Talking point in college games - BBCOR bats

Interesting that the announcers on the Longhorn Network are complaining about small ball.  

I was under the impression that Coach Garrido's philosophy was based on 1 station at a time, bunt, bunt, bunt and then bunt some more.  

From what I've read that was his philosophy when the ball was flying out the park back in the juiced bat era too.

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com/bus_tour

www.twitter.com/PlayInSchool

BBCOR bats take the fun out of watching for the casual observer. Other than baseball die-hards, most fans dont find the game as entertaining without the long-ball or big velo. Right or wrong, the MLB was at its peak over the last couple decades when Bonds, Sosa and McGwire were dropping bombs in the 90s. No doubt that people that weren't fans of baseball tuned in to watch the homerunfest of the 90s. Again...right or wrong, which I'm not debating.

You are correct about the coaching philosophy at Texas.

The prevailing theme though, as I remember, is that they think that most teams should have at least one big bopper in the lineup capable of double digit homeruns over the course of a season. And with the current bats, they say that isn't happening much.

As of March 17, there are currently two players in Divsion I with double digit homerun totals.  Texas has maybe 4 hr's total. Their cleanup hitter, Mark Payton, is around 5'7" but can hit like crazy. I don't think he has a homer this year, though if he played in a smaller park, he might have had a couple.

Stafford,

If you believe that the best minds in the game are in the booth, there’s little anyone can do for you. Announcers aren’t paid to provide a wealth of accurate information. They’re paid to talk, and that talk is generally in the form of things they THINK are true rather than that really are true.

I think it's utterly amazing that you can determine what I believe.Thanks for your insight into my crippled mind.

Originally Posted by Stafford:

I think it's utterly amazing that you can determine what I believe.Thanks for your insight into my crippled mind.

When you say you’ve “heard announcers say …” as though what they’ve said is a statement of fact, what choice is there but to believe its what you think. But for the record, I don’t think your mind is crippled at all, just naive.

Your pitchfork digs a deeper hole with each new compliment.

Once again, a civil discussion goes south because somebody decides to personally attack a contributor for no reason whatsoever.

Seriously, Stat4Gnats? What the hell is wrong with you?

Back to the topic at hand: I hear plenty of bellyaching about BBCOR bats, but I do wonder if the number of HRs has increased in the years since its introduction as batters/programs work on mechanics and increasing batspeed, etc.

I think the hot bat era was scary in terms of potential for injury, and rather absurd in terms of illegitimate power/offense. But I'm no expert...

FWIW from what I have seen in HS this year the balls are coming of the BBCOR bats better this year than last. Improvements in bat tech or perhaps players getting adjusted to the smaller sweet spot?

Batty67,

The numbers have improved because the manufacturers have gotten the bats closer to the allowable limits, and I’m guessing there’s been a change in the “style” of hitter coaches are sticking in the lineups as well.

This is just a guess, but I’m thinking simple acceptance of the new standard and just getting on with playing the game has helped things too. Here in Ca, our HSs went to BBCOR the same year the NCAA did, and my perception was a lot of players were “trying” to swing harder, thinking the ball wouldn’t come off the bat well if hit well, but that was never the case. Many were complaining about BBCOR, and almost everyone was talking about it. The 2^nd year things got better, and now balls are leaving yards again.

It will never be like the final year of rolling the composite BESRs or the days of the drop 5 Titanium bats,  but things have settled down and I seldom hear any talk about it at all, other than folks who are just coming into the HS years and been used to still being allowed to use BESR or BPF standards.

I'm happier with the BBCOR game.  The difference between a wood bat and the BBCORs is that the sweet spot or the "semi-sweet" spot is still larger.  Plus of course the program needs fewer bats because they don't break them.  I think this years' bats are a bit hotter but the game is still more balanced.  I just want a pitcher who makes a good pitch to be rewarded.  Hitters who understand themselves, what the pitcher is trying to accomplish and the game situation are doing fine. 

I think that kids have gained more confidence in the tools that they are using after a year of use under their belts...

My son had to use a BBCOR bat when his 15u team (he played up a year) became a 15u team. He spent the WInter and Spring of 2012 using a drop 5 and switched to the BBCOR the moment AS Juniors was over. He's worked long and hard and gotten superior instruction so he whips the bat around with plenty of batspeed using solid mechanics. It takes time and reps but accepting that a BBCOR bat is the law of the land and that's what everyone uses is key. I definitely think that discussions about BBCOR bats are mostly about which one has the best perceived "swing feel" given they all more-or-less performa about the same.

  I want to point you to a study by Brown University and funded by USA BASEBALL that compared wood bats to non-wood bats. Part of the conclusion reads: "Two non-wood bat models out-performed wood bats and 8 of the 10 non-wood bats performed similar to or less than wood." So now you have some research and facts to form an accurate opinion about wood vs. non-wood bats and the performance of each.

Don't go confusing us with facts! Can you post a link to the most recent study?  I'm interested but I can't find anything newer then 2009. 

Can you provide a URL for this study.  I'd like to see it and compare it to the independent studies that demonstrate an opposite conclusion.

No they have not.  NCAA has the batting stats on line from around 1970 forward.  They show a sharp drop off in hits, doubles, HR's, BA, etc from when BBCOR was introduced that has not yet rebounded.  But it hasn't been that long.

Southpaw7,

I'm a wanna-be bioengineer who would love to see the study that you quote.  Everything that I've seen Brown publish concluded the opposite of what you've sited.  I don't doubt that have conducted more recent research on BBCOR bats, but I can't find any reference to it on their web site.

The pre-BBCOR studies below all conclude that "Metal bats can clearly out perform wood bats."

2000 Crisco-Greenwald Batting Cage Study Slide Show

http://65.181.134.127/img/home...-cisco-greenwald.pdf

2000 Crisco-Greenwald Batting Cage Study Document

http://www.asbweb.org/conferences/2000/pdf/170.pdf

2002 Batting performance of wood and metal baseball bats
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F11088362_Batting_performance_of_wood_and_metal_baseball_bats%2Ffile%2Fd912f5075715949e3e.pdf&ei=P11KUcaHCqfv0QGkkYDYAg&usg=AFQjCNFyPzSTz_o00Qc78r3eLuoc9mk4og&bvm=bv.44158598,d.dmQ

  First off, let me tell you that both wood and non-wood have a weight that can be measured in 2 different ways that are not the same weight. Bats have an actual weight and a swing weight that varies due to the balance point of the bat.

   The study was done by the Dept. of Orthopaedics , Warren Alpert Medical of Brown University and Rhode Island Hospital. Their research can be found at www.brownbiomechanics.org

   Keep in mind also, that the BBCOR standard was set against maple wood bats with the hitting  results to be the same. If you use a bat with a harder wood like hickory, you would agree with others that the drop 3 hickory will out-perform both the metal bat and the maple.

MIDATLANTICDAD-

I'm a wanna-be bioengineer who would love to see the study that you quote.  Everything that I've seen Brown publish concluded the opposite of what you've sited.  I don't doubt that have conducted more recent research on BBCOR bats, but I can't find any reference to it on their web site.

All the studies you sited are 10 or more years old and there have been many different changes in both wood and non-wood bats.

Thanks southpaw7,

With that hint I think I found the study that you quoted.  It appears to be from 2012.

<cite>www.asbweb.org/conferences/2012/abstracts/152.pdf</cite>

What I get from that study is that the A or K non-wood bats produced significantly higher batted ball speeds than all of the other bats.

There must liability issues with publishing the manufacturers of all the test bats.  It doesn’t even specify aluminum vs composite, and it doesn’t indicate whether or not they tested BBCOR 0.50 certified non-wood bats.  They also lump the three wood bats together into one number.

My son swings wood almost exclusively in the summer and he loves it, but during the high school season he’s competing against non-wood.  His power is probably his best asset, so I try to find him the hottest bat possible.  He’s swinging an 2013 Easton S1 this year, and I have not been disappointed (after getting over the price).

Regarding hickory, I can’t find any BBCOR numbers for hickory, but this is an interesting study of ash and birch.  Note the impact of location on the barrel on BBCOR numbers.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/docum...2012_ruggiero001.pdf

Are you saying that the BBCOR of hickory is >0.50?  I would think that the power advantage from hickory would come from its heavier density and weight.  If you cut hickory to a pattern that yields a drop 3, don’t you lose that advantage?

  Any wood bat does not need BBCOR certification although many manufactures get the certification for advertising purposes. The hardness of hickory can be compared to other woods in this manner. Hickory ranks at 1820 vs. maple at 1450 and ash at 1320. As a comparison, pine ranks at 1225. When you compare the differences between hickory and maple, you are at a staggering 375 points vs. only 95 to ash and 225 when compared to plain old pine. Hickory is the wood that old-timers used at 42 to as much as 54 oz.

  No two bats have the same density, hence the difference in weight. With special curing, hickory can be cut in a 271 or 110 or 141 profiles and weigh in at -2 or-3.

  Hickory has never been tested for BBCOR standards so I can't say were it falls, but I can tell you that our field testing and player evaluations tell us that the hickory out-performs maple or ash and is at least as good or better than most non-wood bats at a fraction of the cost. When you add in the fact that you could have multiple profiles to use with several different bats, the players think they have a distinct advantage. Several states and leagues along with D2 schools are currently all wood with more being added each year.

Southpaw7 that's good stuff.  Thanks for the information.

Southpaw7:

So, a big, strong player capable of swinging a heavier bat will have an advantage with hickory over maple or ash? Correct?

Are you saying that a hickory bat could have more pop (for lack of a better term) than composite and metal BBCOR bats?

Several states and leagues along with D2 schools are currently all wood with more being added each year.

Can you list the states that are all wood? I’d love to compare their numbers.

Southpaw7

If there are players using hickory who are getting better results than with a high performing BBCOR bat, I'm all for that.

I'm an amatuer woodworker, and I do disagree with you about one thing.  I've never seen a bat made from one solid piece of wood with a BBCOR certification.  That is the only type of bat exempt from the standard.  All the BBCOR certified wood bats that I've seen are laminates or composites.

Also, the hardness of hickory is directly related to it's density and weight.  Sugar maple is 39.3 lb/cf and pignut hickory is 46.8 lb/cf, or about 19% heavier (kiln dried to 12% MC).  You've peeked my interest in lightweight hickory bats.

  New Mexica and North Dakota along with the New York City hs league are all wood bat with almost every other state athletic association having taken up some sort of conversation about converting in future years while leaving the $400 metal bats to the U14 fanatics. Even many of the younger travel ball teams are practicing/training with wood as well as many high schoolers.

   When I speak of wood bats, I am not referring to composite or laminated bats.

You need not be bigger or stronger to swing a hickory bat. The hics will be the standard 33/29 or 33/30. The may weigh an once more but all bat weights very from time to time due to various factors. One thing we show players is that MOST of the time their 33/30 metal bat doesn't weigh 30 oz and we have weighed bats as heavy as 33 oz that have a 33/30 sticker on the bat.

  Whether a hic has more pop? It is in the eye of the beholder/swinger. Since a baseball compresses when hit by a bat, it stands to reason that the denser wood should expel the ball better than a less dense wood. Testing both here in the US and in the Dominican Republic have shown that the bats out-perform hitting wise and durability wise than maple bats that technically perform the same way as BBCORS.

Not exactly accurate.  Solid wood bats do not need certification.

Southpaw7,

Thanx. While I wouldn’t exactly say NM or ND were exactly leaders in HS baseball, they certainly are states. And NYC is one of only two assns. that use pitch counts, so they certainly aren’t new to blazing new trails. I’d be interested in reading about how it was those places came to their decision.

http://www.lcsun-news.com/las_cruces-news/ci_19901349

Please read this article from New Mexico as to the reasons behind the majority of high schools involved in the voting for this ruling.

We have used wood bats in our Area Code games and Goodwill Series High School events for 25 years. Robert and I will continue to endorse this philosophy.

Bob

Good stuff southpaw7, just curious, where does bamboo fall in the hardness scale?

I'm not southpaw and I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know that bamboo is a grass and not wood and has to have a BBCOR logo to be legal.

The Japanese HS Coaches use the bamboo bat as a teaching tool.

If you do not hit the perfect, the bat will "sting" in your hands.

Bob

<www.goodwillseries.org>

Hardness will depend on how the bamboo is put together and laminated.  Bamboo bats tend to be very hard and very tough.  But they can still be broken by a good inside fast ball.  ;-)

Here's a link that might give you some ideas:  Wood Hardness 

The NCAA protocol says, “Solid bats constructed from a single piece of wood are allowed for NCAA competition without being tested for NCAA bat standard compliance.”

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/rules/...20FINAL%205%2009.pdf

Jimmy03, that’s an interesting distinction you make (the rule does say "wood").  In practical terms it doesn’t really matter since there are no single piece bamboo bats.  Bamboo has to be milled, processed and/or laminated to make something the size and density of a bat billet.

Bamboo scores very high on the hardness test, but I would say the standard ball test just happens to fit bamboo’s characteristics perfectly for a high score. As you would probably guess, raw bamboo is half the density of maple, so manufacturers use processes like “strand-woven” to make it more dense.  Also, unlike wood, the characteristics of bamboo vary wildly depending on its age.

I’ll take a one piece wood bat made from North American hardwood any day.

Midatlantic- If you are interested in trying to turn some bats, you can call the number below for maple, ash, or HICKORY round billets. These are either grade A or MLB stock.

To buy any of these bats, you can call the same number. Use the number below for a better price and tell them you are calling from hsbaseballweb.com. Later today I will try to send along some pictures of finished products they have.

330-590-0499 after 2:30

Dave Neal and Kyle Peterson discussed the bats and the lack of offense during the recent SEC broacast of Texas A&M vs. South Carolina. I'm paraphrasing, but they mentioned that more and more coaches are saying they thought the game was fine the way it was with the older (BESR) bats.

During the game, they interviewed SC Athletic Director Ray Tanner and briefly discussed the issue. He basically agreed with what they were saying but an out ended the  inniing..

I am not really seeing a huge difference. The big hitters at the HS level are still hitting home runs.  I saw two 400 footers from two guys in one of our games last week.  It has eliminated the "oops" hr's, which is fine in my book....lol