Temper issues with 12 year old ......make a change next spring?

We hear it over and over again. Baseball is a game of failure. Things don't go your way - bad calls, other players mess up, you mess up. That's just a fact of the game, and he needs to accept it as a part of a game.

As for the coaches making too much of it, they are right to get on this now. He should really be able to control his temper before big diamond time - you won't see many hotheaded players at the higher level. He doesn't want that reputation.

I agree with you, you won't see as many tempers at the larger field, partly due becasue they wait until they get in the dugout to release.
He does not get upset with other players failures, only his own. I think all players handle the failure differently, but his handling of it, is not a healthy way to go about releasing the frustration. I'm sure other players have had the same issue and have had to learn some techique to deal with it. For some players slapping their hands is enough, or starring out into space. I don't want to stop the passion and love for the game, I only want him to accept failure as part of the game, ( like you said) and find a better way to release the emotion. I try to tell him to turn the failure into a learning experience. I'm really looking for methods to channel the frustration to something else.

Somewhere I read a piece by Ripkin Jr. on this subject. He actually likes kids that get frustrated with their own failure (as opposed to the failure of others) and while he is anxious for the players to learn to controll the frustration / anger - he said it was a key component in the drive of many successful players and cautioned that the goal was to remove the inappropriate displays but not the competative spirit. Intersting perspective from a pretty respected source IMHO.

Is the boy's 'poor behavior' limited to the baseball field? If so, it could be the his way of showing disappointment that he let team, coach, mom and dad down.

quote:

Originally posted by bacdorslider:
I'm wondering if I should let him play on the bigger field with his 14 year brother's team next summer. He does not want to play on the small field next summer. I have told him that it will be a challenge, but it appears his attitude and performance is better with older kids on a bigger field.
Maybe the older players are keeping him in check, maybe he does better with better players.

Lets, hope the older players help....

14 is the lowest level I do in the summer....let him know that I, and most of my level umpires, will not tolerate that behavior...(throwing helmets, gear)....many youth orgs have rules against it and I will eject him, now that being said, I have a very low ejection rate, but I dont tolerate that....one of my only 2 EJ's this whole year came from a youth batter throwing his bat against the backstop fence....

maybe you can put it that way to him....that the umpires at the higher levels will not let him get away with it....I dont like cleaning up a coach's discipline problems, but I have and have been thanked by the coach later for tossing his bad boy.....

lets hope he can control the outbursts without losing the competitive fire....

piaa_ump would you eject a player for throwing a helmet in the dugout?

Let me clarify, son does not do this after every play or at bat....if he is in an RBI situation and and feels he let his team, coaches down he gets angry and may toss a helmet in the direction of his equipment bag...he is not throwing things at other players....and he has not had an ump warm him. His coahces do not like it, and I agree with them, if they do not want to see it, and it's their team, then he needs to deal with it.....I'm looking for ways to deal with it other than throwing a helmet and getting the coaches upset with him. It's now developed into a situation where they have a lid on him so to speak and they are looking for something to happen...I will say this ....he does not look at his dad and cry like I have seen some do.

I have seen many kids like this. Some cry, some throw things, some do both. All of them were good at baseball and loved the game.

Some grew out of it at 8, some at 12, some in HS.

I am no mamby-pamby Dad, and I'm not convinced they really can stop it until they hit that maturity point.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bacdorslider:
piaa_ump would you eject a player for throwing a helmet in the dugout? QUOTE]

well, I'll give you the rule quote from NFHS and then my opinion....

NFHS rule 3-3-1m: Players may not deliberately throw a bat, helmet etc to show their disgust..

Penalty: ejection

In or out of the dugout does not matter....its covered under the rule and ruled on by the umpire which extends our authority over the onfines of the field....

Now, in the dugout, I'd probably just tell the coach to "get a handle on that player"...or I will... and 99% of the time that suffices....Im not known for quick ejects, but I am known that "if you got to go, you go".....

I was just trying to give you another tool to address the issue...fiery kids want to play...and not getting to play/participate can be a big motivator....

As to no 12U umpire even warning him, much of what is allowed in or goes on in 12U is not tolerated/permitted higher up the chain....

Many NFHS rules are designed with sportsmanship and safety in mind.....

Just my .02

This was my sone as a 13 year old last year at this time. Little bit different situation. He was small for his age and had not started growing at the same rate as the other boys. He would get frustrated when he could not preform or "let his team down." We talked about it his coach talked about it. This summer he grew "some" still the smallest on his team, but he has matured a lot on his own. Fortunatley it looks like he grew out of it. With our part of it is that his older brother even though he was the smallest as well never had these stuggles. I made it clear he was his own man and should not be comparing himself to his older brother. They were different players with different styles.

As has been mentioned its great to see the drive in such kids, but someone or something has to grab their attention! In so many cases, tantrum throwing youth players tend to weed themselves out of the game. Every time I've witnessed such a breakdown at the school ball level, the player was not playing the next game, & in one case, the player never made it back into the starting nine. Am also not sure if having your son play up two years up is the solution.

I may be a little harsh in my perspective. Are you trying to rationalize or justify his bad behavior (throwing helmets, bats, brooding around) by giving that behavior another label; i.e. "competitive spirit?"

IMO; that's a slippery slope. I know with my children there were certain things or behaviors that were "non-negotiables." One, for the athlete, was bad grades and or boorish, immature behavior on the field.

If you don't fare well academically then you don't play. If you can't behave in a mature manner on the field, you don't play. Once the non-negotiable ground rules were out there for all to see, there were rarely any problems because the "penalty for non-compliance was swift!

The idea that performance is inhibited by one not throwing things , yelling, screaming or punching when it's not going well, is kind of absurd, isn't it?

I wouldn't change anything you're doing right now. I'm like Ripken and want a kid with a little fire in his belly and I'll give the guys some freedome in the dugout to release some frustration. They can't break equipment, punch things or do anything to another team mate. They want to toss a helmet onto an equipment bag or shove it into the helmet rack kinda hard I'm not going to worry about it until it breaks my three rules.

Baseball is played with passion and desire and there will be hard emotions from failure. The purpose of youth coaches is to help kids learn to direct or control as they release it (like someone said above). When it becomes a temper tantrum then we got problems because now you're involving the other team, umps and fans seeing your behavior. That aspect is wrong and should never be tolerated.

I played with passion and made a spectacle of myself on occasion. It embarassed me and it helped me learn to channel things better. As I got older I got better because it will get better with maturity as long as coaches / parents don't let it go down the temper tantrum road.

Generally speaking - this is a kid with some talent who has high expectations of himself when he plays with same age kids. But move him up a level or two he probably gets that he's not the best anymore and the expectations come down to a more realistic level.

I say just guide / direct right now and see if he works out of it. But if he starts throwing tantrums then step in.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
there were rarely any problems because the "penalty for non-compliance was swift!

And harsh! Acting up, or whining, was punished with "Let's go. We're outta here." Didn't mater when, where, how much it cost, how far from home. No exceptions. One "look" was all you got. Two looks meant "That's it. Home, to bed." By four or five, this was well understood.

I have spoken to older players who say by releasing their frustration they are able to calm themselves and continue to play the game in control.

I wonder in young players if its to cover up their embaressment when they don't come through

[QUOTE]Originally posted by coach2709:
Generally speaking - this is a kid with some talent who has high expectations of himself when he plays with same age kids. But move him up a level or two he probably gets that he's not the best anymore and the expectations come down to a more realistic level.

Spot on coach2709 , last Friday he sat in the dugout for 5 innings during his brothers game. I told him that if he helped the 8th grade catcher by warmming up pitcher between innings and gave the catcher time to get his equipment on, then I would try to work him in. Well, I put him in during the 6th inning of a 7 inning game, and he hits a double gets an RBI , steals third and goes home on a balk.... we win 5-4 he's riding high....no issues...

As far as throwing fits, and being a disruption that's not the case here....he does get mad and throw his helmet. After the helment throwing he came in to close , and struck out the side. It's like a roller coaster ride.

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:
I wonder in young players if its to cover up their embarrassment when they don't come through

Like laying on the ground, 'hurt', for five minutes after letting a three run grounder go under their glove, then standing up to cheers and clapping? (oldie, but goodie)

I would imagine that just about every kid playing competitive baseball has that fire in their belly. Some kids have trained themselves better not to show their emotions. In the three years my son has played for his high school team, 3 separate players have broken their hands punching walls because of that "fire." One actually needed surgery.

I watched my son learn to handle frustration. He learned it as a young kid playing video games. He used to cry because he was so frustrated. Literally, cry. Those stupid videogames taught him to keep trying. Unbelievable.

Some people are wired to handle frustration, some have to learn it. I told my son early on that if he threw his equipment or hit his bat on the ground, I was coming into the dugout and pulling him out, then we were getting in the car and driving home. Thank goodness I've never had to do it, and now that he's 17, I think (hope) I'm in the clear.

From time to time you will read about college coaches looking for composure. There are pieces on this forum where scouts have given players credit for pushing forward after striking out, being lit up by a team, or making an error.

The good news is, this player is only 12, and his parents are interested enough to post on this forum and get input. I predict that things will smooth out by this time next year.

Bacdor,
This has become a very interesting thread. Lots of good feedback from lots of good baseball people. One could pick and choose from several bits of info and come away with a number of vastly differing resolutions. Several imply that it is a maturity thing, he'll grow out of it, it's good to see fire in ballplayers. Others state that the coaches are right to get on this now, tantrum throwing youth players tend to weed themselves out of the game, you need hard and fast rules.

I don’t know the severity of the issue with your son, other than you think it is potentially bad enough that you have decided t seek others’ advice. I will tell you the bit in this thread that gets my attention...

Your quote... “As far as throwing fits and being a disruption that’s not the case here... he does get mad and throw his helmet. After the helmet throwing, he came in to close, and struck out the side. It’s like a roller coaster ride."

IMO, I fear that you are allowing his good play and abilities to somehow factor in to how you deal with the behavior issues. I’ve seen this done and have been guilty of it myself in the past. You are not doing the player or the young man any favors. They should be totally separated. I know it can be tough to think you may risk altering the young boy’s desire to play, affecting the good baseball relationship you two may have, etc., but don’t allow that to interfere with the bigger lessons that should be learned. Although, certainly maturing will occur, I agree with the folks that say hard and fast rules should be implemented and strictly adhered to.

It should be made clear to him that teammates, coaches and umpires don’t like to see that type of behavior and it does affect the overall energy of the team, even if he only pouts about himself. The hope is that he continues to be one of the better players. This means that the others will look to him to lead by example.

As far as any suggestions for how he may let out his frustrations, you can throw out several suggestions – yell into his hat or glove, go out of the dugout and yell, whatever. But the important thing is that whatever he does, he immediately comes back into the team with an attitude of “ok, that’s over, let’s get right back at it, guys” approach.

As far as playing with the older boys, yes, young kids are less likely to act out when among an older group. But I don't think this directly addresses the issue and I would not make a decision based on this alone.

cabbagedad, you are correct, and I think over the past couple of years, he has been given a "pass" due to his abilities, and that coaches were thinking well he needs to mature....I was hoping he would grow up a little, but now I think he needs to learn.... it seems at first he got away with some bad behavior due to his abilities.

But now I feel that I have to nip it, so that he can someday play HS ball.

After reading the posts... I think the coaches, I and the player are all at fault.

I will sit him down and tell him, "look you are a good player, and you enjoy playing, but if you have another outburst I'm taking you home" Maybe I'll ask him if he thinks his brothers HS coach would put up with that behavior.

Good advice and comments here. This highlights the importance of having coaches who know how to treat a kid like this who is talented, accustomed to success and very competitive. These kids see things differently from the average player, they simply care more, have probably bailed out the team on occasion, and have been stars in their own little universe. No excuse for tantrums as many have stated. Time for the transition to more mature behavior. Personally, I have observed that in many instances, a good coach has much more success in correcting this behavior than the dad. (This last comment is not directed at bacdoor.)

I have a VERY competative son. We faced frustration issues when he was younger and dealt with them in a severe fashion. A funny story comes to mind from when he was MUCH younger - maybe 9 years old?

In rec ball my son was quite the hitter (as were most folks sons who post here). Playing in a close game he was up to bat with the tying run at third(not the last inning). There were NOT two outs - but most thought my son would drive in the run with a sac fly if nothing else. After fouling off two pitches he struck out looking at a pitch that he never even considered might be called a strike. As he walked back to the dugout he mouthed the words "that was not a strike" and hit the fence with his bat more that once. I was mortified and shocked. The coach indicated to the umpire that the coach would "take care of it". I walked to the duggout and asked the coach to bench my son for the rest of the game. He did not ( more worried about winning the game.) I spoke to my son and explained that he needed to appologize the the team - the coach - and yes - the umpire. He had no trouble with appologizing to the coach and team but was not anxious to appologize to the Umpire as son was %100 certain that the pitch was not a strike. We talked a little and after the game my son went to the umpire and appologized for his behavior. The umpire was GREAT - he spent 10 minutes talking to my son about the importance of controlling your emotions on the field - about not wanting to have a reputation as a hot head - and about the importance of not making enemies of umpires particularly when you are a pitcher (son was/is). After that they shook hands and my son walked over to me we started to walk away. The umpire motioned for me to return without my son (who was happy to go get his team snack) and thanked me for directing my son to appologize and explained that he appreciated the opportunity to have that conversation. We spoke for a few moments and as I began to leave he said with a grin, "Oh, and by the way, dont tell your son I said this - but he was right - that pitch was NOT a strike - it was several inches off the plate - I made a mistake but you just cannot change your mind on something like that after the fact." That umpire and my son were always friendly after that and made efforts to speak to one another when appropriate. I've thought many times about how well that umpire handled that situation and what an important impact that had on my son.

I have a son that is nearly 40 years old. Great person, but he has trouble controlling his temper.

Come to think of it... He also had trouble controlling his temper when he was 12 years old. Figured he was just competitive and would grow out of it.

Suggest you nip it in the bud somehow, if that is possible! I'm not sure it is possible, though.

Idea!!! How about trying to capture the temper tantrums on video and letting him see himself? Hopefully, he won't like what he sees! If he does, that idea might backfire!

Unfortunately, the best players in the world sometimes display these temper tantrums on National Television for all young kids to see.

Wilson said he felt so much better after he let off some steam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkFOgF9Mmdo

I thought that your youngest son had growth plate issues, why is he even playing?

I have seen many players kind of lose their temper with their mistakes, my own included. It's not uncommon and it's not abnormal for players that are pretty intense individuals (see above).

The difference is that a 12 year old needs to understand that it isn't respectful (of the game, coaches, teammates) to act in a certain way and there can be consequesnces, when he's old enough to know what they can be, than it's his choice.

I am not sure I would try to compromise, you (the coaches) lay the ground rules (what you decide) and if he doesn't follow them than he learns the consequences.

Great story. Reminds me of another great umpire story. I was helping coach a group of 11-12's in a local rec league. We had one kid who had potential, but also had an attitude issue. One day the kid is hitting and gets hit by a pitch that wouldn't break glass. He proceeds to throw his bat down and glares at the pitcher as he walks towards first base. (Emulating something he had seen on TV). He gets about 10 feet when the ump yells "Get back here." Kid walks back to umpire who then tells him "Pick it up and put it down like you're supposed too." Kid, very embarrased, complies and runs to first. He never showed his butt on the baseball field again.

quote:

Originally posted by YesReally:
I have a VERY competative son. We faced frustration issues when he was younger and dealt with them in a severe fashion. A funny story comes to mind from when he was MUCH younger - maybe 9 years old?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TPM:
Wilson said he felt so much better after he let off some steam.

I thought that your youngest son had growth plate issues, why is he even playing?

TPM the 3rd son has the growth plate issues this is the 4th son

UPDATE: Last night son comes up to me and says that he got chewed out by the head middle school baseball coach in the lunch room in front of several 8th grade baseball players.

Conversation:

Head Coach "Hey I want to know what you are doing down there leaving the bullpen tarp off?"

Son "I did not leave the bullpen tarp off coach"

Head Coach "Are you on the 6th grade team? Did you not see your name on the cut list last August?"

Son "Yes sir"

Head Coach " Are practicing down there this fall? Are you a pitcher?"

Son 'Yes Sir"

Head Coach " Then take care of, I don't want to go down there and see that tarp off that bullpen mound again"

Son " Yes Sir"

He as was upset about it, and told me again, that HE did not leave the tarp off. So I asked him what he planned on doing about it.

and he said I going to tell my teammates, what ever happens we have to make sure we have the tarps down.

This coach might just have his number.

This thread just gets better and better. The stories are great.

There's a pitcher on my son's 18U team who got through the system without enough, um, tough love. Last weekend the team opened with a double header, and this kid is pitching the second game. He gets chewed out twice by the coach. The one relevant to this thread was delivered in the dugout by the coach who ripped him a new one. Not screaming, but loud enough. Basically called the kid out for every visible response he had to a call by the ump. The coach said "every time you are doing that you are showing up the ump". No way the ump didn't hear it.

The coach established his authority. The ump felt supported. The pitcher got his emotions under control and had a strong outing.

quote:

Originally posted by bacdorslider:


He as was upset about it, and told me again, that HE did not leave the tarp off. So I asked him what he planned on doing about it.

and he said I going to tell my teammates, what ever happens we have to make sure we have the tarps down.

Make sure he understands the tarps' being down is important. Don't let him think he has to do it just so he doesn't get yelled at. He's only 12, but not too young to learn how to care for the field.

Looks like the coach put him in charge.

quote:

Originally posted by bacdorslider:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TPM:
Wilson said he felt so much better after he let off some steam.

I thought that your youngest son had growth plate issues, why is he even playing?

TPM the 3rd son has the growth plate issues this is the 4th son

LOL, I can't keep up with how many you have!!!!! Now I know why 6 tics were needed.