Talented Players vs. Hard Workers

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parents(which is what this site mostly consists of) don't really understand the different types of kids you encounter.

I think we do. I also think your list is too simplistic. Talent and hard work are not black and white and you'll learn that things and people change over time. You'll also learn that there is always someone more talented than you and someone willing to work harder than you....

For most of us, it's 'been there and done that'...

In which catagory do you put yourself and why?

I'm a player and would definately fall under the third category. I wouldn't say I'm not talented but I need to work harder than most kids to become as good as them.
With that being said, the second category makes me sad. I see so many kids with amazing talent who waste it. I would die to have these kid's talent. I just don't understand why they don't seize the opportunity.
I am the type of player who wants to look back at my career and say "I gave it everything I had, in the end I just wasn't good enough." That would not bother me one bit. As long as I have no regrets, I am happy.

My son got his favorite saying from this site "Hard work beats talent if talent doesn't work hard". It's the basic philosophy I have told him for years, he has a God given cannon for a right arm but he works hard , he does not want to see a kid outwork him to take his position--he is a pitcher and 3B but has not made up his mind which it will be (and all his coaches like him at both also)so at 15yo he will keep playing both till he is better at one than the other. As you said johnny "no regrets"

Some players have that natural ability that no one can really teach. However, if you have a player with the God given talent along with being coachable, plus having the dedication to work on honing his skills..... then you are witnessing someone very special!

I would have to say I would fall in number 3. I wasn't very athletic, I didn't lift a bunch of weight in the weight room, and I wasn't super fast. But I knew the game of baseball and I worked my butt off to do whatever I could to be successful. I was probably a below-average baseball player when it comes to talent, but I found my way onto the field by out hustling people and putting in the time to get the very best out of my talent.

I had the attitude when it came to conditioning that nobody was going to beat me. In football, I was a linemen but I ran with the running backs, quarterbacks, and receivers group because I would out-hustle them too.

What is talent?
sub 6.8 60
.400 average
+90 FB
a combination of the above

What is hard working?
extra running
extra throwing
extra bp
extra academic studies
a combination of the above


The phases "talented" and "hard working" are both scalable. What one sees as "talent" another sees as "better than average". What one sees as hard working another may see as somewhat underachieving. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and work ethic is a private thing measured within the soul of the player. I may say that my kid is talented and hard working, but compared to who? It is nothing more than my perspective. While anyone can pass judgment on these variable statements, IMHO, no one can pigeon hole player in a category and call it gospel because there is no benchmark as a standard.

Have you ever met a kid who you've said is talented and a hard worker but when it was all over he was just another player? More often than not I'll bet.

How often do you see that not so talented, but very hard working player that regardless of what he does couldn't hit his way out of a paper bag and the best place for him was on the bench? Those kids are on most teams.

IMHO, The Uptons and most major league players have a special category....."freaks of the game". Those players have something special that cannot be measured, or seen, that makes them tick.

While I see where DD2011 is going with this, and it is a good topic, I just have a hard time assigning a label on a player using an unmeasurable weighting system.

If that makes any sense

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While I see where DD2011 is going with this, and it is a good topic, I just have a hard time assigning a label on a player using an unmeasurable weighting system.

A friend of mine's son plays high school baseball with my son. He has an older son running college track. One day we were talking about baseball tools and potential. He said it's so much easier in a sport like track. Stopwatch on, stopwatch off, there's your ability. Baseball is so abstract and in the eye of the beholder.

I would have to say that our son is the talented/hardworking type..has this made his road any easier..not at all. Interesting but definitely not easier. He had a coach at the Div1 level give him a great scholarship, just to tell him that he was non-athletic. Not quite sure if they make it a habit of giving out scholarships to non-athletic players but he did. With the writing on the wall with this coach he transferred..and is now being looked at by many scouts..one that called him a 6 position player and would like to see him even on the mound as a closer...so thank God talent is in the eye of the beholder, because somewhere there is someone else that has better eye sight :-)and a different opinion on potential.

My son is talented and hard working.......... I never have to unload the dishwasher thanks to his above average hand-eye coordination!!!!

When the game starts and the players take the field does it matter? When it comes down to performing and helping your team win does it even matter? The only thing that matters is can you play the game. Not what type of player you are or what category the player falls into. I just see players on the field. The rf for the other team does not run very well but he has a cannon. I dont see "Oh no he is a hard worker and talented player."

Every kid gets where they are with a combo of talent , hard work , no so hard work , no hard work , not much talent , no talent , good luck , bad luck , the list goes on and on. But once they put on the uniform and step on the field quite simply is just doesnt matter. The only thing that matters is how they perform once they step on the field.

I have coached a few kids that were lazy , didnt love the game , would not work hard unless we pushed the heck out of them , never did anything on their own to get better - and they were still the best guys on the field. A couple were drafted. Both when faced with the fact that everyone else was just as talented but worked much harder , loved the game much more - they simply left the game and moved on with life.

Most kids like this reach that point much earlier. Some at 9-10 yr old ball. Some in Middle School. Some at the hs level and some at the college level. It all depends with these kids just how much God given talent they have and how long that will allow them to succeed without hard work and passion for the grind of the game.

The special guys in the game are not only talented but love the game. Because they love the game they develop a strong work ethic in the game because they learn this will allow them to reach their full potential at what they truly love. The bottom line is - it is worth it to them. To others it is not.

HS baseball is full of not very talented kids who work very hard because they love the game. They get the most out of their ability and they leave the game with no regrets. So the bottom line is the game at the HS level and below is full of players that come from every category of the game. As you move up the ladder of the game players start to become more and more alike in their work ethic , talent levels and love of the game.

But really it doesnt matter once the game starts how they got there or what got them there. It all comes down to how you perform once the game starts.

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Originally posted by Coach May:
It all comes down to how you perform once the game starts.

Good post CM and the above is the truth.

I remember when son went off to college, he told me the hardest working player on his first year team was one who played the least.

Well said, Coach May. Everybody in college has talent and desire...the really special ones have a passion that most don't have and are able simply to perform and do things that most can't or don't do.

"You have to play with fear and arrogance"...Crash Davis (or something to that effect)in "Bull Durham".

Have to agree alot with that line in that you have to be arrogant enough to believe you are the best and deserve to be on the field but have the fear that someone better will come along and take away something that you love, playing baseball.

I had that arrogance in HS but got a real dose of the fear at my 1st college practice. In reality, instead of arrogance I had what Nuke said in "Bull Durham" said...."ignorance". Frankly, I was stunned by just how talented some of the other players were and what they could do on the field.

TPM's son nailed what you see often in college, and I am still picking the splinters outta my rear after after all these years. I was like "Rudy"; all those practices with almost no game time. My girlfriend didn't believe I was on the team for most of one season; my bullpen teammates told me to get a note from the coach to give to her as proof.....I probably would have if I thought Coach remembered how to spell my name.LOL.

Two seasons and two severe ankle injuries later, baseball was over and I had more time to spend with my NEW girlfriend....and still wishing I was back in the bullpen.

Baseball Dad 46,

Glad that you brought up the quote that I posted here many years ago. My son(and I) stole it from a hockey broadcaster back when my son was a freshman in HS and this site was still wet behind the ears!

If your working at something you love is it really work??

My son is a very hard worker from my point of view, when he was younger I would get home from work and it was lets play catch, lets go hit, hit me fly balls, hit me ground balls, I need more weights, time me in the 60.

I think it was work for me, but to him it certainly wasn't work he loved doing it.

Now thank goodness he is at a College where others take care of his "work"

Not So Talented, but Very Hard Working

I will miss the times we play catch or we are in the cage. I don't know if i would say Very Hard working, but he does work at it.

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think it was work for me, but to him it certainly wasn't work he loved doing it.

For me, I spent many hours this way with my son. I am pretty sure he didn't consider it "work."

But I know for a fact that I didn't!

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Originally posted by Rob Kremer:

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think it was work for me, but to him it certainly wasn't work he loved doing it.

For me, I spent many hours this way with my son. I am pretty sure he didn't consider it "work."

But I know for a fact that I didn't!

I feel exactly the same way - no work in that what so ever.

Want me to hit you a bucket of grounders? You bet...

Hard work is everything...the best players talentwise will weed themselves out if the work ethic is not there. Trust in hard, SMART work. Work on all the little things, and don't re-invent the wheel. The greatest part about baseball is that the best athletes DO NOT make the best baseball players. That's why it's AMERICA's game. Hard work is rewarded...ALWAYS. The benefits are seldom instant, but they will be there. You must have confidence in that, or move on to something else. I've seen 5'8" guys become all-americans, and go on to very successful professional careers, just as I've seen slow guys, or guys with below average arms. One tool is often times all it takes...and ANYONE can develop one tool.

My point is this...if you love the game, and want to play it in college/professionally, go for it...and scr*w the "talented" kids. Deal with what you can control...YOU! Otherwise, you are escalating issues that are beyond your control. The cream ALWAYS rises to the top.

For the record...many of the parents here have played this game at a high level, and/or have life experience that a young player cannot yet fathom. Embrace it. You'll be glad you did. I hope this helps.

Thank you for weighing in, and welcome to this site.

My son works his butt off. That is something he can control and he will continue to do. Playing The Game, as well as the preparation, mentally and physically, is his passion.

I don't understand the statement by TPM that indicated that one of the hardest working players on her son's team saw little playing time.

That definitely has not been the experience we have seen or hope to emulate.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Coach May:
It all comes down to how you perform once the game starts.

Floridafan,
Coach May's statement is why I made my statement.

I have seen many players work their butts off, and I am sure that all of our player's have done so to get where they are, but in the end, performance on the field (and sometimes other circumstances) determines who plays and who doesn't.

I would say I am also under number 3. As a young player in Little League, I got stuck with the daddy ball team in which I played maybe 10 innings for 2 seasons. After switching teams, I started to become better and better. I have a long way to go no doubt about it, but with hard work you can become a good player.

Nice post Coach May. You hit the nail on the head.

Well I think we forgot something, with regards to HS baseball.

What about politics?

Agreed, but if you think the politics is bad in high school, just wait til college and pro ball...where it's pay for play, and you can sit behind a guy that can't hold your jock cuz he's got more scholarship money invested in him, or he's a bonus baby. I promise you, it's far more frustrating. Politics is part of the game, but if you're good enough, the cream always rises. Take care of what you can control...the rest is out of your hands.

quote:

Originally posted by JCirone11:
Agreed, but if you think the politics is bad in high school, just wait til college and pro ball...where it's pay for play, and you can sit behind a guy that can't hold your jock cuz he's got more scholarship money invested in him, or he's a bonus baby. I promise you, it's far more frustrating. Politics is part of the game, but if you're good enough, the cream always rises. Take care of what you can control...the rest is out of your hands.

J, when you say "frustrating," do you mean for the player or parent? From your last point, it is clear you have been exposed to MLB. That is where you learn the "control what you can control" emphasis.
But, when you get to Milb, every player is talented. Not all of them are hard workers. Not every organization will give a chance to a hard worker who is talented but not a high draft pick.
But most do.
In Milb, if a player truly works hard, is there early, stays late, and is talented, some coach is going to notice.
Of course, when that happens and the player gets that "chance," he needs to perform. He needs to perform so they cannot take him out of the line up.
When you look at the number of reps a Milb player gets in ST and over the course of 144 games, a player can earn a spot in the organization.
The real frustrating part is that he needs to earn it every year while the big $$$$ players don't.

I think the working hard part becomes a problem as it enters the mental part of the game. You have to work hard but keep it in perspective. Your working, working, working, and if you get the expectations that all this work is instantly going to pay off then it becomes frustration that you did all that work and it doesnt seem to pay off. So you got to love the game, love the process not really get caught up in the results, it is what it is..
You got to love just working on your game not just working on it as you expect payoff. I have seen kids that are hard workers get mentally bogged down with the fact they put alot of time in on something and they are still struggling. Highly talented kids who havent had to work hard as much, have that more laid back relaxed approach that alot of time plays into them being able to do well as they haven no mental frustrations. I see alot of time a coach will pull up a very talented freshman kid to only ruin him with the frustration of trying too compete with kids that are 2 or 3 years older than him, plus these days you get alot of kids held back 2 years. I see kids that are like old enough to be in college playing as a Junior on a high school team acting like a big stud, I can only feel for the younger kids that have to try and compete for a spot. Mental part of the game is always there and seems to be a biggest part of the game.

Agree 2011--mental part of game is huge. I know what your talking about with hard work and pay off. My 15 yo did alot of speed training over winter and he is faster--but he has several times this year been thrown out by 1/2 step on infield hits--says he can't wait to do more so he can beat those out--and yes we realize no matter how fast you will get thrown out by 1/2 step agian--but that is the motivater to think "If only I was a little faster I could raise my batting average 50 points or more".

"Hard work beats talent when talent does not work hard"--I stole this phrase from a poster and will repeat it often . I think this rings truer and truer as you move up in levels of play!

What someone said about the "eye of the beholder" can be so true. In the case of outfielders, the one that stands there, gets a late break, then makes a sliding catch gets the oohs and the ahhs versus the one that gets a good jump, gets to where he needs to be, and makes the "easy" catch.