Taking the first pitch

We've always taught to enter the box with a "plan." It might include taking a breaking pitch depending upon the quality of the team we're facing. We teach to make an educated guess at pitch location, sit on the fastball, and hit the ball as the situation dictates. However, we aren't big fans of being aprehensive at the plate. If we are going to error, I want that error to be aggressive. In other words, hit that first strike. This would include a curve if we are "hitting backwards." By "hitting backwards," we mean that this pitcher has demonstrated the ability to throw that breaking ball for a strike and so, we aren't going to go "Softly into the night." We're looking to drive that pitch. We've had this discussion before on this site and so, many posters will comment on not having confidence to "hit deep into the count." However, that isn't really true. Like anything else, you practice all of this. From proper repetition should come the confidence to hit in any given count. JMHO!

Based on this study:

http://ise.tamu.edu/people/faculty/Bickel/Publications/AVG_by_Count.pdf

There is very little difference, see figure #1.

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I would like to get the opinion of HSBBW on the idea of always taking the first pitch. I know of lots of coaches in younger age groups who implement a rule that all batters must always take the first pitch.

Unfortunately such goes beyond younger age groups as i've seen HS coaches employ similar strategy. Senseless IMO ....pitchers are taught to get ahead in the count thus that first pitch may have been the best hitters pitch of the AB.

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I assume the idea is that at lower levels pitchers are less likely to throw strikes and you can run pitch counts up and get into better hitters counts

Not necessarily as those same coaches are likely to take them out of hitter counts by giving them the take sign again! Seen this at the HS level as well .

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Originally posted by obrady:
Based on this study:

http://ise.tamu.edu/people/faculty/Bickel/Publications/AVG_by_Count.pdf

There is very little difference, see figure #1.

According to Figure 1, it looks to me like you're half right. Batting average 0-1 vs. 1-0 looks pretty similar. However, slugging percentage looks significantly higher in a 1-0 count (in fact, SLG in a 1-0 count is even slightly higher than in a 3-1 count according to this graph). That seems significant to me, but maybe I'm wrong.

The coaches of the Soph and JV teams at my son's school has a tendency to have them take the first pitch most of the game. Strategy is to run up the pitch counts to see more pitching and I assume to teach discipline at the plate.

Do I agree with it? No, I would prefer the batter to go up looking for his pitch to drive and often it is the first pitch. However, someone else is the coach now and frankly, my son hit very well deep in the count anyway. He also did a good job fouling off a few to get his pitch or draw a walk. Hmmmm, maybe it was a good teaching strategy after all.

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Originally posted by Roll-it-up:
The coaches of the Soph and JV teams at my son's school has a tendency to have them take the first pitch most of the game. Strategy is to run up the pitch counts to see more pitching and I assume to teach discipline at the plate.

Do I agree with it? No, I would prefer the batter to go up looking for his pitch to drive and often it is the first pitch. However, someone else is the coach now and frankly, my son hit very well deep in the count anyway. He also did a good job fouling off a few to get his pitch or draw a walk. Hmmmm, maybe it was a good teaching strategy after all.

The teaching plate discipline part is interesting to me. IMO, it doesn't actually teach them anything, because there is no thinking involved. It's an automatic take.

To me, teaching plate discipline would be done better by teaching them to only swing at a pitch that they can really drive on the first pitch. That way they have to actively develop their own approach to each AB (i.e. if I get pitch X in location X, I'm hacking, otherwise I'll wait for my pitch). But again, I'm not saying I'm right and your sons coaches are wrong. I'm just trying to get a better idea of the other side of the argument.

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IMO, it doesn't actually teach them anything, becuase there is no thinking involved. It's an automatic take.

Exactly...discipline is only a factor in the presence of temptation.....the take sign removes
all temptation

As a pitcher, and assuming I have my stuff, I'd want batters to go after the first pitch. I'd love to have a three or four pitch inning, imagine, a complete game with 30 or so pitches.

I always thought taking the first pitch was for the benefit of the batter. You see the ball coming at you and get a better feel for the pitcher. Of course then it comes down to the batters abilty to hit with one strike. I used to teach our kids to look at one, unless it was so good you couldn't, then look for a pitch to hit. Ball - stirke, I didn't care, just a pitch "you" can drive.

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As a pitcher, and assuming I have my stuff, I'd want batters to go after the first pitch. I'd love to have a three or four pitch inning, imagine, a complete game with 30 or so pitches.

As a pitcher with stuff you should want hitters consistently taking the first pitch as it will greatly simplify your job!

You don't truly believe that runs scored and the outcome of a game is directly related to pitch count, do you?

Kids should strive to develop the discipline to swing at pitches they can drive, period!

At the HS level I truly believe that the first pitch may well be the best pitch of the at bat. I believe the pitcher wants to get the first pitch in for a strike more than the batter wants to hit it

My son taught me this and I have used this as an example before but it shows how a good hitter thinks---they were in a tough game and he came to the plate in the bottom of the last inning with the bases loaded after the pitcher walked two in a row--but they bring in a new pitcher to face my son---the first pitch comes in and goes out over the fence for a game winning grandslam---after the game I asked why he didn't take the first pitch -- his answer was simple--it was a new pitcher, not the guy who just walked two batters in a row---the new pitcher needed to get the first pitch in for strike--he didn't want to get in hole on me---and he took something off the fastball to make sure he threw a strike---great logic to me--a thinking hitter


Even with our travel team we rarely have our hitters taking the first pitch except in certain situations---we feel they are good enough hitters to make the correct decisions---how can they learn if you don't turn them loose

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Originally posted by NYdad:
You don't truly believe that runs scored and the outcome of a game is directly related to pitch count, do you?

Unfortunately, in Little League this year, w/ the new pitch count rules, the name of the game seems to have become "Get their ace out of the game by the 4th inning (and seeing they're probably saving their #2 to start the next game, you'll open up the flood gates on lesser pitching)"! :P

TRHit, my son's only HR so far (last All-Stars) was a similar situation. Two runners on, he batted 3rd in that lineup, and they switched pitchers right before him. He launched the first pitch, expecting the kid would want to throw a strike in that situation.

sandman


Like I say---good hitters know what to do


Is the son you are talking about the young man I met in RI a few summers back at our tournament?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NYdad:
[QUOTE]
You don't truly believe that runs scored and the outcome of a game is directly related to pitch count, do you?

QUOTE]

Yes, I belive a guy is sharper at 30 pitches than 100.

I hate to be a fence sitter but here it is.
In little league you have to wait until you get a strike. The pitch count is the only thing that matters. If you swing early in the count the stud pitcher will get to stay around an extra inning or so and you will probalby lose.
But in travel ball, if the pitcher shows a tendency to throw first pitch fastball strikes, take your hack, it could be the only pitch you can drive.

Also, it is definately easier, for some batters, to really drive a ball if you have seen a few pitches. Their timing is always going to be better.

Now with all of this rambling and circular reasoning it really only comes down to one thing.

What situation makes the batter more comfortable. If he likes first pitches and can drive them, let him swing away(unless it is LL), if he likes to get deep in the count then let him. As everyone knows on this forum, if the batter thinks he can hammer the pitch, then most likely he will. If he is uncomfortable in some situations, he will be more likely to fail.

There isn't any "best way" to succeed at the plate. Every hitter is different, and as a coach, you have to let your players have the best opportunity to succeed. Cookie cutter never works for everyone. And if you think it does, IMHO, your ego is getting in the way of your players success.

quote:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NYdad:
[QUOTE]
You don't truly believe that runs scored and the outcome of a game is directly related to pitch count, do you?

QUOTE]

Yes, I belive a guy is sharper at 30 pitches than 100.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
sandman


Like I say---good hitters know what to do


Is the son you are talking about the young man I met in RI a few summers back at our tournament?

Yes, TR, that's my only son. He's still loving baseball, playing LL and 12U AAU (mostly Sunday doubleheaders only, plus a Cooperstown trip in August).

quote:

Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:


To me, teaching plate discipline would be done better by teaching them to only swing at a pitch that they can really drive on the first pitch. That way they have to actively develop their own approach to each AB (i.e. if I get pitch X in location X, I'm hacking, otherwise I'll wait for my pitch). But again, I'm not saying I'm right and your sons coaches are wrong. I'm just trying to get a better idea of the other side of the argument.

I agree with you, I don't like them taking the first pitch. As far as discipline, maybe patience is more appropriate. The kids did learn to battle better at the plate and we had a good hitting team. Anyway, I hate to see that first pitch taken away but ..... they are the coaches. Who am I to second guess them?

Take the first pitch?????.....Well, how good is the hitter?????...very relative question (sorry)..does he miss hit more than he centers balls?????........How good is the pitcher????....can he throw the ball over the plate??????.....and that question is very relative........Too many if's to flat out ask if a hitter should across the board take the first pitch........You never did mention the situation.....things obviously change with the situation....do you need baserunners??????? or are you up by 10 runs???????......too many variables..........too general of a question.....

Sorry, I may seem very sarcastic....and partially so.......but come on......I would be worried about teaching many more aspects of the game other than taking first pitches........

If I had it my way I would require a controlled game once a week at all levels below College to teach kids how play the game......IMO the two things that are messed up most often are cut-offs/relays and baserunning......have a coach pitch game w/ an L-screen and teach kids situations and beeing the right spot as well as baserunning......

LOW

This wa s asimple question asked for the purpose of discussion and provoking thought

And who says we coaches arent working on the other aspects as well


Coach/pitch for HS kids---you must be kidding !!!!

Not kidding at all......w/ an L-screen.....ball put in play more often and used for situations only.....remember I said once a week....not every game......all I meant was I would worry about other things more....rather than worry about taking a first pitch.....

Putting the cart before the horse in most cases by worrying about:

taking the first pitch
hitting a curve ball
throwing a curve ball
freaking out about mechanics (hitting/pitching)

Keep things simple when they are younger that is all....and by younger I mean below 18 or so.........

LOW

I see you are from Indiana---I think you might want to stick to basketball

Really.....No need to get personal TRhit.....

Just giving my thoughts to a thought provoking question......

And the thoughts are more than eduacated.....

LOW

Not personal at all


Just address the question that was posed---no need for the other stuff you brought in---thats for another time and another day in a different thread

I addressed the question and gave my thoughts on the topic just as the original poster said that he/she would like to hear.......

I feel you did get personal and made an assumption that you had no right to make.....you don't know me, don't know what I do, don't know anything about me......only where I am from.....

so would it be fair for me to tell you that you should stick to blue collar work and promoting your business of taking money from players who can't play????....solely based on me reading your profile.........Of course it would not be fair.......no place for that stuff in this forum or on this board.......

TRhit, why must you upset old Low?

He's just trying to educate us.......I think

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Not kidding at all......w/ an L-screen.....ball put in play more often and used for situations only.....

Did you ever stop to think that Low's teams just might need coach's pitch to put the ball in play?

I have no problem believing that.....But, maybe I've been reading his posts longer than you have.....

I have not coached at the little league level, but at the high school and college level taking the first pitch does necessarily mean a high pitch count. To the contrary, we try to get our players to attack the first fastball that catches too much of the plate. Lay off the curve and look fastball and expect a strike. It makes the game very easy for the hitter and they look to put their best swing on the ball. It causes the pitcher to be leary of throwing the first pitch fastball over the plate. They begin to nibble, try to pitch backward (some can do this to some extent but few can do this extensively throughout a game) and end up with big pitch counts very quickly. If you take 3 swings that inning and make three outs, then were they your best swings? If they were and you hit three hard hit balls right at someone and got out...so be it.

All this talk about raising the pitchers pitch count by taking the first pitch is a passive approach that will not work against quality competition. How about this theory. Hit the first good pitch you see. Be aggressive and attack the pitcher when he throws over the plate. Look to hit. Take a walk if you dont get anything good to hit. We must be talking about LL baseball here. Im talking HS baseball. And the idea about the L screen , please be real.

Maybe I am oversimplifying things here but the same approach should be taught at all levels - little league to pros.

1. Know the zone - pay attention to what the umpire calls for strikes
2. Know your zone - know which balls you can drive and which you struggle with
3. Attack fastballs early - they are the easiest to hit and most pitchers want to use them to get ahead so it only makes sense
4. Be disciplined - tied in with number one in that you don't swing at stuff out of the zone
5. Lay off the junk until have to - work hard in practice in deep counts so you can handle the junk if you get there

The game is simple - hit strikes and if they aren't strikes then take your base. If you are a pitcher get them out with good strikes and if you can't then you are going to have an early night.

Regardless of what the rules are in Little League they should be teaching the game and not trying to figure out ways to win. If you force a kid in Little League to take the first pitch guess what he is going to do when he gets older?? He is going take it and now you have to break him of this bad habit.

I know it will take more effort and more mistakes will be made by players in the lower levels but they are there to learn. If they were good at that age then they would be moved up to a higher level.

As for the "L" screen stuff I have my team do it on occassion in practice to make sure my guys aren't "forgetting" what to do. In a game with another team - not really feeling that. If you have to do it then you might need to get a new coach.

Guys let's get real.....I was not saying that we should pop the L-screen out and play other teams......

I was referring to a controlled scrimmage with your own team.....done once a week......

and just pointing out that very simple things like coach may and coach2709 pointed out.....

Worry about teaching the game more than getting worked up trivial things.......

I would much rather have a young player know where everyone on the field is supposed to be in a given situation rather than taking a first pitch or worrying about where my elbow is or how the umpire screwed up that call ball/strike on me.....

How many camps have you worked and asked a kid to play a certain position only to hear him say he can't do it, doesn't know where to be etc.....in sane......Teach the game, teach where to be, teach baserunning.....all of the other little things are important but not at the expense of teaching the game and rules of the game.......

How come most kids out of HS don't know what a Wheel is, why don't kids know that if the guy in front of me tags so should I, why don't they know the rules of the game (INF FLY, Detatched players equipment etc...) Do they know how to make appeals properly while the ball is in play and while it is not in play??.....do they understand where to be when you Intentionally Walk someone....I know you just tell the umpire to put him on but that doesn't mean you cannot prepare him for the next level.....

Why are we even worrying about telling a kid to take the first pitch??????......If you like it, hit it.....Let the Coach/Manager decide on weather to take or not as the situation presents itself......

I really don't like players being instructed to take the first pitch. However, my son takes the first pitch most of the time. This comes from him working with two former MLB players that convinced him to:

1) Watch the pitcher and approach each at bat with a plan.

2) Look for a particular pitch in a particular area for the first pitch. In other words look for your pitch. If it ain't there, pass. If it is, attack it. What happens is that in reality, many times that first pitch isn't what you want. I think this is where most coaches get that "don't swing at the first pitch" thing particularly at the younger ages where many batters aren't real good at judging the strike zone.

3) If the first pitch is a ball. Repeat #2 above. If it is a strike, expand the strike zone and pitch selection that you will swing at.

4) For every subsequent pitch, repeat the prior if a ball, expand if a strike. After you get to two strikes you have to protect.

That always made sense to me.

Michaels Dad.....Perfect......Exactly.....

Sit on a location depending on the situation....moving runners, inf in/back etc...

You can take a pitch with a purpose and if you tell a kid to just take the pitch for what ever reason you must also stress the importance of taking it with a purpose......track the ball, be prepared to hit it even if you know you are taking as this will only prepare you for subsequent pitches or most importantly the NEXT ONE.......

I love it Michaels Dad....Perfect......Solid

The one deck hitters should be watching the pitcher to see his pattern(S)--our guys talk to each other about what they were thrown and a pattern can be developed in very short order

Well, if there is one thing we are all in agreement on, it's we don't agree with the coach that instructs his team to automatically take the first pitch.

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Originally posted by LOW337:
Take the first pitch?????.....Well, how good is the hitter?????...very relative question (sorry)..does he miss hit more than he centers balls?????........How good is the pitcher????....can he throw the ball over the plate??????.....and that question is very relative........Too many if's to flat out ask if a hitter should across the board take the first pitch........You never did mention the situation.....things obviously change with the situation....do you need baserunners??????? or are you up by 10 runs???????......too many variables..........too general of a question.....

Sorry, I may seem very sarcastic....and partially so.......but come on......I would be worried about teaching many more aspects of the game other than taking first pitches........

If I had it my way I would require a controlled game once a week at all levels below College to teach kids how play the game......IMO the two things that are messed up most often are cut-offs/relays and baserunning......have a coach pitch game w/ an L-screen and teach kids situations and beeing the right spot as well as baserunning......

Actually, all too often none of this matters. We all know coaches who have batters take the first strike regardless of anything else. That's what my original question was asking about.....the idea of always taking the first pitch.

There is no "always" in baseball

Sure there is.....
Always play hard
Always Hustle (you never know who is watching)

Sorry couldn't help it.....I do know what you mean TRhit......Even though I'm from a hoops state......

Those "always"are not situations


And I am from a hoops college, St John's