Tebow Bill

This is going to be very interesting to follow. I'd love to hear some perspectives from this board.

My gut feel is that I don't like it.

Seems to open up way too many issues.

What is next? Kids being unhappy with the team at their school so they want to try out for another school?

Rich
www.playinschool.com

I figure that if a kid lives right next door to me and his folks pay the same taxes that I pay for schooling then their kid should have some rights within the school district. I don't home school but with two kids in public school I can see why people who have the means to do so would choose that option.

I'm not sure that I see your argument though Rich. Same rules would apply as with any other kid who attends school. If they live in the district then they play at the school that represents their area. How would it be any different than how it is for non-home schooled kids? In order to move schools then they would have to move houses. Same same...

NYT ran an article today on subject:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02...eams.html?ref=sports

Got a blast email message from the school PTA imploring everyone to let your rep know that this bill is bad for public schools and unfair. I responded to the writer that it seemed like everyone pays the same taxes and what difference did it make if a kid was home schooled (mine is not). The response was that this is not about money but that the homeschool kids would not have to meet the same requirements to play as a public school kid. Also saw folks complaining that home school kids did not have to sit in 5 classes every day and then come to try-outs / practice (implying that they are more physically prepared to compete on any given day - less worn out). I still think it is fine to let home schooled kids play if they can make the team.

I don't like it. Participation in high school sports begins early AM and goes all day - everyday. You follow the rules, do the work and adhere to the schedule or you don't play.

The tax dollars paid provides a school and programing. If you decide not to take advantage of it that's your choice.

JOEMKTG - thanks for sharing that article. Some awesome points.

Nova - First, let me be clear that I am not against home schooling in any way. I've worked with, taught, and coached hundreds of kids and I have to say that the the home school kids I've interacted with have been among the smartest, most mature, well adjusted kids out there. I would even consider the option down the road.

But as a former public school coach I know what it means to have your team underneath 1 roof. Being part of the school team is much more then just the wins and loss column. Its about representing your team walking up and down the halls. Its about learning responsibility and discipline and consequences for your actions.

Most coaches/schools have consequences and rules in place for being tardy or absent from school. How do you tell a kid he has to sit because he has 3 tardies which resulted in a detention meanwhile the kid who doesn't even come to school is not only on the team but in the lineup?

Every coach I know that is worth his salt is constantly checking in on classes. Making sure their players are not only there, but they are doing the right things. I can remember John Cole (current head coach UPenn) peering through class room doors making sure freshman were in class at William & Mary.

Perhaps next we'll see kids at J-Sarge that want to play for UVa. Both public institutions right?

Is this a function of our "every kid needs a trophy" society?

Again, I'm by no way against home schooling. But I think you need to live with the decision you make. There are plenty of options available.

And as a baseball forum, we are all aware that there are ample alternatives from a recruiting stand point. Perhaps Redbird can tell us a little about Josh Henderson?

Rich
www.playinschool.com

The arguments about accountability are good ones. The privilidge of participating for your high school team comes with some responsibilities that would not have to be adhered to in a homeschool environment.

Additionally, it can be a slippery slope - could a potentially academically inelligible student just dis-enroll from high school, reclassify as a "homeschooler" and then participate for their local high school team? Don't think it won't happen.

As for the taxes argument, would you consider it ok for a kid who chooses to attend a private school to be allowed to play for their public high school instead? They pay taxes too but choose an alternative education to the public school. Just like the homeschoolers.

Lastly, the majority of the kids we are talking about have parents who have chosen to avoid socializing with public school kids for a reason. It's a bit of a leap to say you aren't good enough to educate my child but I want them on the sports team with those very same teachers coaching them and those same public school kids hanging around with them.

What logical ju jitsu justifies that?

Thanks for the headsup Novabball13.

I agree this is a complicated issue. One thing is for sure.....I don't like the name of the bill. I have nothing against Tebow, but it seems our elected representatives had seized on an opportunistic branding of this bill to spin it in a postive light. I'm not buying it. Call it what it is...."Home school athletic eligibilty" or "I want my cake and eat it too?".

I see the benetits for the home schooled kids. What about the public school kids? For example my son may not like his AP history teacher. Can my kid opt out of 6th period AP History to be home schooled part time by my wife or I? My wife is a much tougher grader, so I think he'll want Dad. Where will the athletic and academic flexibilty between public and home school begin and end? I'd like to hear from educators/coaches not politicians on this issue.

Maybe we should be looking harder at why so many kids leave the public schools (including home schoolers) instead of why it will be too hard to open up an opportunity to play sports? If the public school systems hadn’t thrown God out, homogenized the classrooms to the point of being unendingly equal, spent so much time celebrating differences (instead of promoting achievement and excellence), etc, home-schooling wouldn’t even be on the radar. Perhaps this bill and the subsequent discussions will make a difference if we actually talk about the real issues whittling away at our public schools. Until they stop focusing on symptoms (especially the squeaky wheels) and start looking at cause, distractions like the Tebow Bill will keep coming up.

But I’d rather read posts about HS baseball. How many more days before first pitch?

It should be called the Kellam/Driller Recruiting Law. I blame some of the coaches for allowing this practice to happen in the beach, as well as the beach district principals commettie. Not the Home schooler law, but the recruiting warehouse that has been going on over there. The coach is a great guy, but as we all know, and coming from a parent, coaches cant control what a parent does and says as well as the recruiting practice that has been going on for over 8-10 years there.

I was an elected member of the House of Delegates for the 2002-2005 sessions. I supported the home schoolers in just about everything -- except this. With all due respect to my friend Rob Bell, who brought the bill, and to all my former colleagues who have supported it, I think it's a holy mess and it should never have gotten this far. I hope the Senate kills it.

To me, what the public schools offer comes as a package deal. If you don't like it and want to opt out, then subject to safeguards on making sure kids truly get educated, I am a big supporter of school choice, alternatives and freedom. But either you're in or you're out.

It's way too self-indulgent to start asking a large public enterprise to cater to your every whim. I'm out of the system, but in for sports? What's next, I want to be in the show choir, or the school play?

Suppose someone wants their kid to come to math class, but not to science class, because they want to teach their kids creationism instead of evolution. Where does all this end?

Suppose someone chooses to attend a private school, but he doesn't like its baseball team. Should he now get to come over to the public school to play, because his family "pays taxes"? How is that any different from the kid who finds the home school baseball team not to his liking?

The sports teams are, at their core, a camaraderie program of those who attend the school. The notion that you should be able to pass on the school, but then elbow your way in when it suits you, to me is letting people have their own way, to way too much of an extreme.

Not to mention, this approach almost certainly would mean the death of some perfectly good home school sports teams.

Again, I hope this is killed in the Senate.

Well Said Midlo dad!

"Ditto" Billy Buck's sentiments. . .

Might be time for a letter writing to my/our state reps.

No idea that this was such a controversial topic. LOL

I hear you on the camaraderie but I honestly think that that is a moot point. My son has played on summer teams that had as much or more camaraderie as any of his school teams and he spent NONE of his time under the same roof at school with any of them.

I also think that on the academic piece of being eligible that if the system is smart enough to figure out whether a home schooler qualifies to be enrolled in college then they can figure out if they meet the standards to play ball.

Anything outside of that can be dealt with via rules. And why can't we take an a la cart approach to education? What is wrong with that? It simply has to be managed. Does that mean that if I go to a brick and mortar college that I shouldn't be able to do on-line classes? We should stop students from traveling from the middle school to the high school to take a course because you have to take all your courses at ONE school?

I just think that as we move forward we have to adjust for the times. It works well in many places where it is already in place so just model the VA system after one of the many successful programs and move forwards. Yes, it will go through some bumps at first but I would bet that once in place it would soon be forgotten. And heck, the coach always has the option to cut the kid anyway. But something tells me that if that coach had a hurler in his area that was all kinds of nasty but was a home schooled kid that he would welcome him with open arms.

The camaraderie I was talking about is not limited to the dugout. It includes the people in the stands and the surrounding community.

NOVA,

Colleges have people whose job is only dealing with admissions and eligibility of those attending the college. High Schools do not have this as the coaches in many high schools are responsible for the initial eligibility of their athletes. Also there are so many different home school programs available each high school and district would have to spend the time and resources(dwindling with each year) to figure out how the standards would correspond to the standards required by the state for eligibility!

Not as easy as you would make it out to be!

Seems to me you shouldn't be able to cherry pick the good parts of public education. You are in or out. Simply decide. I say leave the spots on the team to the kids who pay their dues day in and day out in the halls of our public schools, good and bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
The camaraderie I was talking about is not limited to the dugout. It includes the people in the stands and the surrounding community.

Me either. I have as much camaraderie with the parents on those teams as any locally also. Maybe more since we are somewhat of a captive audience on a road trip and so we spend more time socializing. And since we are talking about local kids then why would you assume that the parents of a home schooled kid don't already have established friendships in the town. I just don't think its as big a deal as it is made out to be.

I'm just not a person who is resistant to change just because it disrupts my life. I adapt to change well. I just have not seen any reasons to ban it that cannot be overcome with a little effort. What I mostly see are arguments that reflect people not wanting the system that they have lived under for how ever many years being disrupted. I might be wrong but that's what my take on it and has been for a number of years. (So I'm not simply pointing a finger at folks posting here...)

Maybe my stance comes from knowing several players who are simply outstanding and yet this rule prevents them from competing. Yes, I know, the could compete if they attended school but the kid had NO voice in that decision. This was a parental decision based on a number of factors. I just also don't believe that we should then punish the kid further.

And to be honest, I don't see that it could possibly be any worse than kids who pick and choose private schools based on the quality of the baseball program. At least as a home schooler you would have to play for your local team unless your folks sold and moved. And I doubt that you would get a 5th year of eligibility either...

But the debate is good as it brings out points that maybe wouldn't be considered otherwise. As a taxpayer I can tell you that if it showed that it was financially not feasible then I might be convinced otherwise though. LOL

Doing the right thing isn’t always the easiest path. We've all seen examples and it's is a lesson we try to teach our kids. Accordingly, should we let policies tell kids and their families that we only support their personal decisions if they agree with or follow standards set by organizations and bureaucracies? Or even worse, continue to withhold sports as leverage to keep more kids from leaving the system? Though my kids attend public schools, I respect and support the choices Home School families make for their kids. Yes, this new law will create a number of things to resolve. But helping kids in our neighborhoods, towns, and state grow and develop to their full potential sounds like a good reason to give it a try. Who knows, opening this door might be the step that actually leads to some good changes in our schools.

While I have no idea how other implemented programs similar to this one have functioned (good or bad), my gut says this is a bad idea.

1. Is there an insurance liability issue if a home schooled athlete gets injured?

2. What are the criteria for a home schooled athlete to be eligible? Grades? Credit hours? What are the consequences if they do not comply?

3. What ramifications will there be when a home schooled athlete is cut from the team, for any reason? Or, more importantly, will coaches feel obligated to keep a home schooled athlete to avoid parental backlash?

4. Is it OK for a home schooled athlete to "use up" a roster spot, thereby displacing a public school athlete from the spot he would have otherwise earned?

I believe there are forks in the road that we all choose to take, decisions we make with an "eyes wide open" understanding of the consequences of those decisions, and the pros and cons associated with the choices. To me this is a classic case of "I want my cake and eat it too" syndrome.

Interesting. My son came home yesterday and said they had a debate about this very issue in his Government class. He argued on the side of "it's not a good idea". Many of the reasons he talked about were the same ones being discussed in this thread.

Here is what confuses me on the reasoning behind the bill in the first place. If your locality isn't listed, what is stopping someone from organizing and joining the Athletic infrastructure that is already in place for homeschooling?

http://vahomeschoolers.org/support/


Virginia Homeschool Sports Groups/Teams
Central Virginia Homeschool Athletics Association

CVHAA's goal is to provide the opportunity for homeschooled students of middle and high school ages the opportunity to play on competitive junior varsity and varsity athletic teams both within the Virginia Christian Athletic Association (VCAA) and against other private schools.
Fairfax Home School Athletic Association

Competitive sports opportunities for Home School students in Basketball, Football, Baseball, S****r, and Volleyball.
Contact: FHSAA.
Hampton Roads Generals Football Team

Hampton Roads Generals are a Christian high school football team made up of homeschooled and private schooled young men, ages 13-18 from the Virginia Peninsula, Middle Peninsula, Williamsburg, and surrounding areas. We practice in Newport News. Our 2010 season will begin in May of 2010. Games will be played in Newport News, Hampton, Williamsburg, Gloucester, and surrounding areas.
Contact: Connie.
Lynchburg Homeschool Athletics Association (LHSAA)

| City of Lynchburg | Amherst | Bedford | Campbell |
The Lynchburg Home School Athletics Association (LHSAA) is the premiere venue for home school sports in the greater Lynchburg area. LHSAA seeks to promote Christian principles through quality athletic programs that draw out the best in our players both spiritually and athletically. Currently the LHSAA fields teams in s****r and basketball and is interested in expanding into new areas as the Lord provides.
Contact: LHSAA.
Richmond Spirit Athletics

Richmond Spirit Athletics is non-profit organization which provides home educated students with the opportunity to participate in organized interscholastic sports activities with other schools within the Richmond, Virginia area. Their major objective is to further the advancement of youth through fair competition and interaction with Varsity, Junior Varsity and Middle School sports activities. Their players compete in the Virginia Commonwealth Athletic Association Conference (VCAA)
Virginia Homeschool Running

Cross Country, Track & Field & Road Racing for homeschoolers across Virginia. Teams include: Loudoun County Homeschool Running/Nova Athletic Club, Peakview Pacers/Central Virginia Homeschool Cross Country, Alexandria Homeschool Track & Field/Cross Country, Southeastern VA-Homeschool running - FIAMAR and Fredericksburg Homeschool Running-FIAMAR
Contact: Virginia Homeschool Running, (757) 218-2767.

I read most of the posting but rarely do I post. I am posting not to suggest that I know what the right answer is, but purely to provide 1 real life example.

My son is a junior in HS, he has played competitive baseball aau etc. since he was 10. He has played varsity baseball since he was a freshman and has played some showcase since the summer after his freshman year. Our family knows about every parent and every player on his high school team and many on competing HS teams. I guess you could say he has grown up with these kids. I have coached for years; we are what some would consider a "baseball family".

Home schooling... my kid..... never, no way, he needs to go to school, participate, get the required grades, and play ball. Well....didn't quite work out that way;

He has some medical issues that unfortunately got worse over the last couple of years that have made attending Public or Private school a poor option for him. This was difficult for me and for him to accept. Home schooling is the only option and this year HS baseball is not. The good news; education is what comes first and home schooling creates the right environment for him to be successful learning.

In our situation Real teachers provide the teaching. Real tests are given, Real studying is required. He studies what other juniors study, it just goes much faster with better outcomes. It is difficult to argue against a 1 to 1 teacher to student ratio!

After reading this those that are against allowing these kids to play will probably still be against it, but be sure if he is able to play then I know of at least one kid that this bill will help!

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
To me, what the public schools offer comes as a package deal. If you don't like it and want to opt out, then subject to safeguards on making sure kids truly get educated, I am a big supporter of school choice, alternatives and freedom. But either you're in or you're out.

+1! I couldn't agree more.

Whitney Houston is dead. Although I did not own any of her movies, any of her music. She gave us with out question the greatest rendition of our Star Spangled Banner. Go check out the 1991 super bowl and tell me if that does not cause the heart to skip a beat. Her death while tragic was not unforeseen with the life she had adopted. That’s the small picture, the big picture is that we now have to endure performances from those who do not even know the words.

What’s this have to do with Home school or baseball or anything on this page for that matter. I would bet we all would love to be able to find away for Pirates boy to play ball again. Home schooled as a result of a need and not an avoidance. Pirates is right. Baseball and all sports end all too soon. The focus should be on academics, on preparing our kids for life after sports. Pirates boy is the small picture, the big picture is the abuse that will descend on home schooling . How long until the pitcher or backfield or basketball team are all home schooled. To many times we look for the shortcut, despite being told there are no shortcuts in life….

Reading letters to editor from various papers from around the state I submit a couple of humorous albeit relevant observations

We pay the same taxes so...

...we should be able to get help from the teachers as needed, use classrooms, get college help from guidance dept, use text books as needed, take part in class plays, attend dances...

...I can place my son in in-school detention as necessary

...using this logic, as a tax payer, I should be able to use a police cruiser if my car breaks down

...Can people who choose to live on private lanes able to barrow municipal snow removal equipment

A few thoughts....
a home schooled pitcher throwing 95 wants to play on his local HS team....how many think the HS would be hesitate to take him?

What happens if a home school kid tries out and gets cut? Will a law suit ensue?

What if a player who has been on the team gets cut in favor of a home schooled player? Will a law suit ensue?

What if a home schooled child's parent wants their child to go to the local HS and participate in the free lunch program? Eat for free and then go home?

I believe this will be bad for high school baseball. It will become a total disaster for high football and basketball. Cheating and lying amoung adults will become rampant. It has nothing to do with academics. It is totally about sports and the search for the almighty scholarship.

I understand that this is already the rule/law in over 1/2 the states in the US - it doesn't seem to have had a negative impact elsewhere...

Had an interesting discussion with a friend of ours who is a teacher at the local middle school.

She stated that part of the problem is the school system is required by law to have the teaching curriculum on file whereas the home school parent does not. All they have to state is yes, there is one.

Retriever Dad brought up some good questions:

quote:

1. Is there an insurance liability issue if a home schooled athlete gets injured?

There shouldn't be. In our school district the student is required to have some sort of health insurance coverage. No insurance, no play. They do offer an accidental plan for a nominal fee (about $22) for those that do not have insurance. It is available from a company outside of the school division.

quote:

2. What are the criteria for a home schooled athlete to be eligible? Grades? Credit hours? What are the consequences if they do not comply?

I can only relate what our school division does. As part of the process, the student has to turn in a completed physical form to the AD. The AD then verifies whether the student is grade eligible - that his grades meet the minimum standards to be able to play any sport. If at any time his grades fall below the minimum, he becomes ineligible and is "off" the team. Once it is determined the student is grade eligible to play, a "yellow" card is issued to the coach. He won't be allowed to even go to tryouts until the yellow card is issued.

quote:

3. What ramifications will there be when a home schooled athlete is cut from the team, for any reason? Or, more importantly, will coaches feel obligated to keep a home schooled athlete to avoid parental backlash?

Coaches and AD's have to deal with parental backlash all the time regardless of the sport. I don't see why it would be any different with a home-schooled vs schooled student. If the student-athelete is good enough this won't be a concern.

Locally, we've had more of a good-ole-boy network problem than home-schooled vs schooled problem. Some parents trying to "work the system" to ensure their child will make the team and play. Usually see this with students who may be on the bubble when it comes to try outs.

quote:

4. Is it OK for a home schooled athlete to "use up" a roster spot, thereby displacing a public school athlete from the spot he would have otherwise earned?

Should it even matter?

All that said, I disagree with the Tebow bill. If you opt out of the school system then you lose the privilege of participating in extra curricular activities including sports. Period.

I don't buy the tax argument either. By that argument, once my children finish school, I shouldn't have to pay any taxes that fund the schools? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. (kind of wish it did, but it doesn't)

I just don't see the difference between a home-schooled kid and a private school kid.

School teams are ancillary activities of the community that is the particular school. If you choose not to be a part of that community, I support your right to make that decision. But saying you don't want to be a part of something, except when it really suits you, is just too self-centered for my tastes.

I can just see the team's classmates at the game: "Go Billy! Go Tommy! Go ... who's that guy?"

The whole taxpayer thing doesn't fly, either. It's never made a difference for the private school kids. Taxes are something you pay whether you use a particular service or not. Lots of childless people pay taxes that support schools. I pay for fire stations but I've never had a fire; where do I go to complain about that?

Not to mention, at least in our area, the sports programs have to be self-funded. No taxpayer money involved in operations at all. Indeed, James River had to raise private money to build its own field.

Maybe we should condition home-schooled participation upon their ponying up their fair share of those expenses. They seem to be under the impression they've already paid, but it just ain't so.

Midlo I agree 100%. I look at home schooling as the exact same choice that we made to send our kids to private school. Our baseball program doesn't compare to the local public HS. Will my son be able to tryout for the local HS team? If you choose not to use the public school then you also choose not to participate in the athletics. Want them to play....send them to school!

I have been watching this thread with some interest...my own thoughts being that if this bill is passed it would be a step in the wrong direction. I am really against the whole sense of entitlement that seems to be more prevalent today than when I was growing up. My parents taught me to believe that when you made a decision you lived with it. That you were not entitled to anything more than the guy next door.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Midlo Dad:

I can just see the team's classmates at the game: "Go Billy! Go Tommy! Go ... who's that guy?"

(funny)

I pay for fire stations but I've never had a fire; where do I go to complain about that? (good analogy and funny)
/QUOTE]

Killed by the Committee:
Link to article

Glad to hear of that.

Amen!

"Amen" really!!! Then here are a few more “Amen's” to add to the list:

"Amen" to the same Virginia Senate that killed the House Budget bill and the Tebow bill.
For now the first time in Virginia History we don't have a Budget. Same as the Federal Government, so
“Amen” to the Federal Government.

A few more “Amen’s”
“Amen” to the same Virginia Administration that wanted to do an invasive ultrasound on women before they consider having an abortion. I am sure that would have worked out well!
“Amen” to an America that now spends roughly the same amount of money on Welfare as it does on education.
“Amen” to the new planned $744,000 s****r field at Gitmo for Terrorists.
“Amen” to those receiving public assistance, don’t pay taxes and their kids are eligible to play public school sports.
“Amen” to the illegal aliens that live in America that also don’t pay taxes and their kids can also play public school sports.
"Amen" for the IEP and Homebound programs that are already in place in our public school system that allow kids to get around the grade eligibility rules.
Clearly we would not want to turn our schools into an "entitlement" for those outcast home school Americans!
“Amen” to Health Reform, my monthly premiums keep dropping and dropping, I hardly know what to do with all the extra money.

Our elected officials get it right Every time. LOL!!!

So it is okay for parents to not pay taxes, to not legally be in America, to be entitled to Public schools and all of their resouces and play sports but not those Americans that pay taxes and choose to Home School for special needs reasons that are targeted at helping the kids! All righty then.
Everyone go back to work cause these folks are counting on your money.