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a five tool player,probably #1 on the team looks to me in the dugout after giving up a 350ft triple off the bottom of the wall.I said "you gave him a meatball and he drove it" The player says to me "f%$# you coach" from the mound.I ran out to the mound and took the ball,and put in a new pitcher.Player was told in the dugout to leave his uni on the bench and not to return.This player has been on the edge the whole season. Thoughts and comments on handling hotheads
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Let me get this right.
Your best player gives up a hit and he looks to you for encouragement or maybe for you to do your job and COACH.
So you insult him by telling he's throwing meat.
Who called the pitch ?
Is the kid a pitcher or is pitching because you asked him to ?
What would have happened if when he looked to you in the dugout.
You called time, went out and helped him with his confidence.
I agree the kid should have more respect for you and himself than to curse you, but do you really think you deserve his respect when you insult him fisrt ?
28 special

First of all - lets clarify that you are speaking to a hs player? Correct?
It is my understanding that there are very few 5 tool players in the major leagues, let alone the hs ranks.
From the report you give I am to understand that after your pitcher gave up this triple you yelled out to him from the dugout the fact that he pitched a meatball and the kid drove it for a triple. Right so far?

If I am on the mound and have delivered this pitch...quite frankly I am aware of it and am feeling quite defeated at this point. The purpose of you pointing out the mistake from the dugout would be for what reason?

The fact that this boy has been on the edge all season means what? The fact that he yelled what he yelled at you is inexcuseable. I would have gone out and taken the ball from him as well.

But lets look at the whole picture.
How are you supporting your pitchers...
IN both wins and losses.

My son has had his share of both.
A great kid who does not need to be yelled at from the dugout that he gave up a triple.
He has figured that out all by himself.
Karen---

You don't have a pitcher.
Sometimes, I wish I didn't either!!
We both have boys who don't need
to be told how to behave. They are
in it for the team and live and die
with their performance. If he were a
punk and disrespecting of a coach, he
would not have to wait and hear it
from the coach...believe me.

Who was the last MLB pitcher who "stunk"
and heard it from the dugout?????
TRhit

I agree with you. If a player were to curse me, he is gone. Period.

However, I seriously doubt that you would have responded to the triple the way that this coach did. Further, I would bet that this coach is rethinking his retort now and that is why he is posting.

Perhaps the coach and the player are learning a valuable lesson.

Ross.
28, I'm also wondering how you're having words with your player from about 100 ft away over the crowd excitment of the HR without screaming your flipping head off at him and showing him up

if your decision was to "can" him - then, so be it

but it sounds like you are your own worst enemy, not having a clue about handling different personalities in "heat of competition situations" -

you don't relate/react to an edgy player the same way as a laid back kid, ya know

ya sound like a "my way or the highway" type who may learn too late that there are better ways to have impact on your players & the game - and it sounds like ya chased a rare player simply becaused didn't have a dog to kick or a cooler to throw

ya really blew it - - -
but there is good news - - -


I saved on my car insurance

good luck, you'll need it
Last edited by Bee>
No one...not an employee nor a baseball player likes to be humiliated in front of their peers...there are appropriate ways to handle certain situations and by demeaning someone in public is not one of them..I know of no baseball player, be it young or old, who intentionaly sets out to fail....every pitch thrown, every play made, every at bat these kids want to be successful...to be berated for lack of not making the right throw teaches nothing...except builds resentment and anger...if the situation was handled correctly and the boy then offered an obsenity as a response then by all means dismissal is warranted...remember coaches you are moulding a young person and whether you believe it or not your actions do have an impact on the future of these kids....IMHO
I agree with the coach - anyone who cusses at him should be out. However, we have a situation at our high school - the coach calls every pitch, no discussion, no shaking off. My son is a young, very good fast ball pitcher and the coach constantly calls curve balls, 20-30 out of 50 pitches, and while my son is pitching he screams at him all the time. My son is not a good curve ball pitcher and has ended up the season depressed, miserable and tense and is now unable to pitch because he has no confidence left. But he has never cussed at the coach and I would certainly be horrified if he did. Respect is the word, but it should be on both sides, and it should be earned.
by mmac
"(our)coach constantly calls curve balls, 20-30 out of 50 pitches, and (son) has ended up the season depressed, miserable and tense and is now unable to pitch because he has no confidence left"

mmac, you may be doing some swearing of your own - 60% cb's is a recipe for disaster for his young arm

maybe his confidence is down because he has no arm left and his young career is vanishing before his eyes?
Last edited by Bee>
Going strictly by the original post it seems as though we have a young boy that needs to grow up and a coach who never did.


Maybe "you threw a meatball" doesn't mean anything in Queens but it
sure as heck does in most of the other parts of the country! Especially when said in front of both teams, both set of parents, and both coaches. Don't believe we have the whole story here.

Coach shouldn't have said what he said and player should not have responded the way he did. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Yes, Bee, you are absolutely right. Although my son was benched for a few games because he said something to the coach (nicely, I may add)about too many curve balls. He hasnt pitched much lately so his arm is still good for Legion.
Do any of you coaches have any suggestions about what to do about this HS coach. Talking to him or the AD is out of the question. Both of my sons would be benched next year.
28special--

Most coaches have allowed a player or two to be "on the edge' as you put it.....sometimes we chouldn't let it happen in the first place and that can be the coach's fault.....if a player is approaching that 'edge' it is the coach's responsibility to let him know that he is on the 'edge', like a warning, and nothing inappropriate will be tolerated.......if a player has been "on the edge" for some time but isn't aware of it then the coach hasn't done his job.

mmac--
one thing your son might be able to do is let the coach know that throwing so many curve balls may prevent the development of the fastball velocity.........and fastball velocity will separate the good pitchers (and a team's ability to beat good teams) from the average pitchers in the long run......curveballs are okay, but not at a 50% rate...way too much!!
I think the problem here is that the player was looking at the coach for encouragement, and the coach probably thought he was looking at him to some how blame him, and thus the coach was being immature and just deflecting the blame. The player got exactly the opposite of what he was looking for out of the coach, and he just spoke his mind, probably knowing in advance that he was going to get kicked off the team, but now caring because he didn't want to play for the coach anyway if the coach couldn't even encourage him when it was most needed.
The player should not have been yelled at from the dugout. Recently, my son had a bad game. He gave up three homeruns in two innings. The coach didn't yell at him from the dugout. After the third homerun the coach came out talked to him and then got the ball. My son went to the dugout sat down. Coach goes over to him and you can see him moving his arms showing what he did wrong.

The situation that 28 had could have been handeled better, but once the player said something that bad he should be gone.
Last edited by tasmit
o4 dad

The coach insulted the player. By telling him he threw a meatball pitch. Give me a break. Now it is the coaches fault that the player told him to *&^%)_)(. I would not care if the kid was the next coming of roger Clemens ,Sandy Koufax or Nolan Ryan wrapped into one. He is done and off the team. The question I ask is how does a kid get that way?
even if I believe the coach should have approached the player differently...

I can honestly say that my son has had things said to him either in jest or in frustration or even because the coach was trying to get him to step it up (although I don't think it's necessary to go extreme)....

if my son responded to a coach like that..he has no place being on the team anymore...

respect...regardless of the situation...it is expected...JMO
an out of line the player should be dealt with yes -
but, zero tolerance is a crutch for those unable, unwilling, or just too darn lazy to address a problem & solve it

the kid sounds like a firey competitor who could flourish with the right guidance

alot of good hs coaches would love to deal with that problem, and many have

anyway, I bet it was a sight they're still talking about - - - this kid leaving the park in his underarmor, jock, & stocking feet after coach demanded his uni
I remember when I was 11 or 12, and Mike Timlin was pitching for the Jays. And every time he pitched he blew the lead. So I was out pitching only for the 2nd or 3rd time in my life. Some big guy drills my pitch with a couple on for a homer. After he crossed home plate my dad yells out "way to go Mike Timlin!" I just looked at him and smiled.
I wouldn't have taken the coach's words from the dugout embarrassing. He's just simply saying he threw a bad pitch, no good reason to flip over. I would have cracked a smile and shrugged my shoulders, it's just a game and a couple runs. Even if coach did yell out something embarrassing I would be even more embarrassed to tell him to F off right in front of everybody. That's why I don't throw my bat across the field after every strike out like some guys. It's embarrassing. I just smile and say "whoops. Shouldn't of swung at that." Or I wouldn't say anything and run the play over in my head until I figure out how I missed the pitch. But there's no good reason for anyone to flip out in baseball, unless he gave up the Championship winning run, then he has a reason to be pissed.
Last edited by Underground
How many kids have not learned something because they were afraid to ask questions, or felt stupid asking them? Then later, when they didn't perform a technique as expected, the coach jumps their shorts about it. Who's fault is that?

Or, have you seen a situation where the kid isn't picking up on something, is afraid to say something and then the coach finds out later that he was afraid to ask.

The first thing I tell my kids is if you don't like me or something I say, or don't understand something I say, or can't grasp a concept I'm teaching, then say so ASAP, even if you finally do it out of frustration and anger and say it in a less than politically correct manner. I will not care about your language or your attitude if it leads to learning. I want the kid to learn. If he has to blow up first, fine. I want him to overcome the adult/kid intimidation barrier so he can ask questions and learn. I don't want him unable to break out because of too much respect for adults.

I'm here to coach, not make perfect angels. I understand frustration. I want the kid to know there is nothing he should let stand in the way of his baseball learning. Not even calling me names........as long as it ends up in mutual respect and learning.

I love Bob Huggins' (U of Cincinnatti basketball) approach with his players. I read somewhere that he allows them to yell back at him (we all know he does his share of yelling) as long as it has to do with learning the game of basketball. As long as it is done with the idea that we are a team/family and there is no quitting and it stays in house.

The #1 priority of any coach should be to teach his sport. He should be graded on how well his players improve/learn. If hard feelings, yelling and yes, a few cuss words, leads to learning then give me a lot of it.

I have never had a problem with this. Sometimes it takes a while for cool heads to develop. But, the reward after the kid finally gets it way outshines the temporary hard feelings.

And, it is up to the coach to lead the way and make sure things end properly.

I will be the first to admit some kids are off the charts in attitude. I believe there are times when they have to go for the good of the team. But, I'm so glad I grew up when I did (late 60's early 70's) when kids were allowed to be kids. They were allowed to make mistakes without suffering the death penalty. Today, coaches coach, teachers teach and principals principal with a throw away mentality. Nothing is more stupid than 0 tolerance when it comes to attitudes, cussing, etc. I'm OK with it for alochol, drugs and the serious stuff. But not for internal team problems.

I coached a kid in basketball that had an anger management problem. A very good kid, great parents, an eventual national honor society member with a grade point average of 3.75. He just happened to blow his stack every now and then due to pressure of game situations, pushing and shoving under the boards. He and I had our moments in practice. Not pleasant. I kicked him out of practice more than once. But, I also loved him and taught him basketball. Before every game I would approach the opposing coach and referees and tell them about this kid. Good kid, hot temper. I asked the refs to T him up if necessary but give me a chance to get to him before the second T or an ejection. I asked the opposing coach to forgive him before any incident. I also asked the player to work on it with me. I told him it was his responsibility to learn to control it. But that I would support him and stand up for him. We got it under control through 6th, 7th, 8th grade. When I got to him in the middle of his rage, he'd begin to calm and we'd take him out of the game, sit him for 3 or 4 minutes then put him back in. Probably had 1 or 2 incidents a season. When he went to high school no one worked with him. Everyone abandoned his particular need. He was on his own. No one would give him credit for being a good kid. All they could see was the bad which was a very small part of him. They treated him as a throw away. And.....he got ejected from a game, went into the locker room, kicked a few things around (no damage). They kicked him off the team. Later he told me they made him feel like a criminal. How sad for adults to do that.

All this kid needed was someone to care for him. But, instead, the coach, principal, and AD were too concerned with their image and egos.

I went to the school board meeting and was the only parent other than his to support him. All the others were concerned with "how they look" and how it makes the school look. Why a coach won't support a player with special needs gripes me.

This kid is now 21 years old, in college with a scholarship and working toward his degree. His problem is still there but since he isn't playing sports it's very rare. Everytime I see him he thanks me.

That's my special reward.
Last edited by Lamber
The last thing the pitcher needed to hear was a negative comment from his coach in a situation like that. The coach should have waited until the player came into the dugout and told him "Hey you missed your spot don't worry about it learn from it". Or something like that. Having said that the players response shows a total lack of respect for his coach regardless of the situation there is no excuse for it. I dont care what the situation is a player who would openly cuss his coach like that has bigger problems than baseball. I, like every other coach in the world have had players that did not like me for whatever reason but they will show me respect. If they want to privately get into with me I can respect the fact that they are standing up for what they believe in. But if they publicly disrespect me and I leave it unpunished I will have no controll over my team. The coach probaly lost some respect of his team by making that kind of comment during a game and showing up a player in the heat of battle when the player needed some positive back up. Both are wrong but the player is way out of line. To defend this kind of behavior by just blameing the coach is ridiculous.
Coach May

Negative comment? Wait till the player gets in the dugout? All he said was that the kid threw a "meatball". give me a break. You would have thought by some peoples reaction that he yelled and screamed ranted and raved. Are the players today so thinned skinned that we have to constantly worry about hurting their feelings? I played for many years and coached for many. As a player I never saw or heard a player go tell the coach to bleep. No player ever told me to go bleep. They might have said it when I was not around and as a player there were a few coaches that ticked me off but never would I do that. I have a good friend that is an assistant. A player called him an *&^&*** where it was heard by other players. Nothing done no apology. this young man who started the thread is in his first year. Is it going to get better or worse?
When your coach does something that is not appropriate - I would strongly suggest that you do not tell him/her to go f*** themselves.

When your boss at work does something that is not appropriate - I would also strongly suggest that you do not tell him/her to go f*** themselves.

For all the soap opera stories and bs rationalizations that will be presented to defend an out of control young man in our "new" society - the bottom line remains:

You will be fired - and you should be fired.

You do have a right to act like an obscene idiot - but you must also understand that you will be gone.

Just dont whine - and dont try to rationalize it IMO.
I think that the kid who said F*&^ you is a moron for doing it, but i think its important to find out in his mind why he did it, because i seriously doubt that it was just because of that instance of giving up a shot, it had to be something that built up to be a big thing and then when it was pinched it blew up, this kid probably felt as if he was being targeted in a sense, but if you are being targeted or if you feel as if you are all you have to do is go talk to the guy and if whoever you are talking to is human at all they will think about what you said, but i think it would be a wrong move to let him stay because then it would prove to the other guys its ok to say that stuff when you are a hot shot, and it isnt. I think that if the Kid really likes baseball he isn't going to give up, and kicking him off the team sends a pretty direct message that he can't play baseball with that attitude, but the kid is probably stupid so i think it would be best to for you - 28special -
to tell him that if he really likes baseball then he wont just stop, and to tell him the direct message of kicking him off the team, and see what happens.....see if he shows up at the field throwing or hitting on offseason school days and what not.
Last edited by Garvey
Garvey

You suggest you should try to find out why he did it? If I a the coach I do not particularly care why he did it. In the real world despite attempts by the blame it everybody else crowd it just does not work that way. I have been at my job for 33 years. The boss has been on me about this and that I go in and tell him (*&^%)you. looking at the want ads the next day.
I understand what you mean, but I saw someone once say on the Forums "One of the worst things in this world is wasted talent"....or something along those lines, and i agree with that line completely, which is why i posted about finding out why. and i also tend to be optimistic in most people, but i understand what you mean Will.
Last edited by Garvey
two brother's on the same team....both excellent players...

older one is up to bat and struggling...batter before him had shown a little attitude...seems to be contagious...

so brother who is in dugout starts yelling at big brother batting saying, "don't act like so and so" and belittles him further by making some crude remarks - not worth repeating.

My son told me he'd put up with these type of comments all summer, so he walked up to the player in the dugout who was spouting off remarks and promptly told him, "this is a team, you can yell at your brother at home all you want, don't do it here."

Kids will do whatever they get away with....

I asked him what the reaction was..he said he didn't say another word...

in my book no excuse for it...this player is talented, but a hot head in many situations....hope he gets his act together.
The most successful coaches I know are also masters at psychology. They know that each player has several buttons to push and that they can chose to be positive in every situation on the diamond. However, the coach and player are also competitors and emotions get the best of themselves. The one thing that I thought of here was that something is lacking in this relationship if a player gets to the point of cursing out the coach. It is never alright and I would relieve this young man of his obligation to the team. However, I would also have to ask myself how this relationship reached a point where the player showe such a lack of respect. Everyone thinks that coaching is so easy. In fact, it is extremely hard to do. You have to know so much about each kid. How was their day in school? How is the home life? Did they have a fight with their girl today? What are their grades and who can you get to tudor them? Then, consider everything about the game itself. I would make some simple recomendations to a new coach. First, never ask them to do anything that you won't do. Next, put in the hours and the work. Demonstrate your committment and make sure it is far above what you ask from them. Schedule a couple of practices each year where it is more team bonding than baseball. We have Peanut Day where I bring in soda, gatoraid, and peanuts in the shells. We practice then get in the dugout and crack those peanuts and talk baseball, school, girls, etc. Last but certainly not least, if you are going to kick them in the butt, you had better pat them on the back. I once heard a person say that you should give 4 posititives to each negative. I would suggest that a better relationship is 8 positives to a negative. JMHO!
coach B25

you mention there might be something lacking in the relationship for the player to curse out the coach. a relationship is between 2 people. I have had adverserial relationships with some of my superiors over the years. some were real jerks.I never told them to (*&)*(^^%$%. The kid was wrong. Face the music.

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