Teach Grounders, or teach for power?

Certain situations of course call for ground balls.

But I generally agree with you. I tell my pitchers to throw ground balls. So why would I want my hitters to hit ground balls?

I have heard about coaches who teach hitting groundballs. I think that to teach that to a potential hitter is detrimental to the hitter and only employed by a coach that is more interested in winning than developing his player. The arguement has always been that there is more opportunity for the defense to make a mistake, therefore more opportunity for a hitter to reach base.

But that argument is dependent on failure to execute by the defense. A power approach develops a positive approach for a hitter, and one that may earn him a spot on a team after HS. Assuming we are not takling about a 6.2-6.4 runner that can bunt his way on.

Power is the name of every game, you can't rely on your opponents weakness.

Who needs instruction to hit ground balls?

quote:

Since more hits are registered hitting into the air, why do coaches persist in teaching to hit grounders?

Quincy ... I believe you may have been misled or are probably including "line drives" as fly balls (most likely). But, they don't occur near as often as flies or ground balls.


A few years ago I saw some hitting stats based upon a two year study of all batted balls (in NCAA).
The results, generally speaking as I can't put my hands on this, were as follows;

FLY BALLS (account for approx. 41% of batted balls):
- Only 2% resulted in Home runs beyond the fence.
- BAvg on fly balls was less than .200 (about .186).
Conclusion; don't swing for the fences and if you hit the ball in the air, it will most likely be caught.

GROUND BALLS (account for approx. 44% of batted balls):
- BAvg on ground balls was slightly over .200 (about .210 I think).
Conclusion; statistically you are better served hitting a ground ball than a fly ball. There is the additional possibility of a fielding error (thrower and receiver) or a throwing error granting you a free base! The reason a Coach (particularly at the Youth level), would prefer ground balls to flies.

LINE DRIVES (accounted for less than 15% of all batted balls, I believe).
- An astounding 80% resulted in base hits!
Conclusion; Strive to hit line drives (preferably in the gaps!).

BAvg findings in MLB probably differs with Wood vs. the NCAA metal bats where more ground balls could "find the holes" quicker. But, would bet the instance of flies, grounders and line drives would be similar.

I include line drives, home runs, singles, doubles, triples, bloopers, dinkers, flares and any other ball hit into the air.

Any non-grounder.

The outfielders have the largest area to cover with the fewest players.

Your statistical analysis is deceptive because line drives are also 'balls hit into the air'.

quote:

Your statistical analysis is deceptive because line drives are also 'balls hit into the air'.

Certainly could be! Seems any statistical data can be interperted to prove varied points. Not my findings though, but those of the NCAA.

IMO; The poignant point, if there is one, is that when you strike a round ball with a round bat there are three possible results; a line drive (the hitter's desired result), a fly ball or a ground ball. Line drives find holes ALL OVER the field. "Fly" balls are most often run down (this is true at any level) resulting in an out. Ground balls provide for a greater chance of getting on base than does the fly. There are more infielders thus less ground to cover, but outfielders have longer, in time, to get to the baseball.

Came down to your city over the Christmas break (USF) hoping for warmth. Didn't get as lucky this trip!

It snowed this morning here in Ocala! LOL!

Global Warming

or is it Climate Change this week?

quote:

It snowed this morning here in Ocala! LOL!

Raised in Fort Myers, daughter, grandchildren and parents still there ............... it's not supposed to be that cold there! Snow flurries in Ocala, now that's blasphemy.....

Not advocating just given you a reason. If I hit a ball in the air what are the chances of making an error on it? If I hit the ball on the ground the chances of making an error are significantly greater. This is why many coaches believe, right or wrong, on teaching there kids to pound the ball into the ground. I believe that all players are different. There are those that have home run power and need to be taught MENTALLY and PHYSICALLY how PROPERLY lift a ball. Those that do not have that power need to be taught how to hit hard ground balls and line drives.

quote:

I believe that all players are different.

Coach, my question to a Coach of amateur players would be; why teach anything other than the goal of hitting a line drive? If 10 line drives net you 8 hits (as the NCAA study reflected) and your hitting .800, would you really want to teach anything else? In that arena, the ball leaves the yard when the hitter "slightly misses" his objective target.

Now in the Pro's, after you've learned to properly center a baseball, learning to loft the ball into a short right-field porch (ala Texiera, or Ortiz upon departing Minnesota) can be a very rewarding and lucrative endeavor.

quote:

In that arena, the ball leaves the yard when the hitter "slightly misses" his objective target.

Wrong....

Prime9,

Amen. That should never happen in Ocala.

Richie Ashburn (HOF) always publicly said his homeruns were mistakes. I have heard many, many MLB players say what you said about "slightly misses".

I guess the reverse argument some want to make is if you are intentionally trying to hit a pitch for a HR and end up with a line dive double in the gap, that means the liner was a mistake.( Not even close to what YOU are saying or mean.)

Then again, they were MLB players so what do they know? They need to head to the slow pitch softball leagues to get it right....LOL.

Richie Ashburn hit 29 home runs in 15 seasons.

Not quite the example of a power hitter.

Alot of hs coaches teach hit the ball on the ground. Why? They are trying to win. And when you hit alot of ground balls your chances increase greatly at the hs level of play. Fly balls that dont leave the year are almost always outs. It takes one play to get a hitter out on a fly ball. Catch the ball. On a ground ball it has to be hit where someone can field it. It has to be fielded cleanly. Then the throw has to be accurate , in time , be caught. So many hs coaches teach hit the ball on the ground.

It makes sense if your goal is to simply give your hs team a better chance to win , I guess. Of course teaching hitters to hit properly and teaching them to hit line drives and bombs might result in more fly ball outs. I teach kids how to hit , period. The goal is a line drive somewhere , mashed or a bomb hit where no one can catch it. We will take a hard ground ball in a hole. Other than that I dont care to see a ground ball hit and would never teach a hitter to simply hit a ground ball.

We have won and won alot by teaching our hitters to hit , period. And our goal is a line drive seed or a bomb.

My point is it is taught at the hs level and that is why it is taught.

Teach players to hit the ball hard. Develop a good swing that will allow then to keep their hands back to let the ball get deep and then explode on it. A hard hit ball on the ground, on the line or in the air is difficult to catch. I tell my guys all the time I don't care where you hit it as long as you hit it hard. More times that not a hard hit ball will end up good for the hitter. It may be a hit or an error but the result is something good for the offense.

Quincy,

I know that probably as well as any on this board; met him many times when I was a kid. He also said he could've hit alot more HRs but that wasn't his game that got him to the MLB. But you are correct, Ashburn wasn't a prototypical power guy by any stretch.

Don't think Prime9's point was about power itself but rather the end result. I know for a fact that I've hit alot of line drives harder than any HR I ever hit yet some mi****s (less than solid) went out of the park. Yeah I was tickled pink about the HR but knew I had missed hitting the ball perfectly.

I wish those line drives had been dingers; everybody might be posting videos of me.LOL. Funny thing is I never had a shoulda,woulda,coulda moment over a line drive basehit.

I can control what pitch I swing at and how good of a swing I put on it. That's about it; just trying to hit the ball pure and hard somewhere. I would hazard a guess that 99.99% of good MLB, college and HS hitters would say something similar.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:

quote:

I believe that all players are different.

Coach, my question to a Coach of amateur players would be; why teach anything other than the goal of hitting a line drive?

I do teach all of my players to hit line drives. I reread my post and I am not sure how me saying that I believe that all players are different equals I do not teach my players to hit line drives.

Coach, my bad. That wasn't the connection I was trying to make. Just simply agreeing with you that players are different (i.e., styles; slap, pull etc). But, that withstanding, Seems a good objective would be to teach all learning amateur hitters that the objective is to "center the baseball" to achieve optimum results?

I asked that of you specifically because you seem so well versed on all aspects of coaching that I've seen you post on.

quote:

Richie Ashburn (HOF) always publicly said his homeruns were mistakes. I have heard many, many MLB players say what you said about "slightly misses".

I don't believe this...Can you post just one quote verifying this?

MLB hitters do not consider a homerun to be a mistake on their part...They try to hit homeruns...

Waiting on a quote....

quote:

MLB hitters do not consider a homerun to be a mistake on their part...They try to hit homeruns...

I can't say that I've ever heard an elite hitter say that his NORMAL approach was to try to hit a home run. Typically, I hear TV interviews
of MLB hitters stating; "the bombs occur when I'm just trying to to make good contact." I wouldn't suggest that there aren't certain at bats on a particular pitch, that a hitter wouldn't go for the long ball but it's not the norm nor does it most often produce the desired result.

Bluedog,

Read his book. That should suffice.

Didn't know he had a book? Too bad; I did. Didn't know about the movie of his career? Sorry, but I did.

Obviously you never had the opportunity to hear Ashburn and Kalas broadcast Phils games; you'd have heard it yourself. You probably couldn't pick up the broadcasts from the softball field.

Ever have a chance to meet Ashburn? No, too bad; I met him several times when he was still playing. Ever talk to Ashburn or personally know somebody that played alongside Ashburn? No, really thats too bad. I know several guys that played with Ashburn; some Phils, some Mets.

Do you even know who Richie Ashburn was? Obviously, no you do not; yet you profess to know Ashburn's hitting approach. Not very truthful...shame on you; you know better than that.

Now, please...how about a quote from a MLB hitter saying " I intentionally hit that ball out on that particular pitch. I planned it that way. I always try to hit HRs with every swing I take and can predict which swing will be a HR". Really would support your claim about the MLB hitting appraoch.


Just one...I did say please.

Waiting for a quote...being that you have never directly responded to a question except with a question, the wait could be a long one.

"They try to hit homeruns"...Bluedog, please say you aren't serious before the men in the white coats come to get you. That is a bit much even for you and you are heading into uncharted territory.

I'll see Chipper Jones, Brian McCann and Jason Varitek later this month. Based on your statement, they could use some advice from you as obviously they are clueless about their hitting approach because none of them had 30 HRs last year. I'll get you their addresses; Varitek lives really close by. I'm sure they would also love a swing analysis from a slow pitch softball guy; think of the big money awaiting you once word gets out to other MLB players. I will even buy your DVD if you make one with your hitting philosophies; know some HS/college players that could use it.

"I don't believe this"...not my problem.

Just as I figured, no quotes....

Not surprising....

Bluedoggie,

It's really nice that you are so concerned being that you are the one poster that has not directly answered a question or offered an explaination on any subject posted this board. I will say your consistency in this has been amazing and a record that won't soon be broken.

It's in the book; I ain't gonna buy it and read it for you. Sheesh.

Got YOUR quote yet? Be truthful...you can't post a video and then mis-analyze it to explain your point. Better hurry as the white coat guys are just outside your door.

Good luck with your slow pitch season this year; got a sponsor yet? I'll talk to Jones,McCann and Varitek about it if you need one. Hey, its the least I could do.

Bye-bye.

Actually, Quincy had an interview with Mantle posted a while back where he said, "I tried to hit a Home Run everytime I swung". I've also heard hitters say they never try to hit a HR, it just happens once in a while, but the real truth is, 95% try to drive the ball 95% of the time. They may not be "trying" to hit it out of the ball park, but they put enough effort into it that if they do catch it just right it will leave the yard. There is a really good DVD called "Hitters on hitting" that has different players stating what they believe.

Power,
Heard Mantle say that in an interview myself; he also said later during the interview perhaps it wasn't the smartest thing to do. Loved watching him utilize his tremendous talent and hated watching him waste those same talents due to his personal demons. Imagine what he would have been with more discipline even playing on one leg.

I agree nearly all hitters are usually intentionally trying to hit/drive the ball hard; would not agree they are always trying to hit a home run. Kinda like saying a every MLB pitcher is always trying to strikeout every batter he faces in a game.

For every Mantle there is a Nellie Fox, Phil Rizzuto or David Eckstein. Good hitters focus on what they do well; Mantle with Nellie's hitting approach would be a waste of potential power but Nellie using Mantle's approach would have been real comedy. Mantle was extremely strong to the point he could mis-hit a pitch and still take it out; most players don't have that luxury. Nellie Fox or David Eckstein mis-hits the pitch and the SS/2B is calling for the ball.

People used to ask me why I wasn't happy with that 300+ yard drive down the middle of the fairway. Great result but I knew I had missed it; they could not understand how I could miss and still outdrive their best shot by 40 yards. I always advised people not to try to outdrive me because then they are playing my game, not theirs and their score would suffer. I simply had more natural power than most plain and simple; it was what I was very good at. Putting...totally different thing; I was horrible; never did win a putting contest past my teens. I knew that and played to my strengths accordingly to succeed.

That is point about Ashburn. In contract negotiations one year he was being critcicized by the team's management about his line drive singles not going far enough. His reply was that if they went any further they would be outs. His approach worked for him well enough to have the most hits in the MLB during the decade of the '50s. He was 170 lbs soaking wet but could run with anybody; that's what got him to the MLB and kept him there.

Good post, power.

Thanks Power, just ordered it for my son.

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
Thanks Power, just ordered it for my son.

You're welcome! There is some great stuff on there and a little science too, lol. I bought that, Epstein's tapes and Ted Williams' tape at around the same time looking for clips of all the greats. I didn't even know who Mike Epstein was, but he had some good stuff on those tapes too, some not so good also, but like most things, you take the good with the bad.

Any hitting coach should strive to get every hitter to hit with more velocity and with more frequency. Evan line drive to ground ball hitters need more ball velocity to give the ground ball a better chance to get through the infield. Even a power hitter needs more frequency of hard contact to maximize production.

A speed guy with little power should be taught to hit from line drives down to ground balls and a power guy should be taught to hit line drives to elevated balls.

Thirty three percent of all hits in MLB are extra-base hits. Extra-base hits result in run production. (So do errors and walks).

Most high school kids are not that relatively fast nor do they have that much power. Therefore, the coach has to teach the squad what would be best to try to win. That is the coaches judgment.

I do think it is a shame when ALL kids are taught the same. I heard a coach talk about a college power hitter who was drafted twice and is now playing pro ball. He said the kid batted .260 in high school with him as coach. The problem was the huge power hitter worked mostly on ground balls, hitting opposite field, bunting, etc., with everyone else. He was wasted in high school.

Take the fast players and enhance their game around speed. Take the power guys and enhance their game around power. The other guys make up the bulk of the team -- use your best judgment, they probably will not get past high school ball anyway and will remember the wins.

I think a lot of what my son is being taught is emphasising the compact swing, getting the bat into the strike zone quickly and trying to generate backspin on to a ball. That involves almost taking a striking down on the ball position. Is this what we are talking about?

It's hard to tell what you are describing. Normally backspin would be caused by hitting the bottom half of the ball. Striking down on the ball wouldn't give you that effect.

From the terms you mentioned, I'll give you my understanding of them.

The compact swing with a short to the zone approach would require swinging down to the zone from the point that the bat is held. This of course would cause the bat head to travel towards the catcher before coming forward.

The force in the swing is generated from the raised bat position to just in front of the batter's body. This puts the bat on target and allows bat speed to develop. After generating that force down to the zone, the rest is followthrough.

This can cause a level bat path or an upper cut bat path. The more level the bat path, the more likely the batter will hit the ball right at the fielders. The slighly uppercut swing will give the ball some lift and some back spin.

Striking down or chopping down on the ball would be a definite grounder (unless it is a Baltimore chop). Rather than chopping down at the ball, the batter might as well bunt.

According to THT, the MLB average groundball out rate was 74 percent in 2007 and 2008. By comparison, the MLB average flyball out rate was 83 percent in 2007 and 84 percent in 2008. Another way of looking at those percentages is to say that batters hit about .260 on groundballs and .160-.170 on outfield flyballs (excluding home runs).

The line drive out rate was 29 percent in 2008, meaning batters hit roughly .710 on these batted balls. The hit rate on infield flies is nearly non-existent as pop-ups are converted into outs 99 percent of the time.

When it comes to batting average, line drives are king, followed by groundballs, outfield flyballs, and infield flies. Put it all together and National and American League teams hit .298 and .302, respectively, on balls in play in 2008. NL and AL clubs had BABIP of .301 and .305 in 2007.

However, when it comes to production, flyballs are more valuable than groundballs. To wit, including home runs, line drives produced .40 runs in 2007 and .39 in 2008, while the average outfield flyball yielded .18 runs in 2007 and 2008. Meanwhile, the average groundball generated .05 runs per event in 2007 and .04 in 2008.

From the perspective of pitchers, all else being equal, groundball types tend to give up more hits but fewer runs than flyball types. Groundball pitchers generally allow more unearned runs, as I observed in February 2006, due to the greater frequency of errors on balls hit on the ground than in the air.

quote:

Originally posted by Wklink:
I think a lot of what my son is being taught is emphasising the compact swing, getting the bat into the strike zone quickly and trying to generate backspin on to a ball. That involves almost taking a striking down on the ball position. Is this what we are talking about?

Think about that. You hit the top of the ball, to get it to go up. You sure about that?

quote:

Originally posted by Wklink:
I think a lot of what my son is being taught is emphasising the compact swing, getting the bat into the strike zone quickly and trying to generate backspin on to a ball. That involves almost taking a striking down on the ball position. Is this what we are talking about?

No and Yes. "Showme" posted a great response to the point Quincy originally raised which was is it better to teach hitting fly balls or ground balls. I.E., which would produce the best results?

The point you raised concerns your boys Hitting Coaches teachings. I didn't for a moment think he or you were speaking literally "of striking down on the ball" but repeating terms used by those promoting that approach.

It strikes me odd that line drives, fly balls and home runs should be looked at as different animals.

If a batter hits a ball into the air (non grounder) he has a greater chance of getting a hit. All of the studies listed agree, but then try to classify home runs and line drives as non fly balls.

I wonder now why there was not a separation between ground balls, bunts and half swing dribblers.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
It strikes me odd that line drives, fly balls and home runs should be looked at as different animals.

If a batter hits a ball into the air (non grounder) he has a greater chance of getting a hit. All of the studies listed agree, but then try to classify home runs and line drives as non fly balls.

I wonder now why there was not a separation between ground balls, bunts and half swing dribblers.

Good points. Another stat that might be intersting to see and that is total bases on each averaged per batted ball in air and ball hit on ground. How many ground balls does it take to score a run on ground balls alone???

quote:

If a batter hits a ball into the air (non grounder) he has a greater chance of getting a hit. All of the studies listed agree,

Actually, as I interpert the findings, the MLB ground ball out rate was 74%, while the flyball out rate was 84%! The NCAA findings were similar. The reason for looking at Home Runs differently is that they are the only batted ball that a fielder doesn't have an opportunity to record an out on. They only account for, on average, 2% of flyballs anyway.

I can't agrue that line drives and Home runs both, "are in the air." I promise that both hitters and fielders understand that flyballs, line drives and Home runs are very different categories. As a hitter or a fielder, you know instantly off the bat which you are dealing with.

Just for giggles....

"When you think about it, a home run is a mistake. The idea is to
hit the ball hard, on a line, so the defense can't react to
it. Hit it high in the air, which is how most home runs are
hit, and most of the time it will be caught. It's a mistake."
- Matt Williams

"Many of Wright’s homeruns come “by accident” — meaning, he was simply trying to drive the ball, but hit it just right to impart the lift needed to carry over a fence."
-Found in "Met's Today" Online

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:

quote:

Since more hits are registered hitting into the air, why do coaches persist in teaching to hit grounders?

Quincy ... I believe you may have been misled or are probably including "line drives" as fly balls (most likely). But, they don't occur near as often as flies or ground balls.


A few years ago I saw some hitting stats based upon a two year study of all batted balls (in NCAA).
The results, generally speaking as I can't put my hands on this, were as follows;

FLY BALLS (account for approx. 41% of batted balls):
- Only 2% resulted in Home runs beyond the fence.
- BAvg on fly balls was less than .200 (about .186).
Conclusion; don't swing for the fences and if you hit the ball in the air, it will most likely be caught.

GROUND BALLS (account for approx. 44% of batted balls):
- BAvg on ground balls was slightly over .200 (about .210 I think).
Conclusion; statistically you are better served hitting a ground ball than a fly ball. There is the additional possibility of a fielding error (thrower and receiver) or a throwing error granting you a free base! The reason a Coach (particularly at the Youth level), would prefer ground balls to flies.

LINE DRIVES (accounted for less than 15% of all batted balls, I believe).
- An astounding 80% resulted in base hits!
Conclusion; Strive to hit line drives (preferably in the gaps!).

BAvg findings in MLB probably differs with Wood vs. the NCAA metal bats where more ground balls could "find the holes" quicker. But, would bet the instance of flies, grounders and line drives would be similar.

Prime9, this is the post of the year. Great info.

Line drives should be taught. If you have a small, very fast player, he should be taught to hit hard ground balls & line drives. Allot of those ground balls will turn into infield hits. I was one of those types of players when I played. Allot of my hits were infield singles (which was nearly as good as a double because I never got thrown out stealing 2B in my career).

It all depends on the type of player you are, as to what type of approach you should adopt.