher - especially a youth catcher - who has enough game awareness to do this.
You are absoltuely right it works both ways. Ump takes one off the shoulder or mask, my kid calls time and goes to have a chat with the pitcher.
I've seen some puzzled looks from some of the pitchers who don't understand what is going on. "Why are you out here?"
I know the umps appreciate a catcher - especially a youth catcher - who has enough game awareness to do this.
well the hockey style masks prevent that quite well.i had one that had been in great shape and had only taken one or two hits when it busted into about 5 or 6 pieces.i had no concussion and would recommend them over the skull cap and mask any day.
wow i never knew that taking a foul ball could cause a concussion. Ive been catching since i was like 8 and ive taken many foul balls to the head. Maybe thats why i got a concusion in football last year after a few head to head collisions.
quote:well the hockey style masks prevent that quite well
Sorry but that's NOT correct. Research has shown that the hockey style mask offers no additional protection from the foul tip impact over the conventional style masks.
Matheny uses the hockey-style mask preferred by some catchers for its better sight lines, and he was initially convinced it contributed to his concussion. But the Giants enlisted two testing centers to compare the impact resistance of the hockey mask to the traditional catcher's mask — and, so far, they appear to offer similar protection.
Piazza uses a specially ordered mask that looks like a traditional mask but is heavier.
but what about the people who say the hockey style mask has more protection going all around the head?? this is a real eye opener..kinda scary. gives me the jitters (or whatever those things are called)..i use the hockey style, and now im considering switching.
but the article says they offer similar protection from foul tips, nothing is definitely true, right? it could just be bad luck...
but the article says they offer similar protection from foul tips, nothing is definitely true, right? it could just be bad luck...
I wore the hockey style All-Star helmet from the time I was 12 years old through the end of my freshman year in college. I then transfered and the coach where I'm at does not allow catchers to wear that type of mask because of the possibility of concussions/brain damage. Learning how to effectively wear the old school two-piece took some time, but eventually I got used to it, and now I feel safer for the most part. I've gotten my bell run a few times from 85+ mph foul tips. I feel absolutely nothing with the two-piece mask. Maybe the NFHS should consider changing the rules on catchers' head gear...
The only thing I do not like about the two-piece is the possibility of getting hit w/ the ball (or bat) in the back of the head and around the ear. I guess you have to pick your poison in that regard...
ps Fungo, hope Josh has a full and speedy recovery
The only thing I do not like about the two-piece is the possibility of getting hit w/ the ball (or bat) in the back of the head and around the ear. I guess you have to pick your poison in that regard...
ps Fungo, hope Josh has a full and speedy recovery
I've taken quite a few off the face over the past 9 years, ranging from 40mph to close to 100mph. I may not know as much as yall do, but I sure do know that it hurts, even with the mask. To me, it seems like the 2 piece mask is better at deflecting the blow. Lots of times the mask will get hit, and will twist on my face, or get askew some how, which helps lessen the transfer of energy to my head. The hocky style ones, have less cuishionly padding, and theres only one direction for the impact to go, straight to your head. They are so bulky, you have to have them on tight in order to be able to move effectively and not have them flying around, like the two piece masks, which are lighter and much more stable even when on loose. Although you are abit more susceptible to taking a ball in the side of the jaw/face than with the hockey mask, they usually aren't traveling very fast, as you should be facing the ball anyways. On both, the bottom of the jaw is left wide open, so that is equally unprotected.
which one is more effective? I have no idea. Which one feels more effective to me, the two piece by a longshot.
which one is more effective? I have no idea. Which one feels more effective to me, the two piece by a longshot.
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:quote:well the hockey style masks prevent that quite well
Sorry but that's NOT correct. Research has shown that the hockey style mask offers no additional protection from the foul tip impact over the conventional style masks.
Matheny uses the hockey-style mask preferred by some catchers for its better sight lines, and he was initially convinced it contributed to his concussion. But the Giants enlisted two testing centers to compare the impact resistance of the hockey mask to the traditional catcher's mask — and, so far, they appear to offer similar protection.
Piazza uses a specially ordered mask that looks like a traditional mask but is heavier.
Traditional style wire masks are better at protection in frontal blows to the head. The hockey style masks are better at preventing injuries to the side of the head (ex. backswings).
http://www.kettering.edu/visitors/storydetail.jsp?storynum=552
